Flight Risk

My Feedback: (1)

Regarding this thread. I happened across it looking for info on where to purchase Iron Cross decals.
There is much talk about the crosses being OK on scale models but I notice them on planes such as the GWS Slow Stick and Pico Stick electrics and other very non-scale planes.
Reason I was looking for the crosses. I have recently doped a Playboy Senior with Fokker Red Aero Gloss and thought it would look interesting with iron crosses. I am having second thoughts about adding crosses but don't know what other designs could be added which would look appropriate with the Fokker Red plus give the plane an old-timey look.

Rodnick

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

As far as I know, the crosses were used in the first big war and should not be offensive to ANYONE. It's the Swastika, adopted by the Nazis as an occult symbol of some sort that has the stigma attached so you shouldn't hesitate to use the crosses.

There once was a similar controversy over the use of the Swastika on Harvards and such owned by private pilots of the full scale variety. These were not even done up in the WW2 colour schemes so no point could be made for their use. In that case, and that case only, would I wonder just what the thinking was for its use.

As an aside, in Northern Ontario, there's a small town nearby named, Swastika. So named long before WW2. Pronunciation is with emphasis on the "i" as in SWAS-TEE-KA. I don't recall the origin of its use for the town name but I don't believe the name was changed during the war.

CCRC1

My Feedback: (13)

Flight risk, I addressed this in one of my earlier posts on this topic. The Iron Crosses are symbols used by Germany during World War One. The swastika, on the other hand, was the symbol of the Nazi party during World War Two. They are not interchangeable and they do not mean the same thing! If someone complains they are offended by Iron Crosses then they must have fallen asleep in history class. They would probably make the same complaint about German aircraft markings of the 21st century.
To answer your original question, Major Decals makes very nice Iron Crosses in a variety of sizes. I just used a set of them on a profile Albatross I built for a WW1 combat event. Its your airplane my friend, there is nothing wrong with the insignia you have chosen.

Flight Risk

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks for your replies 1705493 and CCRC1 for your input. I can't recall too much about WWI history but I know it was a bloody one, so there could still be some ill feelings towards anything German associated with that war, even without the Nazi's.
I will check out Major Decals and see if anything looks interesting. I've been surprised that the LHS's don't seem to carry much in the way of decals other than lettering.

I found this, maybe an alternative :-)

http://www.speedgear.com/orders/SGF1...mnumber=NF3987

3 Channel Brain

I have an idea; Didn't Isreal have ME 109's in the 1948 war?& I understand that Argentina had Fiesler Storch _may have had
ME109's also.. Talk about stirring up controversy.

hlallen867

My Feedback: (6)

I say keep them on if we start changing our history because it was ugly then I guess you better stop buying mitsubishi's because they built the planes that bombed Pearl Harbor.

scottrc

The IPMS Website has a link to aircraft of the Israeli Airforce. There are pictures of their 109s in it.

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

WOW, this would really open a can of worms, Kawasaki, BMW, Mercedes...the list goes on and on and on.

mulligan

Make's you wonder...

If we'd of lost WWII, I guess everyone would be cursing the image of the stars & stripes as representative of those slave-driving, guerrilla warfare-practicing evil beings from the USA.

Our lovely TV/radio media heavily promotes sensationalism and symbolism vs. substance.

Forget the symbols, address the issues.

- George

Papa Tango

Living in a "free" society comes at a price. That means you must live with the bad things that come with it (within reason).

When George Orwell wrote 1984 he was telling us what can happen when we over-correct for what we perceive as dangerous aspects of our society. The only way to make sure we can live in a danger-free society, where no-one can do wrong, is to have constant surveillance over everyone.....Big Brother!!!

Those who wish to do evil will find a way.
Those who wish to do good will win the day!!

The ultimate triumph of good over evil is immutable and built in to the workings of the cosmos. So don't sweat the small stuff!!

Put swastikas on your scale planes.... leave them off the others.

Good Luck to all!!

hlallen867

My Feedback: (6)

Pa Pa,

Very well put bravo!

Papa Tango

hlallen867,

If I can enrich the life of only one person every day, I am gratified in the extreme!!! Thank you for your kind words.

as always.... Luck to all!!

Stretch0069

Interesting thread.

I don't fly RC, but I enjoy watching them. I also enjoy the real thing. I also like history. Excuse me, ACCURATE history.
It is not the symbol that is bad. It is the person/people that hide behind/use it.
This is most likely not the place for this, and if its not I'm sure it will be removed, but it seems people in general remember only what they want to remember. Example: The "rebel" flag did not stand for slavery. It was the banner for a government. A government that believed that the states should have the power, not an all-powerful central government as we have now. The Federal government (USA) wanted to mandate, among other things, the abolishment of slavery. The Confederates (CSA), the "rebels", didn't like the Federal government telling them what to do. The CSA couldn't care less about slaves or not. Lincoln had slaves. So the whole "Civil War was fought about Slavery" argument is incorrect. BTW-Do you know how those people became slaves in the first place???? Do you know who brought those slaves to America, as well as Europe????

Did you know that the Japanese killed a LOT more people than the Nazis? Talk to Filipinos/Chinese/etc who lived through the Japanese occupations. You think the Nazis were bad. Eek.
I could go on and on. People just need to do a bit of research.

It all boils down to what side of the fence you are on. Its been said before in previous posts and they hit the nail on the head......some people just need to be offended.

Leave the symbols off your aircraft???? I'll be watching and talking to the person who has them on.

rich m

Can anyone tell me why Germany changed the Iron Cross to the Greek Cross at the latter part of WW1. I have read quite a bit about WW1 but have never seen a reference to it.

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

Yea, it all ends up depending on how two faced the person is that is complaining about the wrong doings of someone esle. I know people who try to tell everyone else how to raise their kids, yet that particular couples kids have been kicked out of school and not welcome back because of behavior problems. Same thing with the person trying to tell someone to not put a symbol on their model because it offends someone else, but then turns around and does something to offend someone else in the same manor.

I say, worry about yourself, and if something like an iron cross on a plane offends you, don't look at it. It is really noone elses place to tell a modeler he can't put it on a plane if he wants to. It is just a symbol.

Some say the peace sign is an inverted cross with broken arms and means something other than what people use it for. Does that mean people should quit using it? You will never make that one fly.

Isphius

My Feedback: (1)

People who are offended by a symbol strike me as being ridiculous. It is a symbol, and if you think it looks cool its ok. just because u have a maltise cross doenst mean you are a nazi. the swastika means peace and just because the nazis popularized it doesnt mean its new meaning is evil. And if that were true anyway how come the SS symbol didnt recieve a bad name?

Arebeck

My Feedback: (2)

It seems a though I am in the minority here. I personally will not build a model of a German plane or put Germany markings on a otherwise neutral plane like a stick. I have no problem with others doing so. My aversion to German markings has less to do with past history and everything to do with the present. I work for a company that is 50% owned by Germans and find that the treatment of American employees is less than satisfactory. If the company needs to save money we lop off several hundred Americans - because it is easy to lay us off. I shy away all German products - no cars, tools - I will not buy a Multiplex radio.

You could say that I am being petty and trite, but I have felt strongly about this from a personal view point and will continue on.

I will repeat that I have no issue what so ever if someone else wants to use German insignias or purchase German made products - I just choose not to.

FLYBOY

My Feedback: (11)

arebeck, you are in the minority. I don't have a problem with any symbol and plane of any kind no matter what it did in the past. I like your ideal about not pushing your thoughts on others because you don't want to use german stuff. At least you are not telling everyone else that they can't. That is what gets my goat. I hate it when someone comes along and says something like "you can't use that because I don't like...." or whatever. Everyone if free to make their own choices. I like the fact you made yours but don't push them on others. Thats cool! Wish there were more like you.

Glenn5150

I think I'll put some nice Star Trek arrowhead symbols on my next plane and see if Star Wars or Battlestar Galactica fans will get irked

J/K, I'm chiming in on the side of history.

(Besides, the Battlestar Galactica fans are already ticked off about the "re-imagining" of their precious show by the Sci-Fi network, their discussion board makes THIS one look like a field of peaceful daisies!)

Live Long and Prosper...or May the Force Be With You, or Keep Starbuck Away From the Chicks

Grampaw

I have some feelings on this insignia bit, but I won't go that here, however I do have something to add. Often if you look long enough you'll find a solution to your problem.

At a Scale Meet a modeler entering a bright red FW 190 with U.S. markings caused a quite a stir amongst the other entries.

The judges said you can't...the modeler said yes I can...the judges said but the FW 190 was a German WWII aircraft, usually in camouflage colors and carried German markings...I know that the modeler said, but mine was red, as you see it here...but there were no red FW 190s they shouted...then he opened his documentation and sure enough the pictures showed a bright red FW 190 in U.S. markings!

Turned out the real plane was a captured 190 that the Air Corps painted red with U.S. markings so they could fly and evaluate and not get shot down by Allied pilots who might come up on it while in flight. The red 190 was allowed to enter. Oh, the modeler was Frank Tiano.

cobra driver

The simple fact that guys who build model planes are wringing their little hands over the "agonizing" decision of "to swastika, or not to swastika" should demonstrate to the more knowledgeable among us how much this issue has overrun our culture. Ignorance, fortified by the none-to-subtle sledgehammer of Hollywood propaganda is indeed the chief culprit here. One guy says Hitler and his "deeds" are too close to us (geographically + culturally); that most Americans have roots in "old Europe", blah, blah. That's why we don't or (perhaps) shouldn't react as strongly to the display of the Japanese Sun insignia, blah, blah. Is he a VERY recent middleschool graduate? Using that reasoning, are not some Americans of Ukrainian descent? Or Latvian, Lithuanian, Estonian, Hungarian? Are those nations not "old Europe" also? They've been there awhile...Seems most people, Americans that is, ready to throw a hissy fit over a swastika go slack-jawed if asked to name the man who ruled Russia from 1924-1953. For the dullards out there, that time frame encompasses WW2 and the answer is: S-T-A-L-I-N. We could debate the facts and fiction of the (H)olocaust, the total number of victims which assign Hitler his level of "badness". Not necessary. Let's use the oft-repeated 6 million. According to U.S. Congressional record, from the 1959 hearings, 6 to 8 million people were starved/killed by the Soviets in Ukraine in the early 30's alone (Ukrainians and many others insist on 10 million) - long before the Nazis got up and running. Did we declare war on the USSR? Of course, not. But, in 1940, AFTER the Soviets had invaded and murdered tens of thousands of people in Estonia, Latvia (35,000 alone) and Lithuania, (and don't forget eastern half of Poland), AFTER they had attacked Finland, (and yet long BEFORE Pearl Harbor and Germany's December 11 declaration {a response to US lend-lease to Germany's adversaries of March '41}), Roosevelt sent 100 US pilots and P40s to Russia. He was going to have his war against Germany no matter what. As a former military pilot who flys (real) big aircraft, I've attended a number of airshows and other informal gatherings where often this issue of "brazenly" displayed swastikas comes up. Let a MiG or some other type with a BIG RED STAR taxi by and not a word said. Guess you can forgive your wartime Allies of any crime - even if they've committed bigger ones than your "enemy". The Truth is Hate to those who hate the Truth....

Crash_N_Burn

Besides the incessant advertising, pay-to-sell and general commercial feeling this site purveys, it is posts like the above that encourage me to not visit.

I miss all of you great guys but when I visit it feels like I’m in a Target store standing at the cash register.

I’m like most of you-----I just want to fly and talk about flying on a friendly web site. I didn’t want to talk about swastikas, but was provoked as it is a sensitive subject with me. I left because there is enough commercialism already in this world and I felt the quest for the almighty dollar had no place being blatantly waved in front of hobbyists eyes requesting, or suggesting, that they open their pocketbooks for the glory of R/C flying and the right to post or sell.

Miss all you great guys…maybe I’ll see you at the field.

IronCross

All this discussion over me ? I feel honored

pete913

You're darn right it's not necessary, it was proved beyond a shadow of a doubt by the Nazi's own well documented records of it during the Nuremberg trials. Anyone thinking that 6 million figure is a fanstasy needs to spend some time reading the transcripts of the trial. That 6 million figure is just the Jewish people BTW. There were millions more of every race and religion in Europe. Being 50 some years away from it doesn't make those facts any less real. As for the swastika issue, I have no problem with anyone using it on a scale airplane that's supposed to be using it. Using it as a symbol to glorify the past misdeeds of the ultra right wing Nazi party, several relatives of mine having died in europe to insure it's demise, I have a problem with.

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

Pete, I think you missed the point.

Cobra is saying that we hesitate to display a swastika, because Hitler killed 6 million people, yet Stalin killed 8 - 10 million but no one agonizes over displaying a Red Star.

To this, I say the Red Star is the symbol of Russia. It has been for many years, and still is. It is not just a symbol of "Stalin's Russia", which was only a small portion of their history.

The Swastika was a symbol of Nazi Germany, which was a dark hour in a nations otherwise great history. It doesn't represent years and years of great history and accomplishments like many other national symbols do. It has become a symbol of hatred and oppression. For that reason, it should IMHO only be displayed in a (an?) historical way (as in, on the tail of a model of an ME-109, or a museum showing a WWII exihbit etc.) Not proudly carried through the streets by a bunch of shaved headed idiots who think God favors one type of person over another (As if that concept itself doesn't show their lack of intellect).

That said, this thread is being closed down. It has long passed the point of being RC related, and had died a quiet death long ago until someone dragged it out again.

If you guys want to talk political history, take it somewhere else. This subject is a little too close to some people to keep hashing it out, and frankly, I think all that can be said in regards to RC has been said.