Kaoma

My Feedback: (4)

How much do you pay for the glow fuel in your area?
Have been flying for 5 years and always have used Coopower 10% and paid around $12.00 for a galon. I usualy buy 2-3 galons to last me a couple of months and recently I went to LHS to get my fuel...what a shock! Those are the average prices for Coolpower:

5%...$12.00
10%...$26.00
15%...$30.00

Most of the LHS in my area (5) are empty and complain of lack of customers/business...With those prices, I am adding my contribution to them being without business.
Most of them want to push electric stuff to the customers and when I did a one-to-one comparison between glow and electric the price is almost double. They can keep their kitchen blender items behind the counter for now. Worst, I will find a way to transport my gas plane to the field, but I will not keep them in business with those prices!

Pathous

My Feedback: (12)

About $18 a gallon here for powermaster 15%

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Glow fuel prices will rise as fast or faster than chemical prices. There have been several factors that escalate the increase in pricing, such as a loss of a chemical factory in Texas last year. Federal and state HazMat regulations and increases in shipping costs from common carriers are others.

Funny you should mention cutting off hobby shops that don't sell for a price to your liking. Same thing happened in this area. A fairly new hobby shop could not sell for as low a price as another shop to at least one local club. The old established shop used fuel as a "loss leader" to draw customers to their door. They actually lost money on glow fuel. The attitude of the club members was that since the new shop could not sell fuel for as low a price as another shop no one should buy there. Another issue was general questions from members about what the new shop could do for them and what was the new shop willing to give to raffles and fun flys. The old shop didn't do anything but that didn't matter.

You guessed it, the new shop isn't there anymore. Buy the stuff bulk and make your own and see how much cheaper you can do it. You don't deserve any better than that. Now do the same thing with companies selling gasoline if you think you can.

japan3d

I would love to pay those prices for glow fuel. $45-60 a gallon here.

TLH101

My Feedback: (90)

Saw on TV, Sunday while watching the drag race, that the price of Nitro has gone way up. That may have some effect. I believe they said that it was about $700 for a 55 gal drum last year, and it's over $800 now for 40 gallons.
That works out to an increase of $13/gal to $20/gal, around 50%.[]

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

LHS (HobbyTown USA) about 3 blocks from my house is averaging about $20/gal. I don't buy anything from them unless I'm in a SEVERE pinch. Just not happy with the selection of products and the kids working there are all into cars. Airplane stuff is just junk on the shelves to them.

One shop used to have entire shelves of fuel. He probably had 300 gallons of fuel in the store. It was priced fair. I don't think he was making a ton of money on it, but he also carried kits and ARFs for glow and gas power. But he went the way of the "kitchen blender" and all his stuff is electric now. When he quit selling fuel, I quit going to his store.

There is one guy left in town who sells fuel at a reasonable price. He's about 10 miles away through Denver traffic. But, it's worth it, because he is a modeler. He still builds kits. He stocks balsa, covering, glue (imagine that--a hobby shop stocking glue!!) pushrods. It's just a tiny store, but he's a good guy. I don't mind paying a little bit more for a piece of plywood.

Kaoma

My Feedback: (4)

I finally got a gallon of 10% Coolpower for $15.00...
I understand that everything is going up, but not bouble the price! Also I HATE when I am looking for something and of course, they don't have it in stock, but I get an ear full of reasons of why I should quit glow/gas and go electric. NO, I will not support your business and buy the stuff YOU want to sell.

exbrit49

I too got fed up with the high prices and decided to make my own. It took several evenings on the phone to locate all the ingredients. I was really lucky and found them all locally. I was really lucky in one respect. I live close to Fort Wayne, IN where Klotz lubricants are located. I was able to obtain the Nitro, synthetic oils and Castor oil from one stop shop. Even buying in small quantities I can mix 15% Nitro with a mix of 17% Synth/Castor for under $16.50 per gallon, and under $14 per gallon for 10% Nitro. Buying in larger quantities for a small club should bring your price down to around $13 per gallon for 10% Nitro. Pricing on Nitro methane is pretty stable and so are Castor and Synthetic oils.
Methanol prices tend to rise during the winter and will usually lower slightly in the spring. Not being willing to take a chance this year, I went ahead and bought all my Methanol for this summer at $4 a gallon. So I am set for the year and my prices will vary from sub $14 for 10% Nitro up to $16 for 15% Nitro, Same is true for my 4 stroke blends
Its not difficult to mix and and I have worked out all the formulas for all the different blends of 2 and 4 stroke fuels. There is an added bonus to blending your own as well as the cost. You know exactly what is in the fuel, the quality of the ingredients and it is so easy to modify a blend to suit a particular engine.
Fuel prices are probably going to keep increasing, so really give some serious thought to mixing your own! It’s a lot easier than you think and it isn’t black magic.
If any one wants any assistance with the formulas, I would be more than glad to help.
Ps I Should add that I used to mix fuel as far back as the mid 60s for class A and B combat, that was some pretty hot fuel back then.

DadsToysBG

My Feedback: (35)

Maybe I'm not selling mine for enough. I get 12.99 for 10%. If your mixing yours for 14$ I should be able to sell mine at 15$. Dennis

exbrit49

Hi there DadsToysBG
As noted, I am mixing in small quantities, I can do much better on pricing if I buy in larger lots, but right now I am quite happy to mix my own, pay a LOT less than the hobby shops and know exactly what’s in my fuel!
Curious to see your pricing make up. Methanol is up to $4 a gallon here and I am using Klotz Heli synthetic and Benol castor ( top of the line ingredients) I will not compromise the lubricants! Engines are too expensive to do that.
If you are selling 10% for $12.99! I would be interested in being introduced to your suppliers I’m serious as our entire club would participate at those prices. and I would mix up about 55 gallons of methanol and that would yield about 70 Gallons of fuel.
As I said, if I use higher quantities, I can get the COST of 10% down to around $13 but that’s as low as I can get. So lets share cost prices via email
Roger

bdavison

My Feedback: (1)

Electric has been SO much more economical for me.
I would burn close to a gallon of fuel or more each week with the amount of flying that I do.
56 weeks x $20 a gallon = $1,120 a year for glow.
Plus the cost of traveling to a proper field where I could fly glow, and club membership for that field.

Whereas,
My biggest electric plane uses a 4cell 4600mah lipo which I get for around $150 bucks. That's equivelent to a years worth of glow fuel.
Some of my electric planes are small enough to be flown in the front yard, and the larger ones get flown at a local park. Due to the convience factor
of the smaller planes, I end up also getting more flight time than I would if I flew glow.

Just something to think about.

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

The problem with mixing glow fuel is you need a place to store all those chemicals. We all know that they aren't really that dangerous. But, if something were to happen, your insurance company would laugh at you, and not pay a dime.

I looked into it about 3 or 4 yrs ago. I could get a 25g barrel of nitro and a 55g drum of methanol pretty reasonable. The oil is the most expensive part--assuming you plan to use a high quality oil. At that time, I think I had it down to about $11/gallon for 10% with 18% castor/synthetic blends of oil. Cheap enough.

But, having that much sitting around made me nervous. I know that it's not dangerous, but there's always the question in the back of your mind, "What if?"

bdavison

My Feedback: (1)

Lets look at it from a honest standpoint of how much it costs.

Lets take a 60 sized airplane. Ill use the Hyperion Helios 63e, a brand new 2008 airplane design.

Here would be the cost tally for building it glow.
Helios 63e ARF = $214.95
YS 63 engine = $239.87
Glow Plug = $8.00
Glow Fuel for one year (assuming 1 gallon per month as a conservative estimate) = $240
6ch Rx = $45.00
4 Servos = $120.00

Grand Total = $867.82

Here would be the cost tally for building it electric.
Helios 63e ARF with YS63 equivelent motor and 80A esc = $415.45
4S4600mah lipo(equivelent to one year glow fuel) = $150.00
6ch Rx = $45.00
4 servos = $120.00

Grand Total = $730.45

Thats a $137.37 savings by running electric vs glow.

In addition to that initial savings you will save money by not purchasing paper towels and 409 for clean up, replacement glow plugs, etc.

Bax

My Feedback: (11)

Actuallly, you have estimated fuel consumption to be 'way too low, unless you're only flying one or two flights per weekend. If you have a 16-ounce tank in that model, then you have eight flights in a gallon of fuel. It's easy to burn that in a single weekend, so you can easily double or quadruple your fuel costs.

With electric, you'd really want 1-4 battery packs charged when you go to the field, and a field charger, so add anywhere from $400.00 to $700.00 or so, depending upon the charger and associated power supply.

In the long run, they'll likely run about the same. That's because you'll burn fuel each year with an engine, and you'll wind up replacing battery packs and wiring with the electric. Remember, if you fly a lot, your battery packs won't last more than a season or two, if that, and you'll need to replace connectors and wiring because of chafing, dirt, and the continuing connecting/disconnecting of the plugs.

If you crash, you may wind up tossing it all in the trash...depends upon what gets broken, but a crashed LiPo battery pack isn't a safe thing to keep around.

Bigshark

It would likely depend on the company and state, but speaking as an insurance agent with AAA, in Missouri, there is no specific exclusion for those types of "hazardous materials." A 55 gallon drum of gasoline/methanol or the like on your premises would not be grounds for denying a claim. A competant claims adjust would probably ask why you had it but "aeromodeling" would be a good enough answer. The one caveat to that would be use/sales as a part of a business. That would be more problematic.

TPAGEL

My Feedback: (6)

I just called Morgan Inc and they would ship a 54 gal drum of 10% to my town for $ 490.00
plus $ 127.42 for freight, which works out to $ 11.49/gal if my math is right. I could also get 24
gal shipped in 4gal boxes for $13.70/gal which also includes freight.
Just thought you would like to know. 3/7/08.
Tom

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Some hobby shops sell fuel at prices close to or under their cost as a loss leader to get people in the door. Once in the store they buy other things that offsets the break even or loss on the fuel. I know some people that will only buy the fuel at a shop that does this so the shop never benefits from any other sales to those people.

Why is it that so many people cannot understand that a business is in business to make money, not trade dollars? Have they ever contemplated what would happen to their jobs if the companies they worked for did not make money? They make money by selling for more than they pay for something. Some people might get real upset if they found out that their boss charges more for the employees labor than he pays the employee. Same is true for products like fuel and other hobby supplies. You'll go bankrupt in very short order if you buy for a buck and sell for a buck.

I truly believe it should be mandatory for everyone to attempt business ownership for a one year period. That business has to be their sole support, and show growth or profit at the end of the year. They might finally stop snivelling about costs all the time. Except in the odd event they have an employee. I can just about guarantee that they'll be crying everyday about how much they pay the help and how little work they get out of them in return. Eventually a few might finally understand profit ratios, costs of sales, rates of return, capital expenditures, overhead, and a few other business terms that make the world go round.

Kaoma

My Feedback: (4)

I understand that any/all LHS are in the business to make money but when one LHS sells fuel for $13.00/gal and the other LHS a few miles down the road sells THE SAME fuel for $27.00/gal that is rip-off, not profit...and if I can not afford your fuel prices, how can I buy more planes (and use more fuel) that I can not afford?
I have friends that are in retail business and a normal profit margin is 20-30% more than cost. If you buy fuel for $11.00/gal I have no problem to buy it at $13.00/gal and if you find the excuse that you bought the fuel at $22.00/gal...then its time to sell underwears instead of planes...at least we know where the smell is coming from.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

"Normal" retail uses a term called "keystone" to describe profit. Most small retail businesses try for a minimum of keystone, with specialty retail businesses shooting for multiples of keystone. Keystone is 100%. Hobby businesses would be very, very happy to make 20-30% The suppliers they get the products from, especially radios, engines, and kits, only leave them with a possible 20-30% if the supplier does not advertise a lower price when customers internet order from the supplier. If a true hobby shop turns 10% after overhead I'd be surprised. I almost bought a hobby shop some months back but after looking at the profit versus the cost I told them I couldn't work that cheap and walked away.

Super markets use a much lower profit structure due to volume sales and product turn over. 3 to 5%, but they are assured a never ending customer supply if the neighborhood stays together and they half way take care of the customers.

The guy down the road is selling fuel for cost or less to get you in the door. The other guy probably has lower prices on everything other than fuel. Buy where you feel best about things. Won't be too long when there won't be any local hobby shops. Wait till you see the cost of fuel then!!

Bill Teller

As near as I can remember when I first ran glow engines 60 years ago fuel was about $2 A PINT or $16 a gallon. Fuel seems like a good deal to me --back then a .29 was a normal size & size does matter especially in fuel costs.

fireman7875

My Feedback: (7)

The curiosity has gotten the better of me. Please don't take this as an insult, but I have to know how you came to the conclusion that a 25 gallon drum of nitro and a 55 gallon drum of methanol would not be dangerous. There is a reason that the HazMat charges are applied to shipping fuel. I would never keep those chemicals at my house in such quantity. I am very cautious with how I store even one or two gallons of mixed fuel.

Methanol has a vapor desity of 1.11 which means that the vapors can stay at ground level. The flash point is a nice, cool 51.80 degrees farenheit which means you will usually have vapors present sufficient for combustion. Additionally, it poses environmental and human health hazards including skin absorption. Oh yeah, and if it catches on fire you can't put water on it.

Nitromethane is just as toxic although slightly less flammable with a flash point of 112 degrees farenheit. Make no mistake, though, it is still a flammable liquid.

Both of these chemicals are extremely dangerous and you couldn't pay me to store them at my house.

Brian

exbrit49

Brian, I see you live in a warmer climate! I live in the north and we have to store gasoline for snow plowing and also for mowing. I also have a large workshop which has to be heated with Kerosene. So as you can see, like it or not I already have to store flammable liquids any way.
A few gallons of methanol is not going to make a real big difference.
I checked with my Insurance company and they do not see an issue either. Common sense and good storage practices have to be used but that’s the same for the gasoline too! (which I bet is stored at 85% of US rural residences)
As far as your statement "These chemicals are dangerous", is partially true, but lets keep it in perspective. I have highly corrosive toilet cleaners and many other highly toxic household chemicals that are stored under the kitchen sink and I bet if I looked under yours, I would probably find the same
There is an inherent risk to everything we do. But I don’t think that storing a few gallons of methanol or nitromethane is a big deal.
Yes Methanol can be absorbed though the skin, but I don’t stick my hand in fuel for 5 minutes or so, so why would I do that with methanol. Let’s use some common sense. Do you wear rubber gloves when fueling your aircraft? I bet you don’t! About 75% of that fuel is Methanol. Perhaps if you are that afraid, you might consider a switch to electric’s. I don’t personally like electric’s and will probably never own one but it might be a good choice for you.
The one other point I would like to make is that there is one other aspect we really haven’t discussed,
I ENJOY mixing my own fuel blends and the comfort of knowing exactly what oils and percentages are in there.
In addition I do save a little cash over LHS prices. Since I live over 20 miles from the nearest HS, If I wasn’t storing ingredients I would be storing fuel anyway.
Roger

[]TEX[]

I pay $20 for a gallon of 30% Cool Power heli fuel.

fireman7875

My Feedback: (7)

Well, Roger, you aren't the person that I was directing my comments to but since you chimed in...

The point to my post was not to say that the you shouldn't use the chemicals or that you shouldn't mix your own fuel. It was to address a seemingly cavalier attitude toward the chemicals that make up our glow fuel. I fly gas, glow and electric so I am certainly not afraid of either one but I don't care to store large quantities of flammable, toxic chemicals in my shop. Notice I said LARGE quantities because the post to which I was referring mentioned quantities of 25 gallons and 55 gallons of nitro and methanol respectively. There is a big difference between storing a couple of individual gallons (or even 55 individual gallons) and storing 55 gallons in ONE container. First scenario: a single one gallon container ruptures and you spill one gallon. Second scenario: a single 55 gallon drum ruptures and you spill 55 gallons. Guess who is legally responsible for the clean up, removal and subsequent soil testing. You, the property owner.

Further, I do store gasoline at my house. However, I only keep about a gallon of it at a time. Do you keep a 55 gallon drum of kerosene in your shop for heating?

Yes, I do live in a warmer climate than you do, Roger but the person that I quoted, I believe lives in Colorado.

Also, no, I wouldn't stick my hand into glow fuel or methanol for five minutes either but since you want to use "common sense" let's use some. I have seen large containers of liquid spill or rupture. I am, after all, a fire fighter. I have also seen people's garages or homes burn up when they got an ignition source too close to one of these large containers of flammable liquid. My statement that "these chemicals are dangerous" isn't partially true. It is 100% true!

If you want to store drums of these chemicals at your house, be my guest. But don't tell me that they aren't dangerous.

Brian

Darkbird

My Feedback: (7)

Just a thought to some. Our club does a mass fuel order every year(crap, just realized I missed this years order due to missing our club meeting) and most club members get a seasons worth then. The order is then placed with the manufacturer and a member picks it up at the Toledo show. Those who are paying too much may want to consider something similiar. BTW, we don't have a local hobby shop.