Don't Answer Cell Phone While Flying!
07-09-2004, 08:31 PM
#301
RE: Don't Answer Cell Phone While Flying!
Sport Pilot,
You need to contact Army Aviation and tell them they have been wrong all these years about radio charges. I think some of those injured loadmasters may disagree with you too. I can say that it did/does happen.
What I do know is that the slingload hook is attached to the airframe. Also, we probably had some radios that civil aviation didn't have, such as UHF surplus from the Air Force, and low band VHF in the 35 mHz range. Not to be overly argumentive, but I'll search for my remaining operator's manual on one of the aircraft that I flew and see what is written in the avionics chapter...if I didn't get rid of it. I made the mistake of not bringing a lot of my old aviation publications with me when I moved, and I've regretted it since.
As for you saying that I'm wrong about av fuel carrying a charge, I didn't say the aircraft wasn't grounded. I meant that the fuel that travels from the truck to the plane, via a hose, can carry a charge potential. Of course the planes are grounded. We were grounded at the skids to grounding rods, and also had a plug-in ground in the fuselage side for the refueler to plug in his grounding cord. It was always a safety rule to never transmit when being fueled. Also, we had to touch down in front of any load we were picking up to dissipate charges in the airframe.
We didn't have cell phones back then, so I have no idea how those would work in the air.
You need to contact Army Aviation and tell them they have been wrong all these years about radio charges. I think some of those injured loadmasters may disagree with you too. I can say that it did/does happen.
What I do know is that the slingload hook is attached to the airframe. Also, we probably had some radios that civil aviation didn't have, such as UHF surplus from the Air Force, and low band VHF in the 35 mHz range. Not to be overly argumentive, but I'll search for my remaining operator's manual on one of the aircraft that I flew and see what is written in the avionics chapter...if I didn't get rid of it. I made the mistake of not bringing a lot of my old aviation publications with me when I moved, and I've regretted it since.
As for you saying that I'm wrong about av fuel carrying a charge, I didn't say the aircraft wasn't grounded. I meant that the fuel that travels from the truck to the plane, via a hose, can carry a charge potential. Of course the planes are grounded. We were grounded at the skids to grounding rods, and also had a plug-in ground in the fuselage side for the refueler to plug in his grounding cord. It was always a safety rule to never transmit when being fueled. Also, we had to touch down in front of any load we were picking up to dissipate charges in the airframe.
We didn't have cell phones back then, so I have no idea how those would work in the air.
07-09-2004, 08:42 PM
#302
RE: Don't Answer Cell Phone While Flying!
That guy must have a relative here. We had a guy last year and in fact he still does this. He "programs" while flying never mind the simple trimming stuff. He came across the field one time and was programing something and when he looked up his plane was flying inverted but level about 10 feet above the field. So he pulled back on the sticks[X(]
ORIGINAL: AdrianM
A couple of weekends ago a guy at our club was flying his trainer. He is a fairly competent pilot that has been flying solo for a little over a year. There were about 5 planes in the air and everyone was flying safely.
After about 5 minutes of flying his cell phone rings. He makes sure his plane is flying level, looks at his belt phone holder, picks up his phone, looks at who's calling, answers the call and looks back up at the spot where his plane was a few seconds ago...
He finds a plane in the air and after a few seconds calls out that he has a problem. The plane in not doing what he tells it to do. At the same time guys in the pits are screaming and pointing at a plane in a death spiral about 100 yards past the runway...
When the pilot reacquired his plane it wasn't his plane at all! Luckily no one got hurt and the plane was repaired and back at the field next Sunday. This could have been a bad situation if the plane had drifted over the pits or parking lot.
This story is absolutely true and teaches us 2 very important points:
1. Leave you phone in the Pits!
2. Never take your eyes off YOUR aircraft!
A couple of weekends ago a guy at our club was flying his trainer. He is a fairly competent pilot that has been flying solo for a little over a year. There were about 5 planes in the air and everyone was flying safely.
After about 5 minutes of flying his cell phone rings. He makes sure his plane is flying level, looks at his belt phone holder, picks up his phone, looks at who's calling, answers the call and looks back up at the spot where his plane was a few seconds ago...
He finds a plane in the air and after a few seconds calls out that he has a problem. The plane in not doing what he tells it to do. At the same time guys in the pits are screaming and pointing at a plane in a death spiral about 100 yards past the runway...
When the pilot reacquired his plane it wasn't his plane at all! Luckily no one got hurt and the plane was repaired and back at the field next Sunday. This could have been a bad situation if the plane had drifted over the pits or parking lot.
This story is absolutely true and teaches us 2 very important points:
1. Leave you phone in the Pits!
2. Never take your eyes off YOUR aircraft!
07-09-2004, 08:53 PM
#303
RE: Don't Answer Cell Phone While Flying!
Coming from to many years flying Army helicopters, simply keying in the FM radio will discharge the static electricity prior to hooking up a sling load. You did not have to land first. Of course if you forgot to , the pathfinders got a heck of a zap! I did see an Aux tank blow once . Darn guy was lucky. Shot off like a cannon but no fire. Scared the crap out of him
ORIGINAL: blwblw
Aviation refueling is a different matter. The volume of fuel being pumped creates static of its own from the flow. I *think* antistatic compounds were added to the fuel. We did closed circuit refueling with the turbine still running in the service, and static electricity was an issue. Also, aircraft radios build up tremendous amounts of charge in the airframe. We could not transmit while refueling. When doing slingload ops we had to touch down first to drain static charges before hovering over the loadmaster for him to hook us up to the load. There are plenty of cases where the loadmasters were zapped off of their feet.
Aviation refueling is a different matter. The volume of fuel being pumped creates static of its own from the flow. I *think* antistatic compounds were added to the fuel. We did closed circuit refueling with the turbine still running in the service, and static electricity was an issue. Also, aircraft radios build up tremendous amounts of charge in the airframe. We could not transmit while refueling. When doing slingload ops we had to touch down first to drain static charges before hovering over the loadmaster for him to hook us up to the load. There are plenty of cases where the loadmasters were zapped off of their feet.
07-10-2004, 10:40 AM
#304
RE: Don't Answer Cell Phone While Flying!
I forgot about keying the FM, even though I never quite believed it. (g)
The guy who gave me the UH-1 refresher course at Cairnes had been awarding something for saving a refueler. He was on the bus and saw the guy in flames, and he jumped out and put him out quickly.
OTH, our commander in Germany in 1982 looked out his door at hot refuel, and saw the refueler stumble around with the hose, shooting a big stream of fuel into the OH-58 intakes. No fire, but fuel everywhere. Sheesh, shooting JP4 into a running turbine and no fire. Lucky people that day.
The guy who gave me the UH-1 refresher course at Cairnes had been awarding something for saving a refueler. He was on the bus and saw the guy in flames, and he jumped out and put him out quickly.
OTH, our commander in Germany in 1982 looked out his door at hot refuel, and saw the refueler stumble around with the hose, shooting a big stream of fuel into the OH-58 intakes. No fire, but fuel everywhere. Sheesh, shooting JP4 into a running turbine and no fire. Lucky people that day.
07-10-2004, 10:45 PM
#305
RE: Don't Answer Cell Phone While Flying!
It was stated that the radios build a charge. They cannot build a static charge in the airframe. But on large and sophisticated avionics the capacitors and tranformers can build a charge. Not sure why they wouldn't be discharged when the master switch's are turned off. Thats a requirment for refueling in civil aviation, but I understand the miltary often does hot refueling with the aircraft still running.
09-01-2004, 03:16 AM
#306
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RE: Don't Answer Cell Phone While Flying!
1) Can fires be caused by cell phones?
Yes, a cell phone battery has more than enough juice to cause a spark in a faulty connection. This has happened and has been documented. Even exploding batteries has been reported. But neither is something that happens often.
2) Can an a 72Mhz airplane transmitter be affected by a nearby cell phone?
Yes, but this is not very likely. Cell phones do cause some interference in surrounding electrical devices by inducing radio frequencies into the circuits but this should in most cases not be enough to affect the performance of the transmitter in any way unless it has a faulty design.
3) Can a 72Mhz transmission be corrupted by a cell phone transmission?
Highly unlikely. The frequency of the transmitter is not on an even harmonic of any of the GSM band frequencies (or other cell phone system frequencies at that) so it is extremely unlikely that the signals should interfere in any way, but when it comes to radio transmissions a lot of weird (even regarded impossible) stuff has been known to happen. So when it comes to this, I would keep an open mind if I were you.
4) Can an EEPROM be erased by a nearby cell phone?
No, not if there is not some form of serious glitch in the surrounding electronics. An EEPROM is an Electrically Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory. Which basically means that it can be erased by an electrical signal and programmed with new data after which it is read only until it is erased again. The erasure procedure involves feeding the memory with a higher than normal (working) voltage direct current signal and this type of current CAN NOT be induced by a nearby radio source. However if the surrounding electronics were to be affected by the signal in such a way that it for some reason believes that it was commanded to erase the memory then yes, it could be possible, yet EXTREMELY unlikely and only remotely feasible. I have heard a lot of weird **** when it comes to these things, but a cell phone erasing an EEPROM memory would have to be placed in the least probable category. Why? I'm comparing the situation to computer/cell phone interference. A computer is endlessly more advanced than a rc transmitter hence has an much, much higher chance of something being affected by a cell phone especially since a single computer has literally thousands of different frequencies operating inside various chips and bus-lines. Hundreds of computers are used in big offices with hundreds of cell phones idling, ringing, exchanging data etc. and with walls, metal cases and other obstacles bouncing signals back and forth causing a myriad of harmonics. The computer uses EEPROMs for, among other things, the BIOS software. With an erased BIOS the computer would never even start. If any of the other EEPROMS were erased the computer would experience severe problems functioning properly (I should mention that a normal computer usually has AT LEAST somewhere around 5-10 separate EEPROMS) and still, this has never been a problem of a magnitude even worth discussing even though the chance of a computer being affected is millions of times greater than a transmitter being affected in a similar manner if you take the complexity of the machine and the number of nearby cell phones in a the typical working environment into account not to mention other sources of interference... bluetooth devices, ac spikes, cordless phones, other computers, v-lan (cordless networking), surrounding power converters etc. etc. Also, computers has just a tad more users than hobby rc units. Oh by the way... most cell phones also have an EEPROM and function in a similar manner as a rc transmitter. They don't usually just go and erase themselves do they? Probably built to handle the interference you say? Well I asked a friend who works at Sony Ericsson as a hardware technician and they have never as far as he knew had problems with this and it is not something that is taken into consideration when designing new circuitry.
I am not saying it's impossible, i'm saying it's just way too unlikely to believe and alot of people do seem to like telling tales.
I'm not an expert but I do have extensive knowledge on the subject and this is not really rocket science.
Yes, a cell phone battery has more than enough juice to cause a spark in a faulty connection. This has happened and has been documented. Even exploding batteries has been reported. But neither is something that happens often.
2) Can an a 72Mhz airplane transmitter be affected by a nearby cell phone?
Yes, but this is not very likely. Cell phones do cause some interference in surrounding electrical devices by inducing radio frequencies into the circuits but this should in most cases not be enough to affect the performance of the transmitter in any way unless it has a faulty design.
3) Can a 72Mhz transmission be corrupted by a cell phone transmission?
Highly unlikely. The frequency of the transmitter is not on an even harmonic of any of the GSM band frequencies (or other cell phone system frequencies at that) so it is extremely unlikely that the signals should interfere in any way, but when it comes to radio transmissions a lot of weird (even regarded impossible) stuff has been known to happen. So when it comes to this, I would keep an open mind if I were you.
4) Can an EEPROM be erased by a nearby cell phone?
No, not if there is not some form of serious glitch in the surrounding electronics. An EEPROM is an Electrically Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory. Which basically means that it can be erased by an electrical signal and programmed with new data after which it is read only until it is erased again. The erasure procedure involves feeding the memory with a higher than normal (working) voltage direct current signal and this type of current CAN NOT be induced by a nearby radio source. However if the surrounding electronics were to be affected by the signal in such a way that it for some reason believes that it was commanded to erase the memory then yes, it could be possible, yet EXTREMELY unlikely and only remotely feasible. I have heard a lot of weird **** when it comes to these things, but a cell phone erasing an EEPROM memory would have to be placed in the least probable category. Why? I'm comparing the situation to computer/cell phone interference. A computer is endlessly more advanced than a rc transmitter hence has an much, much higher chance of something being affected by a cell phone especially since a single computer has literally thousands of different frequencies operating inside various chips and bus-lines. Hundreds of computers are used in big offices with hundreds of cell phones idling, ringing, exchanging data etc. and with walls, metal cases and other obstacles bouncing signals back and forth causing a myriad of harmonics. The computer uses EEPROMs for, among other things, the BIOS software. With an erased BIOS the computer would never even start. If any of the other EEPROMS were erased the computer would experience severe problems functioning properly (I should mention that a normal computer usually has AT LEAST somewhere around 5-10 separate EEPROMS) and still, this has never been a problem of a magnitude even worth discussing even though the chance of a computer being affected is millions of times greater than a transmitter being affected in a similar manner if you take the complexity of the machine and the number of nearby cell phones in a the typical working environment into account not to mention other sources of interference... bluetooth devices, ac spikes, cordless phones, other computers, v-lan (cordless networking), surrounding power converters etc. etc. Also, computers has just a tad more users than hobby rc units. Oh by the way... most cell phones also have an EEPROM and function in a similar manner as a rc transmitter. They don't usually just go and erase themselves do they? Probably built to handle the interference you say? Well I asked a friend who works at Sony Ericsson as a hardware technician and they have never as far as he knew had problems with this and it is not something that is taken into consideration when designing new circuitry.
I am not saying it's impossible, i'm saying it's just way too unlikely to believe and alot of people do seem to like telling tales.
I'm not an expert but I do have extensive knowledge on the subject and this is not really rocket science.
09-01-2004, 10:56 PM
#308
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RE: Don't Answer Cell Phone While Flying!
ORIGINAL: SenseiTG
1) Can fires be caused by cell phones?
Yes, a cell phone battery has more than enough juice to cause a spark in a faulty connection. This has happened and has been documented. Even exploding batteries has been reported. But neither is something that happens often.
2) Can an a 72Mhz airplane transmitter be affected by a nearby cell phone?
Yes, but this is not very likely. Cell phones do cause some interference in surrounding electrical devices by inducing radio frequencies into the circuits but this should in most cases not be enough to affect the performance of the transmitter in any way unless it has a faulty design.
3) Can a 72Mhz transmission be corrupted by a cell phone transmission?
Highly unlikely. The frequency of the transmitter is not on an even harmonic of any of the GSM band frequencies (or other cell phone system frequencies at that) so it is extremely unlikely that the signals should interfere in any way, but when it comes to radio transmissions a lot of weird (even regarded impossible) stuff has been known to happen. So when it comes to this, I would keep an open mind if I were you.
4) Can an EEPROM be erased by a nearby cell phone?
No, not if there is not some form of serious glitch in the surrounding electronics. An EEPROM is an Electrically Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory. Which basically means that it can be erased by an electrical signal and programmed with new data after which it is read only until it is erased again. The erasure procedure involves feeding the memory with a higher than normal (working) voltage direct current signal and this type of current CAN NOT be induced by a nearby radio source. However if the surrounding electronics were to be affected by the signal in such a way that it for some reason believes that it was commanded to erase the memory then yes, it could be possible, yet EXTREMELY unlikely and only remotely feasible. I have heard a lot of weird **** when it comes to these things, but a cell phone erasing an EEPROM memory would have to be placed in the least probable category. Why? I'm comparing the situation to computer/cell phone interference. A computer is endlessly more advanced than a rc transmitter hence has an much, much higher chance of something being affected by a cell phone especially since a single computer has literally thousands of different frequencies operating inside various chips and bus-lines. Hundreds of computers are used in big offices with hundreds of cell phones idling, ringing, exchanging data etc. and with walls, metal cases and other obstacles bouncing signals back and forth causing a myriad of harmonics. The computer uses EEPROMs for, among other things, the BIOS software. With an erased BIOS the computer would never even start. If any of the other EEPROMS were erased the computer would experience severe problems functioning properly (I should mention that a normal computer usually has AT LEAST somewhere around 5-10 separate EEPROMS) and still, this has never been a problem of a magnitude even worth discussing even though the chance of a computer being affected is millions of times greater than a transmitter being affected in a similar manner if you take the complexity of the machine and the number of nearby cell phones in a the typical working environment into account not to mention other sources of interference... bluetooth devices, ac spikes, cordless phones, other computers, v-lan (cordless networking), surrounding power converters etc. etc. Also, computers has just a tad more users than hobby rc units. Oh by the way... most cell phones also have an EEPROM and function in a similar manner as a rc transmitter. They don't usually just go and erase themselves do they? Probably built to handle the interference you say? Well I asked a friend who works at Sony Ericsson as a hardware technician and they have never as far as he knew had problems with this and it is not something that is taken into consideration when designing new circuitry.
I am not saying it's impossible, i'm saying it's just way too unlikely to believe and alot of people do seem to like telling tales.
I'm not an expert but I do have extensive knowledge on the subject and this is not really rocket science.
1) Can fires be caused by cell phones?
Yes, a cell phone battery has more than enough juice to cause a spark in a faulty connection. This has happened and has been documented. Even exploding batteries has been reported. But neither is something that happens often.
2) Can an a 72Mhz airplane transmitter be affected by a nearby cell phone?
Yes, but this is not very likely. Cell phones do cause some interference in surrounding electrical devices by inducing radio frequencies into the circuits but this should in most cases not be enough to affect the performance of the transmitter in any way unless it has a faulty design.
3) Can a 72Mhz transmission be corrupted by a cell phone transmission?
Highly unlikely. The frequency of the transmitter is not on an even harmonic of any of the GSM band frequencies (or other cell phone system frequencies at that) so it is extremely unlikely that the signals should interfere in any way, but when it comes to radio transmissions a lot of weird (even regarded impossible) stuff has been known to happen. So when it comes to this, I would keep an open mind if I were you.
4) Can an EEPROM be erased by a nearby cell phone?
No, not if there is not some form of serious glitch in the surrounding electronics. An EEPROM is an Electrically Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory. Which basically means that it can be erased by an electrical signal and programmed with new data after which it is read only until it is erased again. The erasure procedure involves feeding the memory with a higher than normal (working) voltage direct current signal and this type of current CAN NOT be induced by a nearby radio source. However if the surrounding electronics were to be affected by the signal in such a way that it for some reason believes that it was commanded to erase the memory then yes, it could be possible, yet EXTREMELY unlikely and only remotely feasible. I have heard a lot of weird **** when it comes to these things, but a cell phone erasing an EEPROM memory would have to be placed in the least probable category. Why? I'm comparing the situation to computer/cell phone interference. A computer is endlessly more advanced than a rc transmitter hence has an much, much higher chance of something being affected by a cell phone especially since a single computer has literally thousands of different frequencies operating inside various chips and bus-lines. Hundreds of computers are used in big offices with hundreds of cell phones idling, ringing, exchanging data etc. and with walls, metal cases and other obstacles bouncing signals back and forth causing a myriad of harmonics. The computer uses EEPROMs for, among other things, the BIOS software. With an erased BIOS the computer would never even start. If any of the other EEPROMS were erased the computer would experience severe problems functioning properly (I should mention that a normal computer usually has AT LEAST somewhere around 5-10 separate EEPROMS) and still, this has never been a problem of a magnitude even worth discussing even though the chance of a computer being affected is millions of times greater than a transmitter being affected in a similar manner if you take the complexity of the machine and the number of nearby cell phones in a the typical working environment into account not to mention other sources of interference... bluetooth devices, ac spikes, cordless phones, other computers, v-lan (cordless networking), surrounding power converters etc. etc. Also, computers has just a tad more users than hobby rc units. Oh by the way... most cell phones also have an EEPROM and function in a similar manner as a rc transmitter. They don't usually just go and erase themselves do they? Probably built to handle the interference you say? Well I asked a friend who works at Sony Ericsson as a hardware technician and they have never as far as he knew had problems with this and it is not something that is taken into consideration when designing new circuitry.
I am not saying it's impossible, i'm saying it's just way too unlikely to believe and alot of people do seem to like telling tales.
I'm not an expert but I do have extensive knowledge on the subject and this is not really rocket science.
Another psuedo ENGINEER....jeesh!
09-02-2004, 12:56 PM
#309
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RE: Don't Answer Cell Phone While Flying!
For someone with 9 posts, you'd think you'd try to offer something more than a rolling eye emoticon and useless comment. At least he offered some sort of seemingly knowledgeable information.
Or are you just a troll?
Or are you just a troll?
09-02-2004, 04:26 PM
#310
RE: Don't Answer Cell Phone While Flying!
ORIGINAL: MHawker
For someone with 9 posts, you'd think you'd try to offer something more than a rolling eye emoticon and useless comment. At least he offered some sort of seemingly knowledgeable information.
Or are you just a troll?
For someone with 9 posts, you'd think you'd try to offer something more than a rolling eye emoticon and useless comment. At least he offered some sort of seemingly knowledgeable information.
Or are you just a troll?
