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  1. #601

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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine


  2. #602
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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine

    fficedocumentsettings>fficedocumentsettings>verridetablestylehps>verridetablestylehps>


    Ok guys, here is how the conversation is going with the plant. I have included our last e-mails back and forth so you can get an idea of what we deal with. I have told these guys that if they don't have a working prototype to our final specs in the next 10 days I am canceling the order. As a back up I sent this out to another manufacture in China that has offices in the US. They are currently building a prototype as a backup plan only. I think Kin got the message but you can judge for yourself.

    Fred

    Dear Fred

    The factory are 100% understand your mofication , but can i handle your project and i hope no need do again a sample and i will let you many photo when the doing the fuselage , so you can see all the detail and i will control them about all the detail .so the factory possible start the project now . i will step by step shoot the photo when they are assemble the fuselage you can see the modification .and i will mark the different where is change .

    the wing servo position is no problem to move in the centre . the former are same level with the landing gear wood , no problem.

    Kin

    Kin,
    this is taking too long. Its been two weeks since our last e-mail and nothing is done. You have had this project for 8 months now. If you don’t have this ready in the next 10 days I am canceling the order.

    Fred

    Dear Fred

    Sorry ! I just want to start the project early ,can i make the fuselage for last confirm , the wing you can use the last sent you one ! it is only the servo position change a little bit and the screw(plastric tube material) problem .If we just make the fuselage for this time last confirm , it can faster , but i think the wing have not much change , you can use the last wing to test fly , Is it ok ?

    Kin

    Kin, That’s will be ok

    Fred


  3. #603

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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine

    Fred,
    I appreciate the update about your frustration of dealing with a foreign factory. I can't even imagine having to deal with that situation. Even though progress seems to have stagnated, and maybe even lost some ground, at least I now know that something is still happening behind the scenes, and the FM ARF project hasn't withered and died again.

    Despite the opinion of East RC, I think putting the Flying Machine ARF project out in the open was a good move for Condor. It gives all of us a better understanding of how ARFs are brought to market. After reading how your demand for a high quality ARF has slowed down the production process, it puts a spotlight on how quickly a poor ARF can be rushed to market. I now feel even more reassured that your FM ARF will be a top notch product, no matter how long it takes to finally bring it to market. You deserve a round of applause for sticking to your guns!

    When 4 weeks of silence goes by, that makes me seriously wonder if something went wrong to the point of abandoning the project.......and that scares me. So all I'm asking is to not keep us in the dark. Even an update that says nothing has changed is far better than silence.
    McDDD
    ProBro 415

  4. #604

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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine


    ORIGINAL: Condor060

    <Dear Fred

    Sorry ! I just want to start the project early ,can i make the fuselage for last confirm , the wing you can use the last sent you one ! it is only the servo position change a little bit and the screw(plastric tube material) problem .If we just make the fuselage for this time last confirm , it can faster , but i think the wing have not much change , you can use the last wing to test fly , Is it ok ?

    Β*Kin

    Β*

    Kin, That’s will be ok

    Fred

    Condor...I spent the last 20 years of my life in the Bill Collector game, getting lied to by Dead Beat Debtors, and even in his broken English, I read B.S.!!

    If I am reading this right , he wants you to be OK with using the same wing, WITHOUT changing the servo location, AND can he send you the last Fuselage they made for you!!!. In other words NO NEW CHANGES!!!

    If I clean his message up, to me it reads::

    "I want to get this project finished, Can I make the last fuselage that you OK'ed (authorized,finalized)....you can just use the last wing I sent you. The servo position change and screw (plastic tube problem) is so small, that it would be faster if you just used the last one I sent you."

    Of course, one cannot totally understand intentions when trying to read thru a broken language, but I think I may be very close.....

    JUST MY $ .02 WORTH

    Good Luck
    RC MANIAC-PRO BRO 1900-AMA# 95841

  5. #605
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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine

    What he means is, I gave him 10 days to get this completed or I am going to cancel my order. Since he is working with limited time he whats to know if he can just send the updated fuse and we fly it on the last wing he provided. I told him that would be ok.

    The last wing wasn't a servo location problem, the servo hatches were twice the size Don requested. Other than that, the wing is good to go. In an effort to expidite this (since we have a flyable wing that meets our structure requirement) I told him to get the final fuse to Don so we can see if they made the last required changes.

    If you remember the wing mounts in the fuse were not installed properly. And yes, we are not giving one inch of ground on this build. It is either right or its wrong. They will either provide the kit as designed by Don or we will give the order to our other factory interest, who has the CAD file and has started producing a prototype.

    I will give everyone on this forum my word that for any reason I decide to drop this project or not build the FM (FORANYREASON) I will post my resignation on this thread first. Rest assured, unless the mayan civilization was correct and our calendar ends in December, we are going to have our Flying Machine, but its going to be right, and its going to be Dons EXACT aircraft.

    After all has been said and done, I think Kin has this whooped. I know I am setting myself up for the (I told you so) scenario but I can promise you guys this. IF this factory looses our aircraft to another factory, their existing number one client is pulling out as well. I can't give out any names but their largest existing client is a sponsor of mine and is also financially invloved with the FM as well as future marketing. He isn't very pleased right now.





  6. #606

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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine

    Thanks for clearing that up........at least my instincts were almost right!!!
    RC MANIAC-PRO BRO 1900-AMA# 95841

  7. #607
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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine



    Thank you for the professional update Condor. I too understand dealing with other countries/suppliers.I just returned from Mexico last week to train engineers on a cad system due to the fact that they are a little behind the curve for our processes. I know you picked this project up later in the game than some of the previous comments may indicate, so the delay is not all on your shoulders. I hope it works out and you can get a quality arf to market; the design, the customers & and Don deserve it.

    Thanks,

    Dave

    I have not failed. I\'\'\'\'ve just found 10,000 ways that don\'\'\'\'t work - Thomas A. Edison

    Sig Kadet Brotherhood member #18

  8. #608
    Condor060's Avatar
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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine



    Ok Update, Update tica tica tica tica tica tica tica (trying to make old military typewriter sounds)
    We made the final, final, last final, final change to the fuse. The wing is good to go. They are shipping Don the fuse to use with the wing we already have.



    By the way, as some of you already know, I sent the CAD file to another plant. They called me today and said they would have a completed FM for me to fly next week. This was backup plan number 1.



    According to the plant manager, this one is built exactly to the CAD file with no changes. IF that is the case and this fuse doesn't pass, we are signing up with the other plant.


  9. #609

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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine

    Thanks for the update!

    If the other factory is willing and able to get it right on the first try, it would be awfully tempting to give them a shot at it before committing to the first factory, regardless of how their latest sample turns out.

    Personally, I'm willing to wait for a FM ARF that's constructed well enough that I won't be able to blow it apart inflight. If it takes you awhile to find a factory willing to build it to those standards, then waiting isn't a problem.
    McDDD
    ProBro 415

  10. #610
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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine

    What Chris posted earlier from his East RC account is sooo true. We've learned the hard way, posting things public before they're finished causes a lot of problems, as opposed to generating the sales that many think it helps. The "armchair quarterbacks" drive the mfg group crazy with questions and demands. We manufacture over 750 products and have 14 years of experience to prove this out.

    We lost several thousand $$ on this project (in the name of progress) when the shop we'd been working with went out of business, the economy fell, and we refocused our energy in other areas and Condor picked it up to move forward with Don. Most of you have no idea what its's like working with mfg's across the pond. One can demand all they like, but you get what you get and you have to learn how to work with them to get what you actually want. Despite all that, the hard work by Don and Condor will pay off with a superior product. Like it or not, none of you should be demanding updates, it's those guys who have big-bucks tied up in this project. All of you could change your minds about buying one of these, and Condor will still sell the 1st container faster than they can unpack it. We still have a waiting list of about 350 people for this when Condor is ready. This will be a hot item, period.

    Here are pics of one of my scratch built FM's from about '87 that was flown a zillion times on an OS.40 fsr abc w/pipe (still going!) and one of our last East R/C prototypes that weighs about 1.5 lbs less. This prototype has been flown with a .46 fx & and .55ax w/pipe and blows the doors off the unit I flew so much in the 80's. I can dive it straight down at full throttle and snap it almost to a stop, and no problems. The FM is one of the craziest machines ever, and I've been flying them since about 1986. I can only imagine how tough the newest version will be. Don knows his stuff! Take a deep breath, and give them time to sort it out.

    Dave
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  11. #611
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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine

    This is the deal, the plant that makes the firstkit that Don will sign off on is the winner.

  12. #612

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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine

    Thanks for the update Fred!

    I'll definitely buy a Flying Machine ARF from Condor because I have 100% confidence that it will be a top notch product, or it won't make it to market at all. Why? Because in this thread I've read about the problems that Fred has faced in order to bring a top notch ARF to market, how he solved them, or at least his plan to solve the latest problem.

    I also now have an idea and a greater appreciation of what it's like to deal with mfg's from across the pond.......again thanks to Fred and this thread.

    Posting project updates is a way for a company.....and especially a new company to earn trust and respect, and that policy is working for me. I really do appreciate Fred's efforts to keep us posted on the progress Condor is making to bringing a Flying Machine ARF to market. As we've already seen, when a company chooses to treat it's customers like mushrooms, trust and respect quickly fade.
    McDDD
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  13. #613
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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine



    All of this talk about suppliers and dealing overseas is fine, but for pete's sake, stop blaming the victims here. The folks asking the questions are not the ones that posted promises about due dates and such, that was all fueled by those who were only too eager (at the time) to say they had the new FM coming to market by "dd/mm/yyyy" date. I understand that things don't always work out the way you plan, but this has been promised for years, and again, I think some empathy for the people waiting is in order.

    Remember that part of what stirred this converstation was that a hold was placed on Lazerworks from cutting more short kits because an ARF was "right around the corner" so to speak. I wish Condor the best of luck in getting a quality ARF to market, but as far as a comment like "suck it up" goes, I would point that back to those who made the promise, not those who are asking them to deliver on it.

    ~D

    I have not failed. I\'\'\'\'ve just found 10,000 ways that don\'\'\'\'t work - Thomas A. Edison

    Sig Kadet Brotherhood member #18

  14. #614
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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine

    Ovation

    They are working on it, give them a break. Not easy dealing with overseas suppliers, ala East RC. Lets take a deep breath, and wait. Thats all we can do. Build one if you cant wait. Dogging the guy trying to get it done serves no purpose.


    Vince

  15. #615
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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine

    Hey Fellas, Just to let you know, I really do appreciate everyone who has participated in this ARF and honestly, it’s one of many reasons I decided to jump in myself. I know there is a lot of frustration out there about this and I certainly join your ranks.
    Stabbing at each other won’t do anything to help this. I also believe that since this is a 3 year old thread that everyone who has participated in this deserves to be on the front row meaning, information flow.
    Obviously I would never think of bringing in a new product an announcing it to the world without a working prototype in my hands. It just sets me up for ridicule because like most here have agreed, I start posting tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow, and now it becomes a credibility issue.
    I will keep the information flow open as long as I am involved in this kit. East RC spent a lot of time, money, and effort to make this a reality and had to make a financial decision for what was best for their company at the time so no one has the right to judge a man for being responsible to his family or livelihood. I thank them for their efforts in getting this going.
    Let’s get to the good news. I have a new sponsor (Giant Model Products) and just finished their new Gee Bee R3 racer 30 cc size. They have a few HUGE surprises in store for you guys over the next few months.
    I am telling you this because they are the guys working on our FM here in the states. According to Gerry (Pres. GMP) he is very excited to be a part of this and believes he can deliver to Don the exact CAD file ARF as early as late next week. Might be the following week but we can all keep our fingers crossed.
    If he does deliver this as discussed I will make the decision to sign with them. For no other reason but they got it right the first time. This makes me feel pretty confident that you guys will get exactly what we are all ordering.
    Let’s all step back just a little and focus on what we have all been working toward for the last three years. As soon as Gerry has some photos I will share them with you. In the meantime, here is a video of the 30cc Gee Bee with a 3W 55 CS motor I will be flying at Joe Nall. Gerry has also sent me his 50cc version we will be flying with the 3w 85 CS.

    You need to watch this on youtube in full screen as it was shot in 1080P without zoom.


    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jttDWmPo_s[/youtube]

  16. #616
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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine



    I am not dogging on anyone........just making a point.

    ~D

    I have not failed. I\'\'\'\'ve just found 10,000 ways that don\'\'\'\'t work - Thomas A. Edison

    Sig Kadet Brotherhood member #18

  17. #617
    ovationdave's Avatar
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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine

    Looks Great..........nice Gee Bee. Just for the record, Iam just trying to make some see the other side of the coin, thats all.I am eager to see what the final FM looks like, should be a winner when its complete. Thanks for seeing it though........

    ~D
    I have not failed. I\'\'\'\'ve just found 10,000 ways that don\'\'\'\'t work - Thomas A. Edison

    Sig Kadet Brotherhood member #18

  18. #618
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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine

    I completely understand and your input will always be welcomed here.

  19. #619

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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine

    I have NO problem waiting for a top notch product..............BUT,

    ....the comments made by TWEEK have me a tad upset, especially the fact that "THEY" have over 350 people still on a waiting list!!!

    Does that mean that the guys that dropped the ball get first pick of the pups?? I sure hope not, and I would like someone to publish a pecking order here!!!

    Thanks.....Flame suit on!!!
    RC MANIAC-PRO BRO 1900-AMA# 95841

  20. #620
    Condor060's Avatar
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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine

    Its a very simple process. The ONLY way to buy one is to register at wwwIWantMyFM.com If you are registered, you get the firsts pups out of the litter. No fuss, No muss. I have incresed the order to 500 because we have 411 registered. If we get 500, I will increase it to 750. EVERYONE who has registered gets aircraft from the first batch. This is why we won't release it till we know its 100%. Not going to have 500 guys pissed off because I didn't do my job right and let something slide by.

    They will have Dons signature on them before the first one is boxed and he knows where I live so

  21. #621
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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine

    ORIGINAL: RC MANIAC119

    I have NO problem waiting for a top notch product..............BUT,

    ....the comments made by TWEEK have me a tad upset, especially the fact that ''THEY'' have over 350 people still on a waiting list!!!

    Does that mean that the guys that dropped the ball get first pick of the pups?? I sure hope not, and I would like someone to publish a pecking order here!!!

    Thanks.....Flame suit on!!!
    Wow, you guys need to change your underpants. That's not at all what I meant. I was trying to say that there is a huge market out there, and if all of you walk, Condor's 1st load will still sell out. I'll go as far as to say I'll bet one of the major distributors picks them up. This is an awesome airframe, and will change the landscape of r/c as many of you know it (lots of you don't know what the FM can do). Based on the nutty activity of what I've seen on this forum, Condor will do well and we will do our best to support them. Like I said...take a deep breath, and get ready for the most awesome R/C airplane in this category that you've ever had the pleasure to fly. If we had pumped out the first gen prototype we had, some of you would be putting us on your hit list. Despite what the bird could do in it's first and 2nd gen form, it is nothing like what Don expects. We have had great results with our prototypes, but they were no where near what Don required to meet his specifications. Chill... those of you with patience will appreciate what you get.

  22. #622
    Condor060's Avatar
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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine

    I just received an E-mail from Kin. They have shipped the absolute, actual, authentic, authoritative, certain, conclusive, definite, definitive, errorless, exact, factual, faultless, final, flawless, genuine, infallible, irrefutable, official, perfect, right, straight, strict, true, truthful, undeniable, undisputed, unimpeachable, unquestionable, unrefuted, fuselodge to Don for final testing and flight.





    I am not sure what that means but its on the way.

  23. #623

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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine


    ORIGINAL: Condor060

    I just received an E-mail from Kin. They have shipped the absolute, actual, authentic, authoritative, certain, conclusive, definite, definitive, errorless, exact, factual, faultless, final, flawless, genuine, infallible, irrefutable, official, perfect, right, straight, strict, true, truthful, undeniable, undisputed, unimpeachable, unquestionable, unrefuted, fuselodge to Don for final testing and flight.



    Β*



    Β*

    I am not sure what that means but its on the way.
    It sounds like Kin finally (maybe?) got one "fuselodge" built right. That's good news!

    So can Kin do it again?......and again?......and again?.......and again?.......and again?.......

    Just curious, but did you hear anything from the other company that said they could build it right the first time?
    McDDD
    ProBro 415

  24. #624
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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine

    The problem isn't being able to produce the same kit over and over as they are built in jigs. The problem is getting the first one perfect to build the jig from. I have not heard from the other guys this week. I have been on another project working on their Gee Bee R3. I expect to have some information from them on the FM next week. We might even have a finished prototype.
    The last time I spoke with them they were even thinking it could be completed this week but you have to keep in mind that the first one is scratch built so there are always unforeseen obstacles you just can't plan for. With the work I have seen from the GB factory I wouldn't at all be surprised if they did get it right the first time.

    So we have the final FM prototypeshipped to Don (I recieved the tracking info this morning) from the original plant and the new plant might have a completed aircraft to show us within a week.

  25. #625

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    RE: Don Muddiman Flying Machine

    super news, I have a brand new .45 ys pump motor, will make that FM scream!


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