speedy72vega

What doyou guys think?
Yesterday, I was at the airfield, and a guy showed up with his two sons and about 3 or 4 planes (electric) and a bunch of batteries/charger. They were flying on FM, not 2.4ghz, and were flying their planes one right after the other. One would come down, and they would go get another one and go right back up in the air. They didn't stop forover 2 hours, and our field clearly states a 20 min pin time limit.
They weren't following any of the rules of the field, not following rotation, flying VERY close to the other pilots without calling it out, they crashed a Stryker about 15-20 feet from me while I was flying, and they forgot to unplug the battery on their foamie T28, went out to fly another plane, and their T28 took off along the ground behind my planes and hit a trash can.
They are dangerous in my opinion, and I was wondering what the polite response would be? Should Iforget being polite and tell them bluntly about the rules?If their T28 had been pointing the other direction, it would have crashed right into my planes.

What would you do in this situation?

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

Obviously, I wasn't there, so there may well be specific considerations here, but at first guess, I'd think something like this next time he's out there:

"Hi. We haven't met. I'm _______. Wanted to welcome you to the field, and ask if there's anything you need."

After a bit of brief greeting and socialization, something like:

"Hey, you're more than welcome here, and I hope we see you often. We do have a few rules around here though, that I wanted to make you familiar with. We like to limit pin time to 20 minutes or so so everyone has a chance to get some flying done, and we also ask folks to keep an eye on any electric powered airplanes as they're being charged. Here's a copy of the club rules with all the details, and an email address for $contact_person in case you have any questions."

tIANci

Just hand them the rule book or get the club safety officer to handle it.

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

Are these guys members?

Whether they are or not, I think gboulton has the best suggestion.

carrellh

Asking the safety officer to handle it would be fine, if he is there. Most of our club officers have full time jobs, and some work weekends, so chances are good that an officer will NOT be there at any given time.

gboulton's suggestion is good.

If they ignore the rules after having them explained: If the club own/leases the property, and the guys are not members, any member should be able to ask them to leave. Confrontations are uncomfortable but the behavior you described is rude and dangerous. If the field is connected to a chartered club, the club could be liable for their behavior.

If the field is 'public property,' and the government has not given anyone the authority to establish and enforce rules, you are probably going to have this situation from time to time.

Mike in DC

gboulton pretty much covers it, no matter what the transgression, but I'm wondering if you might be a little unrealistic about not wanting them to be flying constantly. At most places where I fly, the "pin limit" really only applies if other people are waiting for your frequency. It's not some kind of mandatory "rest" period. Even if someone's waiting for your channel, there's no rule (implied or stated) saying you can't pull out another plane on another channel and fly it.It sounds like they had three flyers in the group, so you could pretty much expect at least one of them to be in the air at any one time, just like if they were three unrelated flyers.

On the other hand, if there were people waiting for their channel, I'd say they need some assertiveness training if they waited for two hours! My personality is to avoid confrontation at all costs, but even I would demand time on the frequency after the allotted 20 minutes.

If you just wanted to fly as the only plane in the air, that's OK, but can be unrealistic on busy days.Still, I've seen people walk around the pits, explain the situation(new plane, expensive plane, etc.) and ask everybody to take a break so they can fly their precious baby.You can't get away with that too often though.

speedy72vega

Well, it's kind of an interesting situation. Our field is in a state park. The club built and maintains the field, but unfortunately it's still in a public access park. The club doesn't have the authority to restrict use, but the board of directors meets with the park officials once a month, and they have to get park approval for everything. All of the posted rules have been approved by the State parks dept. There is clearly a sign stating the 20 min pin limit, as well as the safety rules on a large bulletin board.
The club is in the process of trying to make AMA membership mandatory at the field, but park officials denied the request for the club membership to be mandatory.
As far as the safety officer, he's probably only there on weekends once or twice a month, and not both days of the weekend, so it's up to the club members to kinda police each other.

I think if I see them do the same thing again, I will do like gboulton suggested.I'm definitely going to bring it up at the next club meeting also, to see what the club suggests in this situation.
It's not so much the abuse of pin time that concerned me, luckily most were flying on 2.4 yesterday, but more the haphazard way they fly, and almost hitting me and several other pilots because they weren't flying by the rules. They never even attempted an apology or anything.

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

I think the big thing here...and this is kinda what was in my mind when i suggested what i did...is that we simply don't know who these fellows are, their background, or anything about them.

For that reason, it would seem to me that the best course of action is to presume they're merely ignorant of facility rules, and general "RC courtesy".

Let's face it...NOTHING you've described necessarily implies disregard for safety or guidelines. Ignoring a 20 min pin limit could just as easily be "What's a pin limit?" as it could be "**** you, I'll fly as much as I want." Putting an airplane down close to you without offering an appology could just as easily be "Wow...I really didn't consider the possible injury a small EP plane could do, sorry" as it could be "Stop whining, ya sissy".

In other words...they're behaviour could just as easily have been simply not KNOWING as it could be not CARING.

That's why i suggested the friendly...but firm...approach. It'd be a shame to chase away a father and two sons from the hobby for a simple misunderstanding. If they are genuinely new to the area, or hobby, or formal clubs, then they'll appreciate the welcome, they'll appreciate being addressed directly about any issues, and you'll likely have picked up some new blood for the club.

If, on the other hand, they're simply jerks...well, they'll have been warned their behaviour is on watch, they'll have a chance to correct it, and your club will have recourse to deal with the situation further if they don't.

speedy72vega

I certainly wasn't trying to imply that I wanted to chase them away, that's why I posted the question of what would be the polite way to approach the situation. I would however, like to see them learn to fly by the rules of the field for everyone's sake.
It's more enjoyable for me when I know I can fly my planes without worrying about being hit by aplane, or having someone coming head on at me when I come back around for my upwind leg, orhaving my planes destroyed on the ground because someone wasn't paying attention or doesn't know how to properly operate their quipment.
I don't by any means intend for these people to leave the field, I just wanted to hear how others would handle this situation.
Our field has a rotation that is supposed to be followed depending on what runway we are using and which way we are taking off. At no time, unless it's an equipment failure or emergency, are we supposed to fly over the spectator area or over the pilot side of the runway. They were repeatedly flying past the other pilots at low altitude, crossing back and forth over the runway, and not following the flight rotation.
Being as we're all pilots here (I assume), Iwas wanting some input from other pilots as to how they would either approach the situation, or how you yourself would prefer to be approached if you were doing something wrong. That's all.
I don't think they intended to disregard the rules, I just don't think they have taken the time to read the posted rules of the field. Most of the counties here have banned all RC flight in any public park, so the park flyers are all coming to the field, and don't know about flying in a structured environment, or about general RC courtesy.

beepee

speedy,

Do the state park officials give your club authority over field safety?  I hope so.  If not there is little more your group can do than encourage the individuals to follow safe practices.  If the club has enforcement authority, the club can put teeth in the discussion.

The individuals may be amenable to following field rules and safe practices.  They may be the type to tell you and everyone else to take a hike, they will fly like they please.  In either case they need to be approached, as you suggest.  If the club has safety authority and they are not cooperative, the club should be able to ban them from the field.  The parks authority SHOULD support your position.  Lots of shoulds here.

I have been a member of a club that operated from an open public flying field in a county park.  In this case (thankfully), the parks officials gave the club complete authority over maintaining safety.  On top of that, we had multiple safety officers and usually one was there on weekend days.  I assure you, there was action taken when safety principals were not followed (by the book or common sense).  Inclusive of banning.  The world (RC included) is full of different kinds of people.  Pursuit of a hobby that includes some potentially unsafe circumstances REQUIRES that authority over safety be brought down to the field level.

Good luck.  Hope all goes well.

Bedford

tIANci

We do not have proper flieds to fly at, but its a group of guys flying together. We do have problems about safety and air space hogging at times. Most of it the flyer does not realise what they are doing as they are having fun. A friendly word will always work. Its a hobby right?No one should end up in a fist fight over enforcement of rules.

speedy72vega

beepee, our club does have a safety officer, so I think they might have authority. I'm not exactly sure, as I've only been a mamber of this club for a few months myself. That's why I want to bring it up in the next monthly meeting, to see what the appropriate response would be.
tIANci, Idon't think they're realizing that there are rules, they are just out having fun. They just didn't read any of the posted rules.
I think I will just have a non confrontational chat with them next time they're there, just to let them know about the rule board, and hope they abide by it.

frieshoo

My Feedback: (20)

Maybe a little off topic:

I fly with a dude who literally flys one flight after another. He usually brings four planes (.40 to .60 size ARFs) to the field.

He has a rotation, and a pit crew (his wife). While he is flying, she is refueling and recharging his planes... No kidding I have seen him do this for 3 hours without taking a break.

I have seen him crash a four star, and follow that up with a spectacular bi-plane crash, and his wife brought him a third plane to fly while the other two were still smoldering in the high grass.

He's a cool dude, and flies the pattern. He is a 2.4 guy, so no beef with the pin.

Really, no one complains about him.

speedy72vega

At least he flies the pattern, and sounds like he abides by the rules somewhat, that's cool. As far as the crashed planes though, I think he should have at least gone out and cleaned up his mess before he took another plane up, just my opinion.
Or maybe he planned on more crashes and only wanted to pick them up once [sm=lol.gif]

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

This field sounds exactly like the Sepulveda Basin as far as City/State run and no control by anyone who is there to maintain order. Most folks can not relate to the free for all that ensues when there isn't a club to run things. On the other hand many folks want to insist on thier interpretation of "the rules" or better yet field etiquette.

My suggestion is to let it go. Say something if you want to but if it doesn't help don't let it bother you. Go there and have your fun just like the other guy is doing because it sounds like he is having more fun that you are right now. Maybe get to know him first because than you'd probably have a little more influence. Just let it go or you'll get burnt out on flying.

Hemikiller

My Feedback: (125)

gboultoun has the best way - be friendly and diplomatic, but explain that this is a club maintained field and that we have rules in place to ensure the safety and enjoyment of the hobby by everyone. An unsafe flyer is dangerous whether at a public or private field. Our club has a private field and two members can ground a person, if they determine he is acting or flying in an unsafe manner, or a plane if they determine it is unsafe to fly. If they cannot abide by those rules, or fly in a safe manner, then your club needs to determine what course of action they have the authority to take.

Grampaw

Letting strangers come onto the field, set a plane up and fly it for several rotations without anyone in the club (this is a club isn't it?) going over to introduce themselves and welcome them to the field, then acquaint them with the Ground rules. Allowing this is like letting a stranger walk in your house, head to the kitchen, open you fridge and dig in without even asking who the devil he is. If you guys are waiting for "George to do it" you'll lose your dinner, er flying site for sure. Speak up guys. Could be they just don't know that the way they just came out and began flying is not the proper way to go. Give them the benefit of the doubt, not the run of the whole field for the day! "He who hesitates, is lost" somone once said, and it still applies.

Cyclic Hardover

My Feedback: (3)

I see people like this from time to time. My methods of dealing with it are not widely accepted but it works and gets the point across and that is to bring out a plane that is a real POS and do the same thing back at them. When they see this is as annoying as H___, they'll get the point.

Oh yeh, Hello everyone

Grampaw

I forgot to include a query in my previous Post, so will tack it in here. It is about getting a 2.4 rig or whatever it is, that will prevent others from interferring with one's flying. I am just getting back into this RC thing, and have been reading various Posts trying to clear my head and find out what's what out there nowdays. So I read that getting into 2.4 and away from 72 will solve all Frequency interrupt problems.

I checked around and didn't find anything pertaining to 2.4. Maybe I was looking under the wrong bushes, so I've returned to this Thread and ask very humbly, for a bit of light on the 2.4 thing.

Also from what I read here, it seems rather expensive...more so than any radio stuff I am familiar with. Anyone out there care to enlighten an old geezer on the 2.4 subject. Appreciate it. Grampaw

509boatman55

I am also getting back into RC after a long absence. As I understand it, The 2.4 technology uses redundant, shifting multiple frequencies and the transmitter links to your receiver only on clear frequencies. Most posts I have read says you get a more "live" feel from your aircraft as the response time is much quicker. There are, however, some issues. I believe there is a tread under the Radio forum that addresses them. For me, I usually fly alone way out in the Eastern Washington desert so interference doesn't get me. I like the fact that unlimited #'s of people can fly together now but am sure it will bring problems all it's own. I am going to stick to my JR FM radio until I don't hear about 2.4 failures anymore.

509boatman55

In my expierience, people who act rude and stupid usually are just that. I am not a good enough pilot yet to do what you suggest, but I agree on principle. I would probably ask them(barely civilly) to read the damn rules or get the hell away from me and my planes. I have tried and tried to be nice to jerks like these in many situations but I usually just get a blank,drooling stare or an extended finger in my face. This guy is passing his idiot ways to his kids, so don"t even give him the courtesey of drawing him aside so as not to embarass him in front of his kids-dress him down in front of them if possible. I have had my fill of the death of common courtesy and common sense.