Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

You have nailed it again. Beautifuly simple.

People in debt when they retire - shouldn't. Your advice is so simple yet so few have figured it out. I know retired people that still are carrying a big mortgage as they didn't want to tap into their stock portfolio that was making them so much money. Now you know where they find themselves. Stock portfolio in the toilet and they owe more on their homes than they are worth in the present market. Recipe for disaster - you know it.

jessiej

It takes a talented writer to write information to be understood by those who can't read. I guess that skill is taught in technical writing 101.

I don't know where one goes to learn schoolgirl bickering as referenced by DT1027, but I hope he grasps the "don't do debt" principle.

jess

tailskid

My Feedback: (34)

edited for content

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

Thank you.

I'll be over here biting my tongue now...the rant is dying to come out.

bhady

You are spot on, your commentary is a vivid description of the decline of our society and values as my generation ( I grew up in the 50's and 60's) and those before us knew it. These days it's instant gratigfication, lack responsibility and accountability and "it's all about me" being the rule rather than the exception.

bhady

dreadnaut

My Feedback: (5)

I graduated from high school in 1974. I was one of ''those kids'' who's GPA was salvaged by band, and shop classes. This is not to say that I was a dummy. I built models from kits, (my favorite was a Sig Zlin Acrobat w/Fox.35 power) subscribed to RCM, and read the novels of R.A. Heinlein, and Aurthr C. Clark, (after an english teacher told me these were both hack writers) and played the Tuba in local productions of The Sound of Music, and South Pacific.

I bounced through the trades, starting as a chemical plant worker (basicaly a plumber who can take a stab at balancing the reactions of HCl, and NaOH), then becoming a machinist, working my way up to injection mold maker. It all started with a Guillow's Piper Cub when I was eleven.

One thing I really feel complelled to comment on is the whole concept of ''class''. When I was working in the ''blue collar'' trades, I was also taking classes at the local community college. I admit that my primary motivation, at first, was girls. Another was that Mr Heinlein, and Mr Clark had shamed me into correcting the fact that I had gotten through high school with the bare minimum of math. It took nearly ten years of part time, on again off agian attendance but I got through three semesters each of Calculus, General Physics, and two of chemistry. I also studied, and enjoyed very much, history, philosophy, anthropology and english composition.

I quit my job and trasferred to a State U. in 1990 and finished my degree in Mechanical Engineering two and a half years later. I am now looking to go back to work as a machinist, after years of working in architecture. This isn't going to be easy. My skills are a bit rusty, and I will have to convince someone that being a total wizard at AutoCAD will make learing MasterCAM a peice of cake (This is true, but it willl not get past most of the rote learners who work in human resources). Like the originator of this thread, I am a somewhat aspiring writer, but have given up on fiction because Heinlein, Clark, Asimov and Vonnegut put the damn bar to high. I started bloging on my travails as an ''intermodal'' commuter (I take my bike on the commuter train and ride the last two miles to work)

I recently bought my musicaly inclined granddaughter a 3/4 size guitar, but was saddend to find out that her mother got her Guitar Hero. She no longer touches the real guitar. I say Kudos to Robert Plant for not prostituing himself to record for GH, and am truly dissapointed with Carlos Santana for taking the bribe.

What inspired me to respond to this thread was that I just got a book today. I saw the author, Matthew B. Crawford, interviewd by Jon Stewart on the Daily Show. The book is called Shop Class as Soulcraft; An Iquiry Into the Value of Work The writer has a PhD in Political Philosopy and went to work in the ''Knowledge Industry'', became dissillusioned, quit, and started a motorcycle repair business.

Trisquire

I liked RCM too. I regret that I only have three left. I didn't know what "hand lapping a piston and cylinder" was in 1970, and I still don't. I hope that modern glow engines don't require that procedure.

Tom

DreamingTree1027

My Feedback: (5)

I didn't say you can choose not to participate in a recession, someone else did and I said I didn't know how you could do that.

I didn't say you could learn to be a talented writer in writing 101. I said you learned to write to your audience in tech writing. Writers abviously take more than that to do what they do. That does not mean that they need to write to those that can't read it means that the majority of people reading the article need to know what your saying.

When did I say you went to school to bicker?

I know how to not stay in debt but I can see how it happened to people. Some stores don't take cash anymore! How is that even possible. I go to pay with cash, they say we don't take cash. That makes NO sense. Cash is here now and you know we are good for it.

Oh well

Edit: Also I don't think it is right that "real" learning doesn't happen until college, it was just an observation. I know that when I was grades 1-12 I basically didn't have to do anything, I mean barely anything to get a good GPA. Never studied, just did homework and classwork and got a good grade. It is too easy.

Stickbuilder

Gordon and I were talking on the phone last night, and It dawned on me that I have not participated in any of the periods of recession for the past several years. We have been operating on a cash system (yes I do have a card for travel and real emergencies)(ooerative word being real). It works very well. You only need access your bank account when you see something that you would like to purchase. If the money is there, and you really want to make the purchase, then do so. If the funds are lacking, then wait until you do have the resources to make the purchase. Paying cash (actually a check or debit card) is not an original concept. when the market crashed in October, 1929, my Grandfather, and my Father actually prospered, since they had the resources to purchase land, machinery etc. at distressed prices. Those who had not planned ahead paid the consequences. Basic economics has not changed. What has to change is the attitude of the public. The public can no longer afford to spend more than they earn. Just have a look at the percentage of the failed mortgages to see the ramifications of that. Your local newspaper will be full of these notices. How sad.


Bill, AMA 4720

Prairie Mike

Jeez, makes me want to sell all my airplanes & kits and go cut my wrists. Which to do first.......................
(Now watch the offers for .03 on the 1.00 roll in.

dreadnaut

My Feedback: (5)

I heard this somewhere too, and I get it. One one hand, we are all participating. This is the same thing as saying I wear a seat belt because I obey the laws of physics. I think they are talking more about a mindset. I do not plan on taking the seatbelts out of my car because I refuse to ''participate'' in that inertia BS, but at the same time I am not going to slow down wnd never drive over fifteen MPH. I lost a job in 2003 that resulted in forcing me to sell my home halfway up the bubble. I recently bought back in at (I hope) rock bottom.

Even though I took writting 101, (and I am not claiming to be talented either, just competent) and it did help with some mechanical issues, I learned more about writing from reading a lot. The key is learing to be clear, consise and to the point.

dreadnaut

My Feedback: (5)

In 1929 my grandfather was a recent immigrant who was fairly unsophisticated in the world of finance. He didn't have wealth, but had a strong work ethic. In that year he and his sons, including my father, built a house from plans purchased from a Sears Roebuck calalog, and with materials that were purchaced or scrounged. My father tells me that one wall of the basement is reinforced with the frame of a Model T Ford found in a dump.

The house still stands. It was made from concrete blocks molded with portland cement, sand from the desert around the house, in a mold from Sears Roebuck. I intend to borrow that mold, in the possesion of my 84 year old father, to build the front retaining wall at my new house. The blocks are chamfered and it will be a unique touch. Maybe then the wife will let me start building models again.

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

For me, at least (and I'm not saying you're wrong...just that the phrase doesn't mean this to me and my family) the analogy doesn't work.

In our case it really is a conscience effort and decision NOT to do the things that led us here, NOT to do the things that will keep us here, and NOT to do the things that 'everbody" says you "have to do because of the economy."

We're spending more...not less. Everyone's selling cars, or cutting back on how many they have...we've bought 2 in the last 18 months.
We're traveling more...not less. 3 extended trips already this year, with a 4th planned.
We're benefiting...not "suffering". We're putting MORE into savings than we've been able to any time in the last 5 years...with no change in income.

I dunno...maybe that is "a mindset"...but in our case, my wife and I quite literally have discussions that begin with "What is everyone else doing in _____ situation? Fine...let's do the opposite."

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

And THAT, precisely, is the point of this entire thread.

Your grandfather PRODUCED.

He CREATED VALUE.

My sigline for quite awhile expressed the insanity of being taught that giving is noble.

How, after all, can one give that which has not been created?

DreamingTree1027

My Feedback: (5)

I do that for the most part out of simplicity and ease. Take a look at your account and see if you have enough money. It is easy on a budget as I am because the answer is almost always no Anyways the problem with that is house car etc payments. You have to build your credit score if you don't want to pay twice as much for the car because of interest. I know there are people that can afford to buy a car with cash straight up, but I am not one of them..yet, lol.

gboulton - That is great that everything is fine for you, however, many people have a changed or removed income. They have no choice and can not continue to live like they did. Of course, if they had prepared better it probably wouldn't be as bad. There is only so much someone can prepare before becoming a paranoid guy who saves all of his money for a giant crash of all computers. I don't think it is a mindset in your case more of the fact that you both have your jobs(or your income hasn't changed whatever) but if it did you wouldnt be doing all of these things. The fact that you have secure jobs allows you to take advantage of lower prices of...well everything.

Steve J

My Feedback: (4)

The original post is spot on. My son is one of the "geeks" and has now succumb to peer pressure and dropped most of the STEM classes. I beg him to come to the airplane field and he won't do it. But Call of Duty (COD) on the X-box gets all his attention.

Other things I think it is sad we have lost:
* the ability to count change
* the need to say thank you
* baseball (any yahoo can pay soccer)

Stickbuilder

Living within your means does not mean that you sit and hoard like some miser. It does mean that you don't take on a mortgage on a $500,000.00 home when your income is only 40 grand per year. Just because someone that you know lives in an expensive home, and drives a new BMW does not mean that everyone has the right to do the same. Maybe he earns 400 grand per year.

I don't participate in the recession, since my standard of living is not based on credit, it doesn't have to change nearly as much as one who does use credit for the basics. Car payments? What the heck is that? I haven't had a car payment in forever it seems. I also haven't bought a new car in forever either....I'm in my mid 60's. I have to stop and wonder why one would take on a mortgage that would still be active when you were at retirement age. Yes, I know some still are dealing with mortgages into their 70's and possibly further. This is begging for trouble.

I may not live quite as high on the hog as some, but it'll take more to shake me off.

Bill, AMA 4720

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

Ok...the rant can't stay contained any more.

See...there's the presumption that's always made when this conversation starts up. "Oh, wow, happy things are going well for you, but others..." You, specifically Tree, at least acknowledge "if they had prepared better it probably wouldn't be as bad". While true, I suppose, it misses the point.

My wife and I really aren't "well off" by any stretch. We make considerably less than many in our small tract-house starter home neighborhood. Heck, she works part time...and only 9 months a year at that...for less an hour than I made in the 80's delivering pizzas. And me? I'm just a DBA for a healthcare company. I'll grant...that's not a bad salary, but even combined with the wife's, it's NOWHERE near the magic "6 digit income".

Secure jobs, you say? I was 1 employee away...in a company that laid off 10% of a 4,000 person department...ONE EMPLOYEE AWAY...from being jobless last November. There will be no COLA or merit raise this year...indeed, pay cuts loom on the horizon. My wife? Were it not for the re-location of a former co-worker's husband, she wouldn't be returning to work this August either.

There's nothing special or unique or "blessed" about our situation...we are quite firmly planted in what the good ole' gubmint and IRS call "middle class", and worked our butts off for every bit of it.

But that's the whole point...indeed, the whole point of the original post. It's not about 'doing well', or having lots of money, or even 'being prepared'.

It's about living within your means, and trading value for value.

We didn't do anything special to 'prepare' (other than following advice that's been around longer than any of us...save for a rainy day). We simply made a conscious decision a few years ago to do one very very SIMPLE thing...the same thing I said above, and I'll say it again:

We
Don't
Do
Debt

Was it EASY to become debt free? Heck no. Simple? Yes. But not easy. In fact, to be honest, it pretty much sucked canal water. We drove some god awful bad vehicles, we ate a TON of food that came out of white boxes with black labels, and we didn't see the inside of ANY restaurant unless we worked in it. Relatives got a hand made craft and a card for Christmas. Hobbies? Pfft...chyeah, right. our "hobby" was buying our life back.

And don't think for a moment that that's an over-dramatization. We quite LITERALLY (I took writing 101 too, and I know what the word means) were doing just that...buying our life back.

(All following references to "you" refer to the general "you", not any specific member of RCU or poster in this thread.)

See...debt is selling your life to another person. You wanted something of value...a car, maybe. But you had no value to trade for it. You didn't have a tangible item you'd created to offer in exchange, and you hadn't amassed a large enough store of value (money) to offer in exchange.

So you took a car loan. You offered the promise of future value in exchange for the car.

How are you to fulfill that promise? Simple...by the only means you can. By exchanging some number of hours...SOME PART OF YOUR LIFE...for money, which you immediately MUST send to the car dealer.

And therein lies the rub. You MUST send that money...the product of your LIFE...to someone else. Otherwise, they'll come take THEIR car back.

So...there you sit, with your nifty new automobile...never realizing you own NOTHING. You possess absolutely NOTHING of value. The car? Nope...that's the bank's. Your time? Nope...already promised that to the bank too.

Heaven help you if even the first breath of wind disturbs your house of cards...like it has the past 12 months. Your employer (who's buried in debt) can't sell enough widgets (made by a parent company buried in debt), and thus must cut back. But see...they can't cut back by reducing basic expenses...nono...those are all FINANCED...someone else owns THEIR life...so they cut back the only place they can. YOU.

But hey...the bank still owns YOUR life...and they want payment. You have, however, nothing to offer them...the ONLY thing you could pay with...FUTURE claim on your time...is now worthless. Your house, your car, all those wonderful things you "owned"...gone.

Why?

Because just like the original post said...we don't BUILD, we don't CREATE...as a nation, we do not amass, produce, or store value.

We serve, we sell, we speculate, and we consume...but we CREATE nothing.

Some of us saw what should have been obvious to the rest...and we busted our humps to buy ourselves out of slavery.

We don't have any magic formula, or stroke of luck. Some of us have lost jobs too...others on thin ice. Some of us have watched the price of our home plummet too. We pay the same high gas prices and inflated grocery prices the rest of you do.

But our lives...and everything in them...belong to US. We own value, can create more value, and will accept nothing BUT value in trade for it.

It ain't luck..it ain't fortune...it ain't "blessings".

Quite simply, we decided to live our lives like nobody else.

So now we get to live our lives like nobody else.

DreamingTree1027

My Feedback: (5)

I understand what you are saying and also do not know why someone might buy a house when retired. I think there is just a difference in age. You have no payments and such which is nice and helps minimize the risk in this economy. I on the other hand am just starting these types of payments. Doing well does not mean you are rich, just means that you are happy and that you still have jobs. Now your assuming.

gboulton: The reason I said you were doing well is because you said you had no change in income. That is why I "assumed" the things I did. Congratulations on being debt free.

Stickbuilder

Gordon and all,

The only reason that Banks have for offering Drive Thru bankins is so they can see their car every month when you drop off the payment.

Bill, AMA 4720

Javier-RCU

My Feedback: (6)

This is by far the best thread that i have ever read here in RCU. All of this is true. Back in 40's USA economy was based 80% in production (adding value) and 20% in services. Today the scenario is virtually inverse. USA has been suffering a transformation. Today the money add value by itself, more value than the work, this is a tragedy because people prefers to speculate instead of produce, in order to make fortune.

When money produces money, the economy turns inmoral.

We have as a true rc modelers, the oportunity to try the change in the young people minds. In our RC Club the kids and young people under 18 can practice the hobby for free. They can use the runway and have access to support from the senior members in training and stuff for build his projects.

We achieve the interest of the academy, and by now we have a venture with a local university to run a course in RC modeling for engineering students. You can see this in our web at:

http://www.clubloshalcones.com/flightschool.html

In this course the students learn about aerodynamics and design an RC plane from scratch as a task to be evaluated at the end of the course. They learn to fly too. The university provides engines, and RC electronics up to for five students task teams.

I know this is only a sand grain, but i want to talk about this because there is a big coincidence between the motivations of this program and the first post in this thread.

Regards,

Javier

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

Show me a man who did not create the value stored in his money, and I'll show you a man who will soon find himself without either.

Amen. Physics, math, chemistry, fluid dynamics, personal responsibility, patience, craftsmanship, safety, organization, planning...these are the things aviation (be it model or scale) pass on.

Talk away! A beach starts with a single grain.

JNorton

My Feedback: (2)

I'd like to put forth another idea that ties in with what is being discussed. Reading. If you can read you can educate yourself.

Education doesn't start at college; it starts with the ability to read. I still remember, “The Boys First Book of Radio and Electronics”! It taught me how to build my first crystal radio set while I was in the second grade. By following the descriptions and drawings I built my own and fueled a lifelong love of electronics.

The reading comprehension level in this country has fallen which required the dummying down in magazines and periodicals. Current textbooks are a joke. Where once there was interesting writing that enlightened there is now bland pap that would not fire the interest of a budding Albert Einstein much less a normal student. I loved biology – my daughter brought home her biology text book - the subject was photosynthesis. Opening the book I was struck by 2” wide margins and lots of photographs and very little text. And nothing that described what a wonderful process it was beyond the basic fact that energy was converted into food by sunlight -nothing that would fuel the imagination - and spark a real interest in the subject.

You see it happen here on the forums all the time. I’ve even seen people ask a question that was answered three or four posts above theirs. They would rather ask the question than read or search for the answer.

I don’t have the answer. Magazines such as Popular Mechanics that had such wonderful drawings and articles describing how to build things such as a pool table using plywood and a tensioned playing surface no longer exist.
My two cents,
John

rckrazy57

My Feedback: (61)

As a 17 year old kid entering my senior year in high school, I can attribute to much of what ctdahle talks about. Many of my peers, and even myself occasionally, find it difficult to grasp the concept of hard work and delayed gratification. If it can't happen instantly it can't happen at all. I guess I can consider myself lucky however. Around 11 years old, I gave up playing video games and watching t.v. non-stop for flying model planes. I started off with $300 I raised selling glowsticks and literally took off from there. I kept myself going by rebuilding crashed planes from the trashcan and slowly began to take over the garage. With the constant help and generosity of fellow club members, I was able to learn how good it felt to be able to take pride in something I had made and learned how to be financially independant. but like allans put it, it took a 9th grade geography teacher, a 10th grade english teacher, and a 11th grade physics teacher for me to apply that same passion for learning to school. It was their eagerness to teach and learn themselves that created an environment where someone would want to learn. Even outside of school, my dad showed me how much fun running and fixing my own can could be. One friend showed me how much fun playing Piano could be, and another showed me how much fun building a solar boat, building a homemade potters throwing wheel, and making your own icecream could be, and yet another friend showed me that paying attention in class isn't so bad. Finding inspiration and joy in the simple things is not difficult, only requiring an open mind, which is something I wasn't taught to do until I had that geography teacher. my generation has been raised in a society in which parents participate in their kids lives less and less. Not only do dads work, but moms as well. It is easier to stick a kid in front of the t.v. than to play ball with him/her. Its easier to put on a movie than a block party or barbeque. Its easier to play video games than to go on a bike ride. Kids and teens learn by example and from what they see around them. 90% of the really active kids I know have really involved parents, and I love my parents, but it would be nice if they were more involved with what I do. I poked my head into a youth football parent meeting at our community clubhouse the other day and noticed that every single parent was quite significantly overweight (no offense), and that each parent had either a starbucks drink, a soda, or a texting cell phone in their hand. I feel it difficult to expect a kid to want to exercise and be healthy if the parents don't feel like showing them how. All I'm saying is that kids learn by example of their elders and that if they aren't taught how to keep an open mind and to look around at the world, things will only go further down hill.

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

rckrazy,

You're the kind of kid that gives us "old farts" hope. And, more significantly, the kind of kid I hope I'm raising.

You keep that kinda of outlook, and you'll turn into a pretty darned fine human being, imo.