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  1. #26
    gboulton's Avatar
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    Rand said it better than I ever could...

    "To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will. Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except by the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgment of the traders. Money demands of you the recognition that men must work for their own benefit, not for their own injury, for their gain, not their loss – the recognition that they are not beasts of burden, born to carry the weight of your misery – that you must offer them values, not wounds – that the common bond among men is not the exchange of suffering, but the exchange of goods. Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest they offer, but the best your money can find. And when men live by trade – with reason, not force, as their final arbiter – it is the best product that wins, the best performance, the man of best judgment and highest ability – and the degree of a man's productiveness is the degree of his reward. This is the code of existence whose tool and symbol is money."
    For a long time, we knew that.

    For a short time afterward, we knew it, but were unable or unwilling to rise to it.

    Recently, we've chosen to ignore it...in the hopes that it would go away.

    Today, we make fun of those who refuse to let it do so.
    ‘ǝʌısuǝdxǝ sΔ± dn puɐ dn sΔ± uʍop \'\'\'\'pΗΚ‡ΙΉΗΚŒuΔ± puɐ ʍo1 uǝΙ₯ʍ

  2. #27
    Stickbuilder's Avatar
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    Now the Moderators are selectively removing posts without even notification as to the act, or to the reason. I guess they just like those %%$^&& ARF's too much.

    Bill
    Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

  3. #28

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    RE: An ARF Nation


    ORIGINAL: ctdahle

    I read the ''boring airplane'' thread and became very depressed.

    Lots of people lamenting that very few people build, or even have the skill to build anything anymore, and lots of others explaining, accurately, why building is impractical, uneconomical and unnecessary. The tragedy is that both sides are right and it is a phenomenon that permeates American culture. Writer Michael Pollan addressed the same topic in the New York Times today, explaining how the preparation of good food has mutated from something every family did for itself, to something done by corporations and their minimum wage workers, or by superstar chefs on television shows, but not by normal people.

    We have number crunched everything that takes effort, patience, practice, knowlege, and skill, turned it into drudgework and delegated it to others.

    Now things like building model airplanes, cooking good meals, making heirloom quality furniture, and crocheting baby quilts, along with all of the character building skills, qualities, and values that go with those things have become relics.

    I am firmly on the side of the scratch builder, the hand quilter, the home gardener and chef. The fact that we are too bloody lazy to build our own model planes or cook our own scampi is a national disaster. The rise of ARF culture is symptomatic of America's moral decline, and to pass it off with the platitude ''to each his own'' is a cop out, an apathetic acceptance of an American nation in decline, forfeiting its role as a beacon of freedom, a crucible of innovation, and the undisputed leader in technical skill and industrial quality.

    An ARF nation is a nation on the ropes, unable to educate it's children, feed itself, manage it's ports, appropriately regulate it's economy, fabricate it's own semi-conductors, provide its own customer service centers or maintain it's own industries. An ARF nation is a dying nation.
    do you own any ARF's

  4. #29
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    RE: An ARF Nation


    ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

    Now the Moderators are selectively removing posts without even notification as to the act, or to the reason. I guess they just like those %%$^&& ARF's too much.

    Bill
    You need a reason Bill?

    Please resist the urge to curse, flame, degrade, insult or embarrass someone in your post.

    I'm sorry, but the post was reported so my hand was forced,


    Mike B. AMA# 42400 www.gettingairborne.com
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    \"Those are my principles. If you don’t like them, I have others.\" - Groucho Marx

  5. #30

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    RE: An ARF Nation

    Threads like this just bother me and should be shut down. It has little to do with ARF's and more to do with one mans feelings about his country. I guess we can post any kind of thread as long as we throw in a few key words ( ARF, RC Plane, Hobby, Helicopter, Engine etc etc.)

  6. #31
    Stickbuilder's Avatar
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    RE: An ARF Nation


    ORIGINAL: MetallicaJunkie

    I love ARFs, and i like kits, but dont have enough time to build, and on the weekends id rather be flying. I live in deep south texas so the winters here are very mild, and there is no building season like up north........... Im sure my attitude will change if i live long enough to retire

    Sorry if I turned the heat up too much for you.

    Bill
    Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

  7. #32
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    Im amazed this hasn't been locked yet...

    I think its true that this ARF situation IS just a symptom. But as others have pointed out its also a natural progression of civilization. How many of you built your own house with hand tools?? Or grew your own cotton and wove your clothes? Or built your radio from a kit?

    Time goes on. Its true that building will become a niche hobby. As a builder myself I am sorry about that but its just life. I'll need to learn to scratch build more, but the flip side of that is that scratch building could possibly be even more rewarding than kit building.

    I think what we are all really lamenting here is that the popularity of ARFs has made it economically unattractive for kit companies to make builders kits for those of us that still want them. Its sad but true. On the flip side we should be happy that ARFs are bringing in many newcomers to the hobby. Just 5-10 years ago all the discussion was about how the hobby was dying out and few people below retirement age get started in it anymore. ARFs are changing that trend in a good way.


    And on the point about that US made engine. I think we are oversimplifying. The fact of the matter is that even if that guy wanted to compete on value, he simply cannot. Not when US labr gets paid in an hour what Chinese workers make in a day or more. Its impossible, so long as the standard of living, and hence labor cost, in the US/Eurpoe is soo much higher than Asia/Africa/etc. The only way US companies will ever be able to compete on value is when our standard of living goes way down, or goes way up. And the consensus opinion seems to be that there simply is not enough energy and resources in the world to have 6 billion people living as extravagantly as we do in the US. Times are gonna change....

    BTW, It would be interesting to hear from our RCU brothers in other countries what the ARF vs. building situation is like elsewhere.... Is this really more "downfall of America" gloom-speak or is it worldwide trend as society evolves.
    AMA 727884 / IMAA 40599 / Pro Bro 2056 / Club Saito #316

  8. #33

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    RE: An ARF Nation

    My first FF was a Scientific Mercury. It was a kit. In that kit was a band sawed blank for a prop. You had to carve it yourself.
    I have six aircraft now. One I built from a kit, one I built from plans and one a friend built for me. The others are ARF's.
    I fail to see where my having ARF's means the end of my country.
    BTW I broke that prop the first time I used it. I haven't carved one since.
    dirty old men need love too.

  9. #34
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    ARFs, kt build, scratch build. What would you call this ARF rescued from a very high tree with damage to wing and fiberglass fuselage broken in half. I don't know what your skill level is but I would challenge anyone to put this Bird of Time back in the air after it was essentially abandon to the trash. I'll post the finished result later, just wanted to show what was involved.
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  10. #35
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    ORIGINAL: Red Scholefield

    ARFs, kt build, scratch build. What would you call this ARF rescued from a very high tree with damage to wing and fiberglass fuselage broken in half. I don't know what your skill level is but I would challenge anyone to put this Bird of Time back in the air after it was essentially abandon to the trash. I'll post the finished result later, just wanted to show what was involved.
    I know who could do this, in a heartbeat. Check out the rebuild of the Aeroworks 1.20 Yak 54 Thread and follow a "Master" at work (Ralph White). I was very impressed with the repair. I definitely would have thrown the bird in the trash.
    Have Great Day!
    Smacka

  11. #36
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    Trashed ARFs can be a constant supply of models for those that like the rebuilding challenge. Here is another one "saved". In fact there were two as you can see. Gave one in the bones to a flying buddy that likes to cover models.

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  12. #37

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    RE: An ARF Nation

    where is ctdahle i see he's logged in today, surely he must have seen the new posts in the thread he or she started. I have kits and I have ARF's, but I don't get a lot of time to work on airplanes, I am fairly young at 33 and my family is young. I have wife and 2 kids 1 and 5 years of age so getting down to the workshop is minimal at best. to generalize by saying I am lazy because i build ARF's is crazy I have a deep passion for flying all my model airplanes ARF's and kits alike. so I guess if you have ever built an ARF or put a T.V. dinner in a microwave, chose to use a weed eater or a lawn mower instead of scissors, opted to drive two blocks instead of walk your lazy and your country is going down hill

  13. #38
    gboulton's Avatar
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    ORIGINAL: jharkin
    Im amazed this hasn't been locked yet...
    I'm not...and remain more puzzled that anyone thinks it should have been. *shrug*

    I think its true that this ARF situation IS just a symptom. But as others have pointed out its also a natural progression of civilization. How many of you built your own house with hand tools?? Or grew your own cotton and wove your clothes? Or built your radio from a kit?
    Well...I HAVE built a 2 story playhouse, and assisted with construction of a large barn, with hand tools. And radios? Whoo boy...I don't think I could COUNT the number of radios I've built from kits, or repaired using parts from another, or whatever. Any of that count?

    In all seriousness however...the reminder that most of us don't build other things really doesn't speak to the point...at least, not the point I think is significant here...

    The fact of the matter is that even if that guy wanted to compete on value, he simply cannot. Not when US labr gets paid in an hour what Chinese workers make in a day or more.
    Here, however, IS precisely the point...or, at least an illustration of it.

    You and others who point out, as an example, that few of us built our own cars have, certainly, a valid point. It would, indeed, be silly to argue that simply because many choose to buy pre-made airplanes that our country is in deep trouble.

    However...SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE is making those cars...or that house...or those radios...or your ARF. And that somebody AIN'T US.

    You say...quite correctly...that the US maker of an engine will find it quite difficult, if not impossible, to compete on value. I'll agree with the point you're trying to make, but not with the syntax. Here's why:

    VALUE is the worth of the item...what it brings to the table. I see NO REASON that a man in Anytown, USA can't compete on that level. Can an American shop build an engine that runs as well, has as much power, lasts as long, starts as easily, weighs the same, and looks as attractive as any other engine in the world? Absolutely. That's value.

    What I believe you meant, however (and by all means, please correct me if I'm wrong), was that he'll be unable to offer that engine at the same PRICE, due to the costs of US labor and materials. With that, i absolutely agree...and that is PRECISELY the problem.

    WHY is my effort to turn a crankshaft worth more than the effort of any other individual elsewhere? Presuming we turn the same quality crankshaft, it's not. So why should I be paid more to do it? Well...there can really be only one of two reasons:

    1) I'm unreasonable. I'm demanding more for my time and effort than is reasonable. You've chosen to pay that salary, and have thus made a poor decision. When you make poor decisions in business, your business ought to fail.

    2) I'm rare. It's difficult to find anyone in our country with the skill I have, thus I'm a valuable commodity who can charge more than a similar laborer elsewhere.

    So...wait...what we're saying here is that it's become increasingly unusual to find someone who can PRODUCE something...so much so that the only way a manufacturer here can do so is to pay UNREASONABLE rates for his labor, and then BULLY potential customers into buying his product simply because he did so??

    Gee...sound familiar?

    =====================
    ORIGINAL: dirtybird
    I fail to see where my having ARF's means the end of my country.
    I fail to see it to...as several of us have pointed out...repeatedly. Not one person in this thread has made the assertion you're rejecting.

    Sneezing doesn't give you hay fever. Hay fever does, however, cause you to sneeze.

    Buying ARFs doesn't mean the end of your country...a country that's dying, however, will see an explosion of popularity in such things as ARFs.

    ORIGINAL: weezle
    to generalize by saying I am lazy because i build ARF's is crazy
    Have you made decisions to prioritize other things above workshop time? Of course you have. You seem to prefer supporting your family, and spending time being a parent to your children, over building airplanes. I know, how dare you, right?

    Admittedly...you COULD have chosen to have fewer airplanes than you do, and limited yourself to those you could build in the limited time you've made available for such activities.

    But...er...Who's called you lazy?

    so I guess if you have ever built an ARF or put a T.V. dinner in a microwave, chose to use a weed eater or a lawn mower instead of scissors, opted to drive two blocks instead of walk your lazy and your country is going down hill
    Who's generalizing now?

    ‘ǝʌısuǝdxǝ sΔ± dn puɐ dn sΔ± uʍop \'\'\'\'pΗΚ‡ΙΉΗΚŒuΔ± puɐ ʍo1 uǝΙ₯ʍ

  14. #39
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    At what point is a thread closed because the participants are adding no more value? This is becoming post after post of repeated debates. Speaking strictly for myself, I believe the intent of the author, who threw this grenade then split, has been covered ...many fold over...and over...and over...and over...and...well, you get the message
    Have Great Day!
    Smacka

  15. #40

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    RE: An ARF Nation


    ORIGINAL: gboulton

    ORIGINAL: jharkin
    Im amazed this hasn't been locked yet...
    I'm not...and remain more puzzled that anyone thinks it should have been. *shrug*

    I think its true that this ARF situation IS just a symptom. But as others have pointed out its also a natural progression of civilization. How many of you built your own house with hand tools?? Or grew your own cotton and wove your clothes? Or built your radio from a kit?
    Well...I HAVE built a 2 story playhouse, and assisted with construction of a large barn, with hand tools. And radios? Whoo boy...I don't think I could COUNT the number of radios I've built from kits, or repaired using parts from another, or whatever. Any of that count?

    In all seriousness however...the reminder that most of us don't build other things really doesn't speak to the point...at least, not the point I think is significant here...

    The fact of the matter is that even if that guy wanted to compete on value, he simply cannot. Not when US labr gets paid in an hour what Chinese workers make in a day or more.
    Here, however, IS precisely the point...or, at least an illustration of it.

    You and others who point out, as an example, that few of us built our own cars have, certainly, a valid point. It would, indeed, be silly to argue that simply because many choose to buy pre-made airplanes that our country is in deep trouble.

    However...SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE is making those cars...or that house...or those radios...or your ARF. And that somebody AIN'T US.

    You say...quite correctly...that the US maker of an engine will find it quite difficult, if not impossible, to compete on value. I'll agree with the point you're trying to make, but not with the syntax. Here's why:

    VALUE is the worth of the item...what it brings to the table. I see NO REASON that a man in Anytown, USA can't compete on that level. Can an American shop build an engine that runs as well, has as much power, lasts as long, starts as easily, weighs the same, and looks as attractive as any other engine in the world? Absolutely. That's value.

    What I believe you meant, however (and by all means, please correct me if I'm wrong), was that he'll be unable to offer that engine at the same PRICE, due to the costs of US labor and materials. With that, i absolutely agree...and that is PRECISELY the problem.

    WHY is my effort to turn a crankshaft worth more than the effort of any other individual elsewhere? Presuming we turn the same quality crankshaft, it's not. So why should I be paid more to do it? Well...there can really be only one of two reasons:

    1) I'm unreasonable. I'm demanding more for my time and effort than is reasonable. You've chosen to pay that salary, and have thus made a poor decision. When you make poor decisions in business, your business ought to fail.

    2) I'm rare. It's difficult to find anyone in our country with the skill I have, thus I'm a valuable commodity who can charge more than a similar laborer elsewhere.

    So...wait...what we're saying here is that it's become increasingly unusual to find someone who can PRODUCE something...so much so that the only way a manufacturer here can do so is to pay UNREASONABLE rates for his labor, and then BULLY potential customers into buying his product simply because he did so??

    Gee...sound familiar?

    =====================
    ORIGINAL: dirtybird
    I fail to see where my having ARF's means the end of my country.
    I fail to see it to...as several of us have pointed out...repeatedly. Not one person in this thread has made the assertion you're rejecting.

    Sneezing doesn't give you hay fever. Hay fever does, however, cause you to sneeze.

    Buying ARFs doesn't mean the end of your country...a country that's dying, however, will see an explosion of popularity in such things as ARFs.

    ORIGINAL: weezle
    to generalize by saying I am lazy because i build ARF's is crazy
    Have you made decisions to prioritize other things above workshop time? Of course you have. You seem to prefer supporting your family, and spending time being a parent to your children, over building airplanes. I know, how dare you, right?

    Admittedly...you COULD have chosen to have fewer airplanes than you do, and limited yourself to those you could build in the limited time you've made available for such activities.

    But...er...Who's called you lazy?

    so I guess if you have ever built an ARF or put a T.V. dinner in a microwave, chose to use a weed eater or a lawn mower instead of scissors, opted to drive two blocks instead of walk your lazy and your country is going down hill
    Who's generalizing now?

    i feel like laziness is being implied and i was being sarcastic about the lawn mower and what not. I have chosen to build and FLY less to make myself completely available to my family, but when some stranger feels like they have the right to tell me how to spend my time and money its upsetting to say the least.

    on the flipside i am going to start a thread called: If always build from a kit or plans and look down on those who don't you have to much time on your hands. do you think it will hit 1000 posts

  16. #41

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    RE: An ARF Nation


    gboulton Date 8/7/2009 9:26 AM

    Buying ARFs doesn't mean the end of your country...a country that's dying, however, will see an explosion of popularity in such things as ARFs.
    Finally, an assertion that... a) makes sense, b) I personally can agree with, and c) finally does get to the point of this thread. My previous attempt at a post in this thread did contradict this, but I was disagreeing with I discerned to be the focus of the thread. I am now seeing what gboulton and others are trying to say.

    If you look at this in a broader sense than just our minute sector of the economy, the above quote does hit home. Our parents (and for the older set, your ) generation, did for themselves, with money accumulated in a local economy, earned by creating consumable goods to be purchased by others. Our national economy has a huge section of this cycle missing, since the goods we consume aren't made here.

    Sorry, just thinking it out for myself here. It does make sense now.

    I still fly the damn ARF's though.

  17. #42

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    RE: An ARF Nation


    ORIGINAL: weezle


    on the flipside i am going to start a thread called: If always build from a kit or plans and look down on those who don't you have to much time on your hands. do you think it will hit 1000 posts
    You can probably count on at least 100 from Stickbuilder alone.

  18. #43
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    At what point is a thread closed because the participants are adding no more value?
    I would presume that happens when the participants are adding no more value.

    but when some stranger feels like they have the right to tell me how to spend my time and money its upsetting to say the least.
    I'd certainly agree. I'm not at all sure there's any example of that in this thread however, so I fail to see your point. Quite possibly a flaw on my part, I readily admit. Care to elaborate?

    on the flipside i am going to start a thread called: If always build from a kit or plans and look down on those who don't you have to much time on your hands. do you think it will hit 1000 posts
    Wouldn't shock me if it did. Roughly 950 of them would be (wrongly) accusing StickBuilder of being in that group.

    If you look at this in a broader sense than just our minute sector of the economy, the above quote does hit home. Our parents (and for the older set, your ) generation, did for themselves, with money accumulated in a local economy, earned by creating consumable goods to be purchased by others. Our national economy has a huge section of this cycle missing, since the goods we consume aren't made here.
    Precisely. Apparently there IS still some contribution going on in this thread.

    You are, however, exactly right. The original assertion was...and always has been...that any country who produces so little of its own goods that, by and large, not even its toy airplanes are made here is a country in trouble...and that's sad.
    ‘ǝʌısuǝdxǝ sΔ± dn puɐ dn sΔ± uʍop \'\'\'\'pΗΚ‡ΙΉΗΚŒuΔ± puɐ ʍo1 uǝΙ₯ʍ

  19. #44
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    Okay Mike, Where is the hit on the Robo Cat for making the attack on me? C'mon where is it? All members are created equal, but some are apparently more equal than others. FOUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Bill, Waco Brother #1

    (sorry Robo, I just had to do it)
    Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

  20. #45

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    RE: An ARF Nation

    so the original poster wasn't implying that I shouldn't spend my time and money on an ARF ?

    Aren't americans the reason our country produces so little of its own goods, constantly looking for bottom dollar pricing.

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    RE: An ARF Nation

    Well people, i'm going to toss my (probably worthless) opinion in here too.
    We all live in what is now a 'Global Economy'. There is no longer a such thing as 'Made in__________(insert country here). Just about every product used and sold in almost every country in the world is a potluck of parts made somewhere else, and assembled into a product that we use.
    This is true from the most expensive automobile right down to the simple toothbrush that we use. Even if you did find a product that was manufactured entirely in one country, the machines used to produce that product certainly weren't.
    I work for Ford Motor Company, and Ford vehicles (and every other automobile for that matter) are made from products produced all over the world; USA, Japan, China, Malaysia, Australia, Mexico, France, the list goes on and on. However, the vehicles built and sold in all of THOSE countries most certainly contain parts made here in the good ol US of A also. There is no way any one country could possibly produce every single component, as well as the raw materials neccessary, of a very complex product such as an automobile, TV, Microwave, Refrigerator, etc. and still offer that product for a reasonable cost.
    Certain countries have become very proficient at producing certain components, and that's what they concentrate on. That's just the way it is, that doesn't mean the downfall of civilization as we know it. I do however, think it's a shame when domestic companies outsource work to third world countries simply to pad their already mostly obscene profit margins. That is a crime against humanity if you ask me. This type of greed will certainly be the downfall of civilization.
    I think ARF's have their place in this great hobby we all enjoy, as do kits, and scratch built models too. I understand both sides of the arguement, I have built both kits and ARF's, and I enjoy BOTH. There are some very nice ARF's out there, and yes, this includes ones that are produced 'somewhere else'. Just because something is "Made in the USA' doesn't guarantee that it is high quality, and something 'Made in China' doesn't guarantee that it is of poor quality.
    I think the original 'boring' thread that produced this thread was actually meant to bring to light the lack of creativity from the ARF AND Kit producers. There was a comment that was very accurate, that stated 'the companies are going to produce what people buy'. That is only good business sense.

    That's enough of my ranting, happy flying all..............

  22. #47

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    RE: An ARF Nation

    ORIGINAL: weezle

    so the original poster wasn't implying that I shouldn't spend my time and money on an ARF ?

    Aren't americans the reason our country produces so little of its own goods, constantly looking for bottom dollar pricing.

    Now you're catching on too. Nobody is saying that you shouldn't spend your money on an ARF.

    Think about your statement. A country that produces so few of it's own goods has now eliminated a section of the economy (manufacturing).
    Now all ("all" for the sake of argument) jobs that were in the manufacturing sector are eliminated. With the jobs, also goes the taxbase that they once created, both income and property (and once inventory tax...why do you think that one was eliminated?...). That in itself creates a giant sucking hole in the local economy. No income, no tax, both individual and government suffers.


  23. #48

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    RE: An ARF Nation

    I hate long posts, but I'm not done thinking...

    Aren't americans the reason our country produces so little of its own goods, constantly looking for bottom dollar pricing.
    I hate to use your quote twice weezle, but I feel it's important and indicative, of and to, the thread.

    Now, I shop at Wal Mart too. In a town of 10,000 (+/-) a Wal Mart is usually the only thing that survives once it moves in. Why? Look at the quote above!

    In our constant quest to save a dollar, America has cut off it's nose to spite it's face. Go to the local Wal Mart (or anywhere for that matter...I'm not picking on Wal Mart) and go section to section, shelf to shelf.

    I dare you to find two items (besides grocery) side by side that are made in America.

    Where did the jobs go that produced these item less than a generation ago? They were eliminated or outsourced to save a dollar.

    This is great for the corporate bottom line, however...

  24. #49

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    RE: An ARF Nation

    (again, long post are hard to read...sorry)

    ...when Joe Lunchbox lost his job, the company moved to (insert third world country here), and closed the local plant, he lost the ability to afford higher priced goods, created by fellow Americans, supporting their local economy.

    It's a trickle down effect, that's turned into a waterfall over the last few decades.

    Think about this...

    When microwave ovens first came out, how much did they cost? $6, 7, 800 dollars right? But you bought it. You bought it because that was how much they cost, and the plant down the street made them, and you or someone you knew worked there.

    Then, the owner figured out that he could move the plant to Timbuktu, pay the employees a pittance, pay zero benefits, and sell the microwaves for a percentage of the cost while reaping obscene profits.

    Joe Lunchbox can now buy a new microwave for his wife, for $125 dollars. This is fortunate because his job as a night watchman at the closed plant he used to work at only pays a fraction of his old salary.

    And on and on and on.

    ARF, kit... it's about doing for yourself that started the thread. It's morphed into more now, but what doesn't here?

    I think the point is that instant gratification has a price. Our nation is in the depths of paying for it right now. Any single factor is but a microcosm of the bigger picture, which is why an ARF vs kit argument won't work here.

    I'm not done thinking yet, but I'll let someone holler at me for a while.



  25. #50
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    My take is that corporate America owns our government. Here is a corporate America that use to provide its employees with good retirement benefits and medical care. Now with self directed IRAs, mostly dependent on the stock market, corporate America has shunted any responsibility for employees retirement to the stock market which they manipulate with absurd stock swings. Heath care benefits they have traded to the government in exchange for sweetheart tax deals when they move business off shore so they can show more profit and drive their stocks even higher with little behind them in brick and mortar or anything else of substance. We look back and wonder how the present gang of incompetents were ever elected. Didn't the media play an important role in the beatification of these politicians. Ask yourself who owns the media. All of this has had the effect of destroying initiative as our population has been dumbed down to where they will buy just about any line of BS as long as it makes them comfortable for the time being. America, once a nation of builders is now a nation of people seeking maximum pleasure for a minimum of investment and requiring a minimum of commitment. ARF = Accept Ready Failure.


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