"To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will. Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except by the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgment of the traders. Money demands of you the recognition that men must work for their own benefit, not for their own injury, for their gain, not their loss – the recognition that they are not beasts of burden, born to carry the weight of your misery – that you must offer them values, not wounds – that the common bond among men is not the exchange of suffering, but the exchange of goods. Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men's stupidity, but your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest they offer, but the best your money can find. And when men live by trade – with reason, not force, as their final arbiter – it is the best product that wins, the best performance, the man of best judgment and highest ability – and the degree of a man's productiveness is the degree of his reward. This is the code of existence whose tool and symbol is money."

ORIGINAL: ctdahle

I read the ''boring airplane'' thread and became very depressed.

Lots of people lamenting that very few people build, or even have the skill to build anything anymore, and lots of others explaining, accurately, why building is impractical, uneconomical and unnecessary. The tragedy is that both sides are right and it is a phenomenon that permeates American culture. Writer Michael Pollan addressed the same topic in the New York Times today, explaining how the preparation of good food has mutated from something every family did for itself, to something done by corporations and their minimum wage workers, or by superstar chefs on television shows, but not by normal people.

We have number crunched everything that takes effort, patience, practice, knowlege, and skill, turned it into drudgework and delegated it to others.

Now things like building model airplanes, cooking good meals, making heirloom quality furniture, and crocheting baby quilts, along with all of the character building skills, qualities, and values that go with those things have become relics.

I am firmly on the side of the scratch builder, the hand quilter, the home gardener and chef. The fact that we are too bloody lazy to build our own model planes or cook our own scampi is a national disaster. The rise of ARF culture is symptomatic of America's moral decline, and to pass it off with the platitude ''to each his own'' is a cop out, an apathetic acceptance of an American nation in decline, forfeiting its role as a beacon of freedom, a crucible of innovation, and the undisputed leader in technical skill and industrial quality.

An ARF nation is a nation on the ropes, unable to educate it's children, feed itself, manage it's ports, appropriately regulate it's economy, fabricate it's own semi-conductors, provide its own customer service centers or maintain it's own industries. An ARF nation is a dying nation.

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

Now the Moderators are selectively removing posts without even notification as to the act, or to the reason. I guess they just like those %%$^&& ARF's too much.

Bill

ORIGINAL: MetallicaJunkie

I love ARFs, and i like kits, but dont have enough time to build, and on the weekends id rather be flying. I live in deep south texas so the winters here are very mild, and there is no building season like up north........... Im sure my attitude will change if i live long enough to retire

ORIGINAL: Red Scholefield

ARFs, kt build, scratch build. What would you call this ARF rescued from a very high tree with damage to wing and fiberglass fuselage broken in half. I don't know what your skill level is but I would challenge anyone to put this Bird of Time back in the air after it was essentially abandon to the trash. I'll post the finished result later, just wanted to show what was involved.

ORIGINAL: jharkin
Im amazed this hasn't been locked yet...

I think its true that this ARF situation IS just a symptom. But as others have pointed out its also a natural progression of civilization. How many of you built your own house with hand tools?? Or grew your own cotton and wove your clothes? Or built your radio from a kit?

The fact of the matter is that even if that guy wanted to compete on value, he simply cannot. Not when US labr gets paid in an hour what Chinese workers make in a day or more.

ORIGINAL: dirtybird
I fail to see where my having ARF's means the end of my country.

ORIGINAL: weezle
to generalize by saying I am lazy because i build ARF's is crazy

so I guess if you have ever built an ARF or put a T.V. dinner in a microwave, chose to use a weed eater or a lawn mower instead of scissors, opted to drive two blocks instead of walk your lazy and your country is going down hill

ORIGINAL: gboulton

I'm not...and remain more puzzled that anyone thinks it should have been. *shrug*

Well...I HAVE built a 2 story playhouse, and assisted with construction of a large barn, with hand tools. And radios? Whoo boy...I don't think I could COUNT the number of radios I've built from kits, or repaired using parts from another, or whatever. Any of that count?

In all seriousness however...the reminder that most of us don't build other things really doesn't speak to the point...at least, not the point I think is significant here...

Here, however, IS precisely the point...or, at least an illustration of it.

You and others who point out, as an example, that few of us built our own cars have, certainly, a valid point. It would, indeed, be silly to argue that simply because many choose to buy pre-made airplanes that our country is in deep trouble.

However...SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE is making those cars...or that house...or those radios...or your ARF. And that somebody AIN'T US.

You say...quite correctly...that the US maker of an engine will find it quite difficult, if not impossible, to compete on value. I'll agree with the point you're trying to make, but not with the syntax. Here's why:

VALUE is the worth of the item...what it brings to the table. I see NO REASON that a man in Anytown, USA can't compete on that level. Can an American shop build an engine that runs as well, has as much power, lasts as long, starts as easily, weighs the same, and looks as attractive as any other engine in the world? Absolutely. That's value.

What I believe you meant, however (and by all means, please correct me if I'm wrong), was that he'll be unable to offer that engine at the same PRICE, due to the costs of US labor and materials. With that, i absolutely agree...and that is PRECISELY the problem.

WHY is my effort to turn a crankshaft worth more than the effort of any other individual elsewhere? Presuming we turn the same quality crankshaft, it's not. So why should I be paid more to do it? Well...there can really be only one of two reasons:

1) I'm unreasonable. I'm demanding more for my time and effort than is reasonable. You've chosen to pay that salary, and have thus made a poor decision. When you make poor decisions in business, your business ought to fail.

2) I'm rare. It's difficult to find anyone in our country with the skill I have, thus I'm a valuable commodity who can charge more than a similar laborer elsewhere.

So...wait...what we're saying here is that it's become increasingly unusual to find someone who can PRODUCE something...so much so that the only way a manufacturer here can do so is to pay UNREASONABLE rates for his labor, and then BULLY potential customers into buying his product simply because he did so??

Gee...sound familiar?

=====================
I fail to see it to...as several of us have pointed out...repeatedly. Not one person in this thread has made the assertion you're rejecting.

Sneezing doesn't give you hay fever. Hay fever does, however, cause you to sneeze.

Buying ARFs doesn't mean the end of your country...a country that's dying, however, will see an explosion of popularity in such things as ARFs.

Have you made decisions to prioritize other things above workshop time? Of course you have. You seem to prefer supporting your family, and spending time being a parent to your children, over building airplanes. I know, how dare you, right?

Admittedly...you COULD have chosen to have fewer airplanes than you do, and limited yourself to those you could build in the limited time you've made available for such activities.

But...er...Who's called you lazy?

Who's generalizing now?

gboulton Date 8/7/2009 9:26 AM

Buying ARFs doesn't mean the end of your country...a country that's dying, however, will see an explosion of popularity in such things as ARFs.

ORIGINAL: weezle


on the flipside i am going to start a thread called: If always build from a kit or plans and look down on those who don't you have to much time on your hands. do you think it will hit 1000 posts

At what point is a thread closed because the participants are adding no more value?

but when some stranger feels like they have the right to tell me how to spend my time and money its upsetting to say the least.

on the flipside i am going to start a thread called: If always build from a kit or plans and look down on those who don't you have to much time on your hands. do you think it will hit 1000 posts

If you look at this in a broader sense than just our minute sector of the economy, the above quote does hit home. Our parents (and for the older set, your ) generation, did for themselves, with money accumulated in a local economy, earned by creating consumable goods to be purchased by others. Our national economy has a huge section of this cycle missing, since the goods we consume aren't made here.

ORIGINAL: weezle

so the original poster wasn't implying that I shouldn't spend my time and money on an ARF ?

Aren't americans the reason our country produces so little of its own goods, constantly looking for bottom dollar pricing.

Aren't americans the reason our country produces so little of its own goods, constantly looking for bottom dollar pricing.