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  1. #51

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    RE: An ARF Nation

    reincarnate, I read your 'long post', and i'm certainly not going to hollar at you. You brought up some very interesting points. But, I would like to make a couple more comments, if that's ok?
    It is true, Americans (and probably everyone in all of the other nations around the world) are certainly demanding lower prices. It's a 2 edge sword. Companies are outsourcing to pad their bottom line, which in turn, lowers/eliminates US wages, which in turn, forces those same people with less disposable income to seek out lower prices. The cycle continues.
    I feel, however, that the actual root cause isn't that people are demanding lower prices, but more the fault of the greed mentality nowadays.
    This nation has become a nation of 'Profit at any cost' corporate mentality. Companies and the government have put profits above all other concerns. How many times have we heard on news reports that additional safety practices, higher mileage standards, etc. can't be implemented, because it would 'Hurt Profits'? Where's the concern for the general public and environment? I think that is what's lacking more than anything else.
    Just my opinion....................

  2. #52
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    The Bottom Line:

    GREED!

  3. #53
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    ORIGINAL: Red Scholefield

    My take is that corporate America owns our government. Here is a corporate America that use to provide its employees with good retirement benefits and medical care. Now with self directed IRAs, mostly dependent on the stock market, corporate America has shunted any responsibility for employees retirement to the stock market which they manipulate with absurd stock swings.
    Okay, I'll play now because I am tired of reading some of this absurd drivel...

    You want to know what has absolutely killed this country? UNIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Red wants back his higher pay, high retirement benefits and medical/medicare. I say BS!!! What do you think drove GM into the crapper?! They were paying 100% of workers wages to retire..."FOR LIFE". What makes you greedy Bast*rds feel you deserve a free lunch!?!?!?

    Unions have driven our counrty into the toilet! We want more money...LETS STRIKE!!! We want more retirement...LETS STRIKE!! I want to sit home and get paid to build airplane kits...LETS STRIKE!!!!

    If you are going to waste my RC hobby forum time talking politics, at least get it straight and call a spade a spade... GREEDY AMERICAN WORKERS HAVE CAUSED THE COUNTRY'S SITUATION YOU SEE TODAY!!!

    Now, my statements have been simplified for sake of discussion. Yes, corporates have tried (and succeeded) to maintain a profit margin they deem acceptable. That is why you start a business in the first place; to make money!!! That said, every time a Union worker goes on strike and demands more money, companies increase their per product price to maintain the same profit margin. So, greedy union workers get more money BUT they also pay more for their goods because their strike costs were rolled up into the equation. What is worst than that, those same greedy union pukes in order to pinch a dime and increase their spending capacity (finally realizing they only screwed themselves by going on strike in the first place), are the ones pulling into the Wal-Mart parking lots and further securing the demise of the good ol' USA!!!

    When I say Union Workers, I am including the entire Union...Shop Stewards, Presidents, Committee Folks, actuall workers....all of you!! The only necessary union was the meat packers union at the turn of the century. The working enviroments were horrid!!

    Unions have outlived their usefulness. Currently, they are destroying what is left of our fragile economy. I hope Obama does to the unions what Regan did to the air traffic controllers when they went on strike..."YOU'RE FIRED!!!!"

    Now, back to ARF's versus kits...You never mentioned RTF's! I would still not agree with you BUT at least you would have made a tad more sense comparing kits to RTF's!! I spend a lot of time building ARF's to make it my own and to make sure it flyies correctly without the need to fix my sins by using electrical trim in flight. There is still some talent necessary to build an ARF. With an RTF I grab the charger and hit the flying field.

    I still maintain that this sport has catered to the following people:

    1) People that have talent enough to build from scratch. Hobby shops have wood.
    2) People that have talent enough to build from plans. Hobby shops have wood.
    3) People that have talent enough to build from kits. Hobby shops have accessories.
    4) People that have talent enough to build from ARF's. Hobby shops have accessories.
    5) People that have talent enough to transport their plane and themselves to the flying field. Hobby shops have RTF's.

    Bottom line, hobby shops have a wide variety of products to cater to all people's desires and pocket books so we can ALL enjoy this hobby. Roll your own and enjoy the hobby, any way you so choose...You know, there was a time when this hobby almost died! Now, with the explosion of ARF's and RTF's, many, many young ones are catching the fever, and I love that fact!!!

    God, I hate it when I stoop so low as to talk politics in a non-political arena...

    Later....[8D]
    Have Great Day!
    Smacka

  4. #54

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    RE: An ARF Nation

    Hello Everyone,

    Well, heck. I spent an hour trying to reply thoughtfully to everyone who has taken the time to respond to my original post. But when I tried to post, I got a session timeout message, not something I've seen before. I'm sorry, because I really do appreciate everyone's thoughts and I tried to respond to everyone, but I don't have time today to try to recreate it.

    So let me try to summarize:

    First, thank you all for keeping the discussion (mostly) civil. Second, if anyone took my comments as a personal affront, I apologise. In no way did I intend to criticise anyone's RATIONAL economic decision to purchase an ARF rather than build a model from a kit, plans, or scratch. I urge everyone to fly, fly a lot, and enjoy the heck out of whatever you choose to fly.

    My concern is not that we are buying these models, but rather with the fact that because buying an ARF, or a factory built ham radio, or canned spaghetti sauce is a vastly superior ECONOMIC choice, we are losing the depth of skill, creativity, and the core of technical knowledge and problem solving ability that made us the greatest nation in the world.

    For just one example, because it makes no sense to build model airplanes from scratch, the intuitive understanding of shear, compressive, and tensile forces on structures like bridges and skyscrapers is never developed. Thus we not only build deficient bridges, we collectively lack the ability to understand what engineers are telling us about the danger that they might collapse. American bridges should NEVER drop freeway traffic into the river. American construction cranes should NEVER collapse, but because we collectively lack the understanding of the technology that goes into our toys, we can't scale up to understand how that same technology applies to the larger things in our lives.

    Next time you have to sit in traffic for five cycles of a stop light, think about how the signals might have been timed differently if the city council that reviewed the signal timing plan included a member who had build an automated model railroad, or had written computer programs for fun.

    The skills we need to remain a competitive nation are the skills learned from sewing dresses, building model railroads, constructing forts, growing gardens, tying flies... When those activities become uneconomical to pursue, we lose the vehicles for developing the skills that they teach.

    We cannot leave technical skills and creativity to the readers of Make, the Steampunks, or to the dwindling population of crusty old craftsmen that still scratch build model planes. If it is no longer economically feasible to engage in technically creative hobbies, we better be coming up with some other way to teach these skills. Our competitive future as a nation depends on it.
    When I get a little money I buy model airplanes and if there is any left over, I buy food.

  5. #55

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    RE: An ARF Nation

    Smaka, you should do more to inform yourself of unions than watch TV and listen to Rush. A sad, uninformed post indeed.

  6. #56
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    ORIGINAL: ctdahle

    We cannot leave technical skills and creativity to the readers of Make, the Steampunks, or to the dwindling population of crusty old craftsmen that still scratch build model planes. If it is no longer economically feasible to engage in technically creative hobbies, we better be coming up with some other way to teach these skills. Our competitive future as a nation depends on it.
    ...and here is where we (you and I) continue to disagree. Your position is the same thing as stating "NEVER" and "ALWAYS". Your debate is rot with conjecture and suppositions. I have an Engineering discipline in Areospace, Electronics and Powder Metallurgy. I can, and do, run circles in any technical arena. I have extensive experience in highly technical and critcal thinking. I teach critcal thinking courses when asked to do so. I see extremely able students graduate each and every year from Penn State University that can and do understand triangular structures such as bridges and cranes, etc...

    This country is not suffering from lack of capability. It is suffering from not enough room for the talent we do have. Where I live, we have engineers working at Wal-Mart as fricking greeters. I see it day in and day out. And why? One reason is that some people who should retire are staying at the job longer because of economic fears. Gee, what will happen when I retire? How will I survive? And why? Because these idiots felt that Corporate America owed them a guaranteed salary for life!!! And why? Because they paid their so called dues and deserve the lap of luxury as compensation until they die.

    This evil mindset does not allow companies to have the money to invest in new workers; fresh set of eyes with which to help us continue to be "World Class" producers and to remain on the technical cutting edge. Instead, greedy American workers are keeping the new talent asking "Would you like fries with that, Sir?", while companies struggle to cope with how to continue to pay full salaries and benefits to jackarses that retired 10-years ago and contribute absolutely nothing toward the USA margetability or the gross national product.

    Sorry (not really, but it sounds good), your "broad brushed" posts just do not cut it. You need to bring more to the game than what you have, thus far.

    Later [8D]
    Have Great Day!
    Smacka

  7. #57
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    RE: An ARF Nation


    ORIGINAL: reincarnate

    Smaka, you should do more to inform yourself of unions than watch TV and listen to Rush. A sad, uninformed post indeed.

    Extremely well thought out and presented. You are a living icon...
    Have Great Day!
    Smacka

  8. #58
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    ORIGINAL: Smacka

    Red wants back his higher pay, high retirement benefits and medical/medicare. I say BS!!!
    While companies struggle to cope with how to continue to pay full salaries and benefits to jackarses that retired 10-years ago and contribute absolutely nothing toward the USA margetability or the gross national product.
    Red only expected what he was promised for 40 years working for the same company. I retired 15 years ago and got it. I never belonged to a union. I was in an exempt salary position which was not negotiated by a union. You negotiated with the company, if you didn't feel you were getting what you were worth you could find a new job. During that period my company was making great profits and paying great benefits and dominated every market it was in and growing at 10% /year. It was THE company to work for. I just feel sorry for the working stiff today that is screwed out of his pension and any medical benefits that he was promised for dedicated service with the company.

    This retired jackass had 5 patents signed over to the company that they are still making a significant profit on. For each of which he received one share of company stock - now at $11.50/share.


  9. #59
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    I think I'm glad I got my posts in when I did.
    ¡ǝʌısuǝdxǝ sı dn puɐ dn sı uʍop \'\'\'\'pǝʇɹǝʌuı puɐ ʍo1 uǝɥʍ

  10. #60
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    ORIGINAL: gboulton

    I think I'm glad I got my posts in when I did.
    Funny...remember, I tried to respond with a little humor, rather that allow myself to be dragged into this politcal quagmire. Someone, or several someones, cried to the Moderators that references to "pot" was hurting people's feelings...so my posts were removed.

    You guys got what you asked for...a politcal debate.

    That said, I have shared my thoughts on topic and do not believe that constant/continuous repeats of my position will have any positive reflection on this thread. In the spirit of what this site is and of, I will refrain from further comment on topic and get back to enjoying posts related to RC stuff.

    You are all welcome to join me in any RC discussion. As for politics, I am politely/respectfully backing out...

    Thanks,
    Have Great Day!
    Smacka

  11. #61
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    ORIGINAL: Red Scholefield

    ORIGINAL: Smacka

    Red wants back his higher pay, high retirement benefits and medical/medicare. I say BS!!!
    While companies struggle to cope with how to continue to pay full salaries and benefits to jackarses that retired 10-years ago and contribute absolutely nothing toward the USA margetability or the gross national product.
    Red only expected what he was promised for 40 years working for the same company. I retired 15 years ago and got it. I never belonged to a union. I was in an exempt salary position which was not negotiated by a union. You negotiated with the company, if you didn't feel you were getting what you were worth you could find a new job. During that period my company was making great profits and paying great benefits and dominated every market it was in and growing at 10% /year. It was THE company to work for. I just feel sorry for the working stiff today that is screwed out of his pension and any medical benefits that he was promised for dedicated service with the company.

    This retired jackass had 5 patents signed over to the company that they are still making a significant profit on. For each of which he received one share of company stock - now at $11.50/share.

    Give me a break, Red!
    You copied excerpts from two different post of mine, putting YOUR spin on it as though I was personally attacking you. Pretty childish, eh?

    For the record, I have no idea whether you are/were a union worker. Those portions of my posts were not directed at you. I used your direct words to point out a flawed mindset...workers want higher pay, guaranteed retirement (full salary for life) and medical insurance. Additionally, I would have no way of knowing you were retired. Who are you? I do not know you from adam ant.

    If you are going to quote me, keep it in the context of which it was written...
    Have Great Day!
    Smacka

  12. #62
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    ORIGINAL: Smacka
    Funny...remember, I tried to respond with a little humor,
    No, I don't, but I'll take your word for it.

    rather that allow myself to be dragged into this politcal quagmire.
    If you didn't wish to be involved in the discussion, then why are you?

    Someone, or several someones, cried to the Moderators that references to ''pot'' was hurting people's feelings...so my posts were removed.
    Interesting...here's a reference to 'pot" that hasn't been removed.

    Perhaps they were removed because you asserted that others in the thread used the substance, and were thus unable to speak rationally, or unworthy of comment or consideration? That would have been a personal attack...something pretty expressly forbidden.

    You guys got what you asked for...a politcal debate.
    Presuming that's the case...er...so?

    That said, I have shared my thoughts on topic and do not believe that constant/continuous repeats of my position will have any positive reflection on this thread. In the spirit of what this site is and of, I will refrain from further comment on topic and get back to enjoying posts related to RC stuff.

    You are all welcome to join me in any RC discussion. As for politics, I am politely/respectfully backing out...
    And yet, you returned to this thread immediately, to continue restating your position? I'm so very confused now.

    ===========

    Seems to me the topic was, and still is, "related to RC stuff". Note, please...the OP's point...a point he has now clarified...the same point those who speak in his support have stated...remains "RC Related".

    The skills we learn, develop, and use to produce our own RC aircraft are in short supply in this nation. Any nation that has lost the willingness or ability to learn and use such skills is in danger.

    Those who support that thesis are passionate about it...and frankly scared, and more than a little ticked off. It disturbs us a great deal to recognize what we believe to be an increasingly serious failing of our nation and our culture, and in particular the unwillingness of so many to rectify it.

    We seek, then, to explain WHY such skills are so necessary...through explaining the nature of the danger the loss of them represents.

    Indeed, Smacka, the person in this thread who's strayed farthest from "RC Related" discussion is you. Beyond your insistence that you fly ARFs because you want to (certainly a perfectly valid reason to do so) the remainder of your posts have, among other things, labeled those concerned with this issue as drug users, criticized moderators for not allowing you to make such inflammatory accusations, bemoaned the repetition of points of which YOU are most guilty, and threatened to leave the thread only to return moments later.

    If you feel the loss of a native desire and ability to create, represented by the growing popularity of ARFs, presents no cause for concern, then by all means, present your reasons.

    If, instead, you're merely concerned with how the moderators treat you, and pointing out how ridiculous you think the rest of us to be...well, you've done so, and you are cordially invited to make good on your plan to spend time in other threads.
    ¡ǝʌısuǝdxǝ sı dn puɐ dn sı uʍop \'\'\'\'pǝʇɹǝʌuı puɐ ʍo1 uǝɥʍ

  13. #63
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    Somethings just aren't worth commenting on once a thread has taken the direction this one has..


  14. #64

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    RE: An ARF Nation


    ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

    Now the Moderators are selectively removing posts without even notification as to the act, or to the reason. I guess they just like those %%$^&& ARF's too much.

    Bill

    No .. it's just that you post so much crap that has to be deleted they gave up telling you why eons ago !!! ..... besides that , you are too abrasive and stick your Nose places that it shouldn't be .. as i have said before , you are lucky to still have an account on R.C.U.

    i build (over 30 years) i also fly a few ARFS ... i find that sometimes an ARF saves me enough time to have A LIFE , and still FLY and WORK ..

    we cant all be retired , and i think that Just because many Folk's buy ARF's these days , it says NOTHING about the state of our Nation , and to imply that it does shows that your thought process is flawed .

    i challenge you to look at our military Folk's 30 years ago and look at them today , if you don't think this Nation as a whole has improved in intelligence and drive you are VERY mistaken .

    then again some people are so old and unable to accept change for whatever reason they just stick their inflated head in the sand like an Ostrich and cry out from the one end remaining " IT'S ALL GOING TO HELL IN A HANDBASKET"

    Just my 1 1/2 cents and Stick DO NOT pm me , i don't care .

    Be it an ARF , an RTF , or a Kit that took 2000 hours to complete , if you don\'\'t FLY it , what Good is it ?

  15. #65
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    CHANGE

    Military folks 30 years ago how about 60 You are posting with them How would you forsee CHANGE.
    Larry K
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  16. #66
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    Dan,

    Hopefully i don't warrant the same vitriol as Bill.

    ORIGINAL: DanMacMurray
    we cant all be retired , and i think that Just because many Folk's buy ARF's these days , it says NOTHING about the state of our Nation , and to imply that it does shows that your thought process is flawed .
    I've outlined my own thought process pretty clearly earlier in this thread, I think.

    Why do you think it is flawed?

    This isn't a "challenge'...it's a genuine request for your insight. Clearly you've been doing RC...and been alive..longer than I have. I'd genuinely like to know why you think I'm wrong here.

    ¡ǝʌısuǝdxǝ sı dn puɐ dn sı uʍop \'\'\'\'pǝʇɹǝʌuı puɐ ʍo1 uǝɥʍ

  17. #67

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    RE: An ARF Nation


    ORIGINAL: gboulton

    Dan,

    Hopefully i don't warrant the same vitriol as Bill.



    ORIGINAL: DanMacMurray
    we cant all be retired , and i think that Just because many Folk's buy ARF's these days , it says NOTHING about the state of our Nation , and to imply that it does shows that your thought process is flawed .
    I've outlined my own thought process pretty clearly earlier in this thread, I think.

    Why do you think it is flawed?

    This isn't a ''challenge'...it's a genuine request for your insight. Clearly you've been doing RC...and been alive..longer than I have. I'd genuinely like to know why you think I'm wrong here.

    "Hopefully i don't warrant the same vitriol as Bill. "

    Clearly you have enough intelligence to know that by coming across as an angry old man set in his ways , you would do nothing to further your own statements and opinions in the eyes of others here , i commend you for that .

    "Clearly you've been doing RC...and been alive..longer than I have."

    Nice try , the fish aren't biting ... what does Age or Modeling experience have to do with this ??? ..... is this a standard baiting technique of yours ? Does it work ?

    I agree with some of what you say , much of it i don't ..... i think that things are evolving in many different ways in our Nation (some good some bad) and i don't think that any one of us can see the issues so clearly as to presume to know that we are doomed as a nation or "Dying" , Period .

    i know in my heart that our intelligence and drive have not been stricken in the way that some on this thread and others would have "US" believe , my experiences with people have led me to believe otherwise , and in this thought i stand firm .

    I also know better to engage in an argument with someone who will simply throw flowery , ornate , and very LONG prose at a disagreement until the original issue is muddied so badly that no one , not even the OP , much less the respondents directly involved , can see the forest for the trees , fire trucks , and burnt stumps .

    Hope you understand .

    Best wishes and a healthy respect .

    Dan






    Be it an ARF , an RTF , or a Kit that took 2000 hours to complete , if you don\'\'t FLY it , what Good is it ?

  18. #68
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    RE: An ARF Nation


    ORIGINAL: DanMacMurray


    No .. it's just that you post so much crap that has to be deleted they gave up telling you why eons ago !!! ..... besides that , you are too abrasive and stick your Nose places that it shouldn't be .. as i have said before , you are lucky to still have an account on R.C.U.


    Just my 1 1/2 cents and Stick DO NOT pm me , i don't care .

    Mr. MacMurray,

    Obviously, you find my posts interesting enough that you do at least read them. If you don't want to read what I post, then by all means don't.

    Please don't flatter yourself to think that I'd bother sending you a PM, or any other form of message.

    Those who can build, the rest, like you, fly what someone else has built for them.

    Have a nice day, if you can find one. I'd say that you are being the crochety old man here.

    Bill, Waco Brother #1
    Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

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    RE: An ARF Nation



    There are other hobbies that we see this ARF way of life occurring too. For instance, amateur radio has become an appliance hobby with easy test to pass and then it is just a matter of how much money you have to invest. No one builds there own equipment anymore and the old timers that took pride in building something and making it work is fast becoming history. The hobby has lost 50,000 hams in the last 6 months. The ARF of cell phones and computers is here to stay. The art of building something and see it fly or building a transmitter and sending RF into the atmoshere has become old fashion. The software geek rules now and I sometimes wonder if wehaven't created a void inour lives ?That art of creating something with our own hands ? Hmm -I wonder.


  20. #70
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    Ok guys, it's time to ratchet it down a peg. Discussing the issues of this thread does not include attacking each other. Let's keep the personal slams, insults, jabs, snide comments, or attacks out of the thread and let's discuss the issue presented here. For those that can't find a way to heed my advice will find themselves being dealt with on an individual basis, as we're not going to close down the thread simply because a few members think that's what they can do if they start a fight. So let's keep it civil in here please.

    Thanks for your cooperation.

    Ken
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  21. #71

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    RE: An ARF Nation

    I think our country has been polarized to the extreme. Everybody is an extemist, everybody has THE only way of doing things right. Everybody else is wrong. Peolle demonize people becuse they do not gree with their ideas. We are a dying nation because ARFs are the dominating factor in this hobby? Well, I think some builders are a dying breed, and to a minute to soon. Ignorance and intolerance is manifested everywhere (Rcuniverse is not exempt) in this country, it is an ambarrasment, sad to say. I own my business, no I am not a union person, but to deny what unions have done to help workers in this country in the past would be silly (like dome misminformed soul posted earlier).
    There was a time when our good old USA (old is of course a misnomer) was a melting pot. Well, it is not melting anymore...

    Funny thread, I admit.

    Gerry

  22. #72

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    RE: An ARF Nation


    ORIGINAL: kcdog



    There are other hobbies that we see this ARF way of life occurring too.* For instance, amateur radio has become an appliance hobby with easy test to pass and then it is just a matter of how much money you have to invest. No one builds there own equipment anymore and the old timers that took pride in building something and making it work is fast becoming history. The hobby has lost 50,000 hams in the last 6 months. The ARF of cell phones and computers is here to stay. The art of building something and see it fly or building a transmitter and sending RF into the atmoshere has become old fashion. The software geek rules now and I sometimes wonder if we*haven't created a void in*our lives ?**That art of creating something with our own hands ?* Hmm -*I wonder.** *

    You are right, hams are being lost, and it is a real shame. Hams can communicate when others can NOT. Remember 9/11, remember New Orleans? What was the first thing gone? Exactly: Cellular communications.
    A high price was paid for being "incommunicated", specially the police and the emergency response people. I am afraid (I hope I am wrong) that that loss fill be felt in the future...

    Gerry

  23. #73

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    RE: An ARF Nation


    ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder


    ORIGINAL: DanMacMurray


    No .. it's just that you post so much crap that has to be deleted they gave up telling you why eons ago !!! ..... besides that , you are too abrasive and stick your Nose places that it shouldn't be .. as i have said before , you are lucky to still have an account on R.C.U.


    Just my 1 1/2 cents and Stick DO NOT pm me , i don't care .

    Mr. MacMurray,

    Obviously, you find my posts interesting enough that you do at least read them. If you don't want to read what I post, then by all means don't.

    Please don't flatter yourself to think that I'd bother sending you a PM, or any other form of message.

    Those who can build, the rest, like you, fly what someone else has built for them.


    Bill, Waco Brother #1
    # 1 I don't find your post's interesting , i find them irritating , many of your posts simply say the same thing over and over " ARF's suck , and if you have one you , you suck"

    # 2 The last time i replied to a similar arf thread a few weeks ago you private messaged me at least 4 times after i asked you not to , i was simply asking you not to PM me , but i will just block you instead .

    # 3 it's funny to me that you didn't even read the entire paragraph that you quoted , in the very next sentence i say "i have built for 30 years and own a few arfs too"..... you ignored that statement ... and then you try to insult me by saying , quote "Those who can build,the rest,like you fly what someone else has built for them." quote.
    Be it an ARF , an RTF , or a Kit that took 2000 hours to complete , if you don\'\'t FLY it , what Good is it ?

  24. #74
    Stickbuilder's Avatar
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    Mr. MacMurray,

    I doubt if you will see this after your blocking statement, but I'm not impressed with your 30 Year record. Obviously, you didn't become very good at the hobby, if after 30 years, you have reverted to flying ARF's.

    Gee, 30 whole years.......

    That means that when you started, I was where you are right now.

    Again, have a nice day if you can find one.

    Bill, Waco Brother #1
    Its easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesnt look like an airplane.

  25. #75
    Live Wire's Avatar
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    RE: An ARF Nation

    Well it was Fun
    Larry K
    Sig Brotherhood # 1 Sig Kadet Brotherhood # 4 WACO Brotherhood #34 Cub Brotherhood 14


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