gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

Fair enough. While I disagree with your assessment of Bill, this certainly isn't the place to discuss that...nor would doing so really be necessary.

Wasn't baiting at all, though I suppose I can see why it came across that way.

Perhaps I'm "unusual" in that I genuinely value the experience and wisdom that comes with age...either in terms of years on this planet, or in terms of years of experience doing something.

You do, from your statements (30 years, i believe you said, in this hobby) have considerably more experience in this hobby than I. Further, I'm making the presumption (though certainly, I could be wrong) that, with 30 years in this hobby, you've been alive longer than I was well.

So it's a genuine acknowledgment that you have wisdom and experience I don't...in the world, and in this hobby. I find the older I get, the smarter my father was...and I suspect that to be true of others from generations before mine.

While you certainly haven't said as much, I get the impression from some of your statements...and the way that you phrase them...that you have a deep and abiding love of this country. I might even go so far to guess that you've served it at some point.

I feel the same about myself. That's why I'm bothered by this. I feel this country is...or at least was...the embodiment of certain ideals I hold very near and dear. I don't think it's at all unreasonable then to assert that...if those ideals are no longer held...the nation is "dying". At the very least, the nation i want it to be, and believe it was meant to be, is.

Can you explain why you believe this?

Do we simply meet radically different types of people in our daily lives? (Certainly possible, I admit) Or am i wrong in my interpretation of the people I deal with?

I don't, but clearly the decision is yours.

To you as well.

============

I agree...and I think the point is applicable here. HAM Radio is "one more thing"...just another example of the sort of tinkering, experimenting, producing, doing for ourselves learning that is eroding.

Again, I agree. I feel that's become so true that even a genuine acknowledgment of another's potentially superior wisdom and insight is presumed to be "baiting".

No.

ARFs are the dominating factor in this hobby because we're a dying nation.

I believe that to be a fairly gross generalization. I believe intolerance has been fairly represented by both builders and non-builders in this thread.

With this I'd have to agree. I'm no fan of unions, by any stretch...indeed, I genuinely dislike and distrust them. I can not help but acknowledge, however, the impact they had in the past securing some very basic rights for employees.

RogerParrett

Interesting posts... Most of 'em...lol

Anyway, how about if we adults (and I don't mean to be funny), take some time to mentor kids and show them what RC can really offer? Sure, grab their attention with an ARF, but show them the advantages of building, radio fundamentals, etc. I've found that given the opportunity, they will put down their iPod, iPhone, etc if presented something challenging. We did, remember?

We have the passion, now how about sharing it!

Can we put our money where our mouths are? Or are we "too busy" as well?

It might help reverse the course many people believe we are on.

Safe landings... Roger Parrett

capt1597

i assembled a heath kit rc radio system in the 60's but now i use a manufactured one. i built alot of kits in the 50's thru 70's and now i fly manufactured ones. built a sailboat once but now all my boats have been manufactured in plants full of skilled workers. i used to drive steel ships a 1000 feet long ( i did not build them) and when the broke down i called the engineers to git them fixed. the manufacturing companys in the USA that i invested in so many years ago are still sending me checks. i found that my skills are in operating things. i also have learned that for me, i get to do alot more operating of the toys if i use others to build and or repair. i do alot of maintenance on alot of my toys but i i farm out as much as posible because it is running of the toys that i like best. i love to build things but i like to operate things so very much more. happy flying , capt

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

An excellent point, imo, Roger...and you've probably done all of us a service by bringing it up.

My own kids have both built a balsa/tissue paper glider and rubber powered aircraft. The older one also has .6 hrs of scale time (Her logbook is priceless to her...it makes me so proud). She's not, however, as interested in RC as i'd hoped she'd be...but hey, gotta support em whatever they do, right?

The youngest (9) will quite likely solo this season, flying a .25 sized kit built trainer donated by a neighbor.

My own "bragging" aside, however, I think you've made a tremendous point. You're absolutely right...given the right opportunity, they'll put down the iPod and Wii remote. And that IS, indeed, the path away from what some of us feel is a dangerous path.

capt1597

i sailed my 1966 sailboat into monomenee, mi. two weeks ago. it was a friday about 3 pm. i walked over three blocks and up one and located balsa USA, meet dave the designer loked around the plant and feel in love with they'r neuport 11. dave drove me and my new kit back to the harbor when he asked to see my boat. we both admired each other's deciplenes not chastised them. happy flying, capt

YogoBlue

My Feedback: (17)

This seems pretty straight forward to me. As back ground I have been in this hobby for at least 15 yrs. Ill try to keep this short.

I will try to back track.. first and foremost, I feel sorry for those that dont build. Some of our members are well off folks.. Doctors etc. I can see why they fly ARFs.. no time, and the salary time vs build time makes it a simple decision. Why do I feel sorry for those? hmmm. well they cant or wont have the satisfaction of bringing their BUSA Sopwith and flying it at the field. So I understand the jist of the original post. This is something they will NEVER know until or unless they decide to delve into building. It certainly is not cheaper and in most cases goes scale so much that it is more expensive than arfs by a long shot.

How in the heck the economy got dragged into this I dont know. I do know that salaries are at a high in this nation, so it makes fiscal sense for some to buy arfs mitigating time to get out to the field. I do it myslef, but I also build. The last thing I want to do is build a 100cc Yak and 3d it. .. to me if youre gonna build.. may as well go scale.

ARFs attracted those that either cannot or dont want to build. So in that vein it maybe did good for the hobby? The quality surely suffers and that is something that ARF flyers cant deny.

I can see both sides of this story at 40yrs old. Its like everything else, hot rods, HAM ( that was brought up) and the list goes on and on. It reflective of society to stroll into any auto supply store and they dont have EVERY single part for a chevy 350 or a ford 302? Its the same mentality .. not many work on their own cars anymore either. Society evolved (and I used that term loosely) to pay professionals MORE for their work so it makes no sense for them to branch out and learn other skills. If you make 50 bucks an hour banging out code.. what use do you have learning to build airplanes? Its also a much more competitive work environment, so some CANNOT dedicate the time to not further themselves in their line of work. Us older dudes know.. its called FUN. But for some this is not any longer. Try to find skilled trades anymore, ask yourself how many people do you know want to be a plumber, electrician, window glazer, brick layer etc? The scary part of this is I make my living in technology. I build, but I also buy arfs too.

I love the art of the build, but I also love slamming together an arf in 10 hours and ripping it up. I remember when there wasnt arfs.. you had no choice so some of us were forced to learn to build. Younger folks these days get a choice and thats ok too.

I just want to interject personal opinion, if you have never built a kit.. go out and do it. Even if it takes you 3 years the point of this post was and still is you are missing a great part of the hobby that will bring you something you no longer are paid for.. PERSONAL SATISFACTION. Its better than any pay, and something NO one can take away from you. Arts are dissapearing these guys are right, if there is anything you can do to perpetuate this hobby.. go out and do it, but start it at home first. Shut off the phone, get off the internet and TV, radio, etc you will find much more time. It can be done!

When you do decide to try out even a small build project post it here, we are all willing to see the fruits of your labors and we are just as excited as you are! If you cannot right now, well maybe later in life, lets just hope its not too late to learn a thing or two from the senior members.. they have a lot to give!!!

YogoBlue

My Feedback: (17)

Come on now. I am from MN where we had a build season, I am now in Kingsville, tejas and I can say the build season should be now. 100 degrees for 30 plus days straight? We dont have a build season? Its called Summer in South Tejas baby!!

If you ever come "north" bring a plane and let us know!

dorkywhiteguy

My Feedback: (30)

I like helicopters.

ZebraOne

My Feedback: (8)

Horace

I used to build every thing....In the 'old' days, BOM, was the rule! Now it's the exception. I doubt if any of the 'hot shots' could even begin to assemble a Gullows kit
My problem is when retiring, thing got downsized and so did my home. At 80, I don't feel i have time to start on that Waco YMF i have been hoarding[]
ARF's are the way to go for me, now!
But I still abmire the guys have the room and time to do it.
I really thirsted for the kit that that guy who was selling that old Platt kit of the Bucker Jungmeister!
And I still miss RCM and Don Dewey and his rants. LOL
Jeeze, time flys too
Zee
AMA129570

ZebraOne

My Feedback: (8)

Ah, KCDOG...
Where have the amatures(sp) gone?
The same place kit builders have gone[&o]
M zorger
AMA129570
KE6OKM

Damn cell phones!
Z

weezle

I am a union worker, and I don't see how unions are the problem. the union and the company both agree to a contract, so if you think unions are the problem then the company is at fault too.

is the problem that americans are over paid or factory workers from other countries under paid, probably a little of both. I don't see why tempers have to flare so much, fighting over the internet is kinda dumb[:-].

there is a really good documentary called Walmart the high cost of low prices. It really stirred my emotions, first i was really angry with myself, my friends and family, co-workers, just for shopping at wal-mart. then I came to my senses, who am i to tell people how to spend their money, i am fortunate that I have a great paying job with health benefits ( thanks to my union). others are not so fortunate.

the fact of the matter is all the out sourcing that is done by american companies is never going to stop until foreign workers wages catch u to ours or american workers take a pay cut.

Smacka

Companies do not go on strike for higher wages, more medical and higher retirement pay...unions do. Like you pointed out, they have a contract. Rather than abide by the contract, unions strike for more. It is a slippery slope that has caused the decline of America being able to remain competitive in a Global Economy. Are unions the only problem, heck no, however, they have had, and continue to have, the biggest impact on our economy for the past 20-30 years. There is no denying that GM Management royally screwed up by letting their union become so strong. GM wasted dollars after dollars, the biggest money hole being that of paying union workers their entire salaries/paychecks to STAY HOME. So yes, Management shares in the blame, no doubt! But the heart of it is greedy unions that have no more place in American culture. In the early 1900's, when immigrants were forced to work under horrific conditions in the meat packing plants, the union was God sent, and very necessary...for health reasons for the general public and to help workers under dire conditions. This is just not the case anymore. Management Teams can (and do!!) successfully bargin with employees WITHOUT the need for Union intervention, and without the need to drive up the cost of American products to the point that they are no longer able to compete with a Global Economy. Products in the Good Ol' US of A are just too damned expensive for the wages I currently earn. If I were a Doctor making 300-600 thousand a year, I would buy more American products. But that still would not "fix" what is broke...greedy workers!!

I Agree that factory workers in other countries are underpaid, no doubt. The reasons for this are so diverse that there is not enough room on this site to discuss them all. Suffice to say that underpaid factory workers from other countries will not change in my life time, so what is the answer? One answer that would help is to have American workers accept lower paying jobs and do the best job they can! I have actually heard a worker state, "Well, if they are only paying me $XX.XX...I am going to work at an $XX.XX pace. How sad is that?!?! When the sun sets, the only thing a man is left with is his own intergrity. Why would someone demean themselves in that manner?? I fired that worker on the spot and hired another who was talented enough to hit the ground running and take right over in his place, and he welcomed the wage. Would I love to be able to afford to pay all my workers Doctors wages? You bet! Because almost 100% of my workers earn every dollar I pay them, and some! The world where you can hold out for more and more money is fast shrinking.

DO you mean to tell me that you could not find a decent paying job on your own, and thank God your Union came to the rescue? Come on...I do not believe that for a minute. People have come to rely on Unions much the same as RC folks rely on ARF's (said tongue in cheek). It is a matter of convenience, not necessity. If you tried hard enough, you would have been just as successful WITHOUT your Union. I did it, and fluorished extremely well! It can be done!

Yeah well, that is not going to happen in my life time. I agree but only to a point. I submit to you that there is a far greater cause on the horizon...American Government!! Greedy Government is taxing the crap out of local companies...to the point that they can no longer afford to operate in the USA. California kills industry with their enviromental BS!! They tax companies out of existance and force them to move their plants to PA. Then Governor Rendell does the same thing after offering tax exemptions to lure companies here in the first place. After the exemptions wear off, the tax burden then forces companies to move to China, Spain, Mexico...etc... it is horrific what our Government does to companies...and to start your own small business? Just try to keep up with all of the taxes and liabilities...unemployment, medical, dental, disability, state, local and Federal taxes, liability insurance...on and on! We have to pay to have a 4-million dollar insurance poilicy to cover us just in case we ship a defective part to an automotive company. What a crock!!

Now, back to RC Stuff...

I have built two planes from kits...a trainer and a Sig 1/4 scale clipped wing cub. The trainer took 6-months to complete, and the cub took over a year. I am glad I did it, and I did feel a sense of satisfaction BUT that was back in 1985/1986. I now build ARF's. Understand this, though. It still takes me an entire winter to complete an ARF. I am very detailed and I make it my own. All of my ARF's are one-off. I also have one RTF...it is not a one-off. It is a Hangar 9 1/4 Scale Piper Cub. I bought it for the sheer fun of flying a slow lazy aircraft that had some resemblance of a scale aircraft. I choose not to build kits because it takes ME so long to complete them, and I want to fly what I build...before I die.

That is all...[8D]

reincarnate

Good post YogaBlue.

Also I apologize to Smaka (and others) if I rustled any feathers earlier. It was not my intent. You are intuitive to gather the fact from my post that I am a union employed worker (skilled trades...inside wireman), and I commend you for that. I do wish you would gather a bit more information about your subject before you post, because almost all of what you write about organized labor is false in one form or another. You are correct that unions have their problems, just like all business and government alike have. You can't, however, demonize one without including the other. Fault never stands alone. A class or research on labor history would do you well, since you are obviously otherwise well educated.

We are however, both hobby enthusiasts who only want to see the skills flourish, so I'd like to think we could spend a Sunday afternoon side by side. A good airplane, a radio, and a 5 mph SW breeze can make most of us friends for a few hours anyway!

That's the last I'll say about that, even though I'd love to expound. Like Smaka, I'm passionate about my beliefs, but I hope we can both (all) set it aside for the good of the thread. As the mod implied earlier, it's too good otherwise to shut down. Very interesting thoughts popping up.

Also, I loved the segway to Ham radio. Great correlation.

Smacka

Reincarnate:
Honestly, I feel you do not owe me an apology. You said how you felt and your post did not really seem too over the top, in my opinion. I am very passionate when it comes to "politics", which is one reason I tried to be "funny" in the beginning with references to pass the doob, etc...I was trying to keep emotions from taking over.

To be honest, I feel that (going way back to the original post) there was way too much doom and gloom expressed over RC enthusiast choosing to build ARF's over Kits, scratch builds or plans. Tying those choices into a "Dying Country" and "Moral Decline" just seemed too extremist to me. I wanted to keep it more about RC kits, Scratch Builds and ARF's discussion but I let my emotions get the better of me and the whole thread became a political quagmire.

I loved it when I built my own plane from a kit BUT did that really accomplish all that much? Someone else designed the kit and precut the wood. Building the kit was as easy as reading a receipe and baking a cake. It just takes much longer because it is tedious work. I learned to hate monokote in the process. I learned to use CA sparingly, as I must have glued my fingers together about a gazillion times. I learned patience from kit building. But I am still missing an important step...to design and build my own plane from scratch...using what I have learned in the aerospace arena and applying it to wood aircraft. I want to cut all of my own wood, etc...maybe someday but in the mean time, I really like flying and enjoying my family and friends at the flying club. We are headed to IRCHA this Monday morning at 5am. Monday through Wednesday, they have some international flying championships, so that is why we are going early. I only wish it was NOT going to be in the high 90's all week with a real feel of over 100 (Muncie Indiana).

I have a question for all the Ham buffs. Do they still make crystals and tubes? If not, how can you really build your own Ham radio anymore? I was in a Ham radio club at my high school in Riverside, CA. All high schools had them back then (maybe they still do?), 1975 graduate. I liked doing that stuff but fail to see a dying country more so than highly technical electronics that have taken the place of tubes or crystals. BTW...KG6LMX.

Many posts have bits and pieces I agree with but there are those that I just do not get...like why pick on ARF builders? I have built somewhere around 10-ARF's, and each one took months for me to build. Is that because I am a goof or could it be that I am really maticulous about what I build. I think some people seem to feel that a great flying ARF is a given, like snapping LEGOS together. That thought is way off base. You can screw up an ARF in an instant during the build. I know, I did so and had to start over! It was not fun at all. I am proud to be able to say that my last 4-ARF's required zero radio trim to fly hands off. You cannot get that out of a Betty Crocker cook book

I guess I saw a more logical debate waged between scratch builds and RTF's but...but...but...not to beat up RTF pilots. Just to say that there is a lot of therory tied into aerospace (flight) that anyone should want to absorb at some point during his/her RC fun. This therory goes a long way toward explaining why the aircrafts respond the way they do when you move the flight controls. Kind of like my Math Professor once stated...put down your calculators and learn how to do this stuff long hand. How else will you know when the answer on your calculator seems plausible or not. To that degree...I agree with respect to the RC world...

Have fun...

blhollo2

My Feedback: (278)

Funny how someone always brings politics/obama into the mix when it has nothing to do with r/c..but one could ascertain that obama is probally a ARF guy

SCALECRAFT

My Feedback: (13)

I was going to post a long opinion of my thoughts. But I just want to say, I can scratch build/fabricate if I want, or buy an arf. I can play the piano and dig a trench. I teach my kids to rely on no one, government or individual. Unions, only if you have lost all hope in yourself.

Steve

Bluebrew

My Feedback: (1)

Instant gratification...it is a disturbing developement. I'm a kit "snob" of the surface vehicle genre and as such, I used to consult the car sections often. Used to is the key word. Have any of you fliers looked at that stuff lately? WOW!!! I joined in 2003 I believe and in this short amount of time I have witnessed a decline in communication skills of the young folks that is SCARY! I'm not talking "textspeak" or typos either.
Technology changes things...we all have to live with it, but education is key, and that is where(we're, wear, were) the ball has been dropped IMO.

Paul

Smacka

Hey, that's right. I need to add that to my resume. I can dig a trench, too. My wife states that it is so she does not have to do it when she lays me to rest for one more long weekend at the club *snicker*

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

We need an applauding smiley.

triadairbiscuit

I like spending time with my son more than building airplanes. Is that a sign of moral decay? Therefore I choose to buy arf's rather than sit in the shop for the entire winter. I don't need people to feel "sorry" for me because I don't build. I don't need that holier than thou attitude. You're special because you know how to build a model airplane? Gimme a break. Any dummy can do it given the time. I work on real airplanes for a living, and can tell you that models are NOTHING compared to the real deal. ARF's a symptom of the decline of American ingenuity and industrial might? Please. I wonder how many of you pay bills over the internet rather than driving to the bank or mailing the check. Thats the "harder" way to do it. It would build more character wouldn't it? I wonder how many of you buy your meat pre-packaged at the grocery store rather than going out and hunting, killing the beast, and butchering it in the time honored method. Isn't it more convenient to let someone else do it? Most of the time, yes. How many of you build your own engines? Manufacture your own epoxy? Mill the wood you use? Despite your self proclaimed moral high ground, you're all still primarily the "end user" of products and services. Wake up. We all have our place in society. Some build ARF's to fill a niche in the economy and that's great. Let's not forget why human beings form into social groups...to help each other. Only because of these modern economic realities you folks are complaining about do we have this little thing called "disposable income" and extra time to spend on little diversions like model airplanes. Otherwise you would likely be tending to your crops from sun up to sun down. No time for planes then. If you really believe that a more convenient, often more precise, time saving way of production that maximizes enjoyment for time constrained folks while allowing more modelers to enter this hobby is a bad thing, then I submit that although you may not necessarilly be chronologically old, your thinking is. Give up all the modern conveniences, then you can legitimately complain about arf's.

YogoBlue

My Feedback: (17)

Triadaribiscuit,

I dont think your understanding the point. This is after all hobby not a way of life. My point was first any dummy cant build well and secondly it brings a satisfaction and detail you cannot get with an ARF. Could picasso use paint by numbers? I suppose. But would that make the art suffer?

I see your point about doing everything like hunting, butchering, gardening etc but this is a hobby not a necessity. I dont look down on anyone that stricktly flys ARFs to each his own, my point was there is a very gratifying side that they are missing. I would be the last to claim a holier than thou attitude at all.

Building well is separate from flying, its that simple, its a craft, art or whatever you attribute to it. My feeling sorry for those that dont is just due to them missing a satisfaction you just cant get from assembling an ARF. No one forces anyone to do something they dont want to do.

Now on to my opinion.. You should be spending time with your son building..
I am Joking so dont take it personally!!!

Tx_RcFlyer

My Feedback: (7)

And one could also ascetain that if he built a kit and it didn't fly properly, he would continue throwing money at it hoping it would fix itself. Little would he realize you typically need to rebuild a poorly built airframe before it will truly fly correctly..

triadairbiscuit

Minus the fluff, the real point (which I'm not missing by the way) that many, but certainly not all, scratch builders try to make against ARF builders is that they are somehow better because they build. How would you feel if you were Christian and I said I felt sorry for you because, in your ignorence, you did not embrace Buddhism(just an example to illustrate a point), and thus miss out on all sorts of enlightenment? You would likely tell me to take a hike. Perhaps I enjoy this hobby just as much as scratch builders, but in different ways. Perhaps I wouldn't enjoy building even if I had the time. The point that becomes clear to me is that many scratch builders seem unable to see, or accept any point of view but their own in terms of this hobby. You seem to be able to see both sides of the coin, which is great. The OP takes great pains to not directly insult ARF builders, but does so discreetly. To paraphrase the way I read it; ARF's are a sign of the end times for our nation, and their lazy and unskilled propenents are to blame. You may not intentionally do so, but there is an underlying tone of superiority to your post as well. Thats just how I interpret it, and I'm certainly not trying to pick a fight. Actually your second post confirms to me that you're really just hoping others can find the same fulfillment you do in building, which is a noble intention. Just be careful how you classify those who don't feel the need for that kind of fulfillment. Perhaps I'm a bit sensitive because this is not the first thread I've seen that takes a swipe at ARF builders. Why are ARF's such a threat? In fact, I'm just trying to point out that we all participate in this hobby on different monetary, time, and interest levels. ARF builders are people to.

hooker53

My Feedback: (106)

What a thread-Ha.

I think we have seen many and all sides to this and thats good. This is a sport anymore and not just a hobby. Although I guess you could say it's a hobby that lots have turned into a sport. As for me-I do it all and have been since the late 60's. I like all aspects of the sport regardless if it's a 1/3 scale BUSA kit, turbine jet or a ARF. Heck the way some of our carriers are shipping these days your ARF may be a kit when you get it!! Ha. However, my first love is scratch building or at least a very involved kit. Why, because when i spend 18 to 24 month's on a build with three month's alone just on the cockpit what with lathe turning my own instrument bezles and the likes and when ran down the runway it lifts off at my command and lands without a hitch there's a certain type of old world craftsmanship/skill that GENTLEMEN, you are just not going to get/feel with an ARF. Sorry. Now I may fly ARF's while building my others but it all comes back to my roots. artisanship. Do what you like, the main thing is keep one in the air!!

Roy

triadairbiscuit

Oh, BTW, my son is only two, but I think it would be great for us to learn to build together when he's old enough to handle tools, epoxy, etc. Till then, I'll hang with the other ARF criminals!