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Tips for glassing warbird.

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Old 06-21-2014, 01:51 PM
  #201  
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Clueless

has no clue how polyurethane works.

Whatever, dont know why he wastes his and our time.
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Old 06-21-2014, 04:12 PM
  #202  
jayman618
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Sensai I have done the fiberglass, and the epoxy methods many times and am happy with both. What Min Wax product are you talking about specifically. There are many on their web sight.

Thanks

Jay
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Old 06-21-2014, 06:20 PM
  #203  
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Originally Posted by chip_MG View Post
The point of using glass cloth and resin at all is for its added strength and surface tuffness, plus making a more suitable substrate to paint on. It also makes the surface much less prone to hanger rash as well.
If ya use minwax, there is not binding matrix created as does with resin cloth combo, hense it is a waste of the glass cloth, might as well just primer the raw balsa, sand and go.
Relax there fella. Glass cloth of the weight we use in finishing balsa, adds little practical strength. The binder you use to hold it to the balsa makes very little difference WHEN you do it right. Sure you can glob on the resin and you will get a tougher surface, but at the expense of unnecessary weight. The idea for a warbird and every other bird too, is to make a practical bed for paint at minimal weight gain. This was discussed ad nauseun earlier in the thread. Earlier pages may be good reading for you
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Old 06-23-2014, 05:11 AM
  #204  
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Originally Posted by jayman618 View Post
Sensai I have done the fiberglass, and the epoxy methods many times and am happy with both. What Min Wax product are you talking about specifically. There are many on their web sight.

Thanks

Jay
Hello Jay,
I have epoxied and glassed many of airframe in my day but all I have used in the last decade or so is oil based Minwax.

Bob
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Old 06-23-2014, 05:16 AM
  #205  
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Originally Posted by chip_MG View Post
Well here is a bone to chew on about the is ideal that minwax is compairble to expoy resin which is laughable really.. Have anyone ever seen a boat or camper shell or anything for that matter made with a paint product and glass cloth?????? No of course not. A person who thinks so does not understand that the resin and glass or called a composite for a reason, duh.. Maybe one could use glass cloth and water then when dry , scratch your head and wonder why it wont hold its shape.. Some people seem to be confused big time here. Maybe the F-35 made of carbon fiber and epoxy resin would be just a s strong if they used mud instead of expoy resin, ha ha ha ha, makes about as much sense.
Well, well, well, pull up armchair, type on favorite keyboard and relieve all doubt of creditable knowledge base for us all to see...

Bob
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:33 AM
  #206  
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Bob,
I was wondering what your response was going to be to that.
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:37 AM
  #207  
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and, no response I'm sure.
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:10 AM
  #208  
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Originally Posted by sensei View Post
Well, well, well, pull up armchair, type on favorite keyboard and relieve all doubt of creditable knowledge base for us all to see...

Bob

Very well stated.
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Old 06-23-2014, 09:21 AM
  #209  
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Gotta love the self proclaimed experts that really don't have a clue . makes the rest of us look smarter. Lol.
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Old 06-23-2014, 10:13 AM
  #210  
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Or proclaim a process is flawed, that they have never experienced first hand. We are finding that "Toe out", is working well with a particular design. I am sure some would proclaim that would not work either.
I will take first person accounts over conjecture, any day of the week.
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:41 AM
  #211  
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I have my Corsair glassed with Minwax WB Poly and it has a very nice hard surface. What I like about the Poly is it has a little more flex to it than Epoxy resin, so less likely to crack at soft spots like where you would be picking the wing up often. Although I do notice the West Systems epoxy does have more flex to it than the Z-poxy I used.
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Old 06-23-2014, 02:06 PM
  #212  
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The first time I saw this thread I did an experiment to see the result for myself. Here is what I did.. I placed three layers of 3/4 oz on a waxed 1/4 " plate of glass using Minwax Uruethane. Them did the same thing with West systems epoxy resin. Once they dried about 48 hours latter, I piled them off the plate and flexed the resulting two sheets. The minwax sheet snapped with almost no effort at all, It was very britle as well. The one with epoxy I was able to flex back and forth many times without a failure. That what I am using for my standard here. I have used most forms of finishing an Airplanes that I have built over the years.. I have a epoxy glass sig kougar that I built in 1981 that still looks great so I know it works and will hold up for longer than I need really. I'[ve tryied the latex ideal on a Bud Nosen Citabria, bad ideal but I had to see.. I just like systems that will give a lasting result I guess.
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Old 06-23-2014, 04:54 PM
  #213  
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Well your first mistake was not applying it to a sheet of balsa, Of course it cracked. The Poly gets absorbed into the wood fibers, making it stronger as well as bonding the glass to the wood. The Poly crosslinks with the wood fibers creating a tight bond. Thats why it make great furniture finish.
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Old 06-23-2014, 04:57 PM
  #214  
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Yah, that is not really a viable experiment. But whatever works for ya. My Polycrylic glass is working out just fine. I actually have plane I did both on. I like the polycrylic for the fuselage, as it is easier to get the cloth to lay down properly and not bubble up. A problem I have had with resin.
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Old 06-23-2014, 06:05 PM
  #215  
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The ideal was to see if urathane was as good or better, I did'nt try "polycrlic" Most poeple seem to gravitate to what is easy to do as opposed to which gives the best results, no supprize there. But It's just a hobby anyway.
Each to his own right. At least some folks are still building and thats a good thing.
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:01 PM
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I do not know which one is better, but they are both certainly viable. I will be experimenting with the peel ply technique for my current project, but again, it will take some practice, as I have many compound curves. I have been told here the trick is to do it in pieces.
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Old 06-24-2014, 03:52 AM
  #217  
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I don't see either epoxy or Minwax being a better choice than the other as a base for top coat; they both render a stable surface that bonds a single ply of 1/2 to 3/4 oz. cloth in place.
Remember; the reason for placing a ply of cloth down in the first place is to hold the swell back down under the primer from the balsa wood or it will in fact show the wood grain on its first outing in the sun while ruining the finish you worked so hard to achieve.

To think you are adding allot of torsional, or lateral strength, or security from hangar rash from a single ply of nothing more than let's say silk to one side of a substrate only is silly, if the structure isn't there in the first place, this type of layup won't help you.

Building a 1 ply, core, 1 ply substrate from a single ply of 1/2 or 3/4 oz. cloth and epoxy on each side of a structural core like honeycomb or PVC is in fact a very structural panel, fuselage, wing skin, or tail feather components with good load carrying qualities, but that is another type of use of the glass and epoxy and not to be confused with a paint prep scenario.

The only real security we can have from hangar rash is the gray matter between our ears while handling our airplanes on the ground. As Vertical Grimmace has already stated the Minwax is in fact easier to use, it is a single component with no mixing needed, it's easier to apply and remove bubble in the cloth, and it is easier to clean up. This is all great for the pro, Novus, or beginner, both epoxy or Minwax will last on your airplanes for many years with great results. So spend your money and take your pick, but don't be misguided by poor information you can find in these threads, experiment, practice, and attain your own knowledge base allowing you to make your own sound decisions.

Bob

Last edited by sensei; 06-24-2014 at 03:55 AM.
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Old 06-24-2014, 04:47 AM
  #218  
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Well stated. The biggest advantage Minwax has over epoxy is drying time. When using the WB Poly it dries in about an hour, where the Epoxy can take up to 24 hours before you can reapply. I found using EZ-Kote as the base coat to seal the wood works best, then follow that up with the Minwax WB poly. EZ-Kote is thicker, has lower water content so less likely to cause the wood to swell or warp. I used it on my Corsair wings which has really thin sheeting and not a ripple happened. The one thing I have also found is the wood feels less likely to be able to put a finger through it when picking it up, where before the cloth it felt very fragile. Reason I dont use EZ-Kote for all of it is due to cost, I can buy 2 quarts of Minwax for the cost of one bottle of the EZ-Kote.
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Old 06-24-2014, 08:50 AM
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A couple more thoughts or tips if you will, on this and I'll leave it be. I started using carbon veil (0.2 oz per sq yd) about 15 years ago and really like it either on the top side or finishing side or the bottom side of the sheets, next to the foam. It adds a considerable amount of stiffness to a structure.

Any of the finishing materials being descussed here-in can be used to apply the material. I use non-tautening Nitrate dope for the bedding, a throw back technique. Why? because I have found it to be extremely thin and light after drying, it is elementary to apply, and allows easy working of the carbon around compound curves (I smooth it with a finger). Carbon "fills" in very few coats and a surface can be primer ready quickly. It isn't ding resistant; I always take great care in handling. The finished wings are always carried in their own felt lined cases that I custom build. A key reason why some wings I have for 10+ years still look new.

I tend to build plug in wings and for my application, areas tend to be 500 sq inches per panel. Panel weight, finished with clear coats appled typically run 12-13 ozs. The weight compares well to Wrinkle Kote finished wings (which I abhor).

I didn't learn to do that overnight. It took years of practice and experimentation. The key thing to me has been to truly understand what strength is required in an application and figure out what minimal materials are required to achieve that strength. Once strength is settled during construction, finishing will only add weight and if one were to use heavy grades of glass or carbon, unnecessary strength would result but at a compromise in weight build up. On the other hand, if an adequate but super light finish is required, then Bob and I and several others have presented fine techniques that any one can use..."Nuff said" Adios!
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Old 06-24-2014, 09:31 AM
  #220  
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Now back to our regularly scheduled program.
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Old 06-24-2014, 10:17 AM
  #221  
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When I covered my Chipmunk I made the mistake of using Rustoleum to paint it with, it came out heavy and it shows in how it flies, or rather, lands, the landing gear is toast after only 2 flights, all bent to crap. (last flight it ended up on its back from a dead stick, wheels never touched the ground, but gear bent anyway) My Corsair I used Polycrylic and 1/2oz glass, and it is nice and light. My 1/5th SIG Cub I used Koverall and dope, still in the finishing stages, but it is very light. Learn from your mistakes is what I always say, Even though a paint is fuel proof, doesn't always mean it will work for a plane. I plan to paint my Corsair with Latex followed by a clear of Klass Kote, so the weight should come out good, and if it does, then my P-51 should as well, though I haven't decided on a paint scheme yet.
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Old 07-01-2014, 05:25 PM
  #222  
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I recommend using some kind of fabric and liquid that soaks into fabric and turns hard.
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Old 07-08-2014, 02:47 AM
  #223  
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Originally Posted by wyowindworks View Post
I recommend using some kind of fabric and liquid that soaks into fabric and turns hard.
How clever are we?

Bob

Last edited by sensei; 07-08-2014 at 03:07 AM.
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Old 07-08-2014, 03:17 AM
  #224  
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I'm speechless. Why didn't I think of that?
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Old 07-09-2014, 09:36 AM
  #225  
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Wow so simple a Caveman can do it.
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