Epoxy for laminating
#26
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Some racing model boaters use this resin, Resin Research Epoxy 2000 w/ 2100 fast Hardener, supposedly almost as hard as MGS but without the high pricetag or shipping. Was developed as a epoxy replacement for polyester in polystyrene foam surfboard fabrication. Talking to an epoxt salesman, he said most fast curing systems will be harder than slow curing systems because of more crosslinking. YMMV
From Fiberglass Supply, Washington :: We are now stocking Resin Research Epoxy. It is a 2:1 ratio room temp. Cure epoxy that is water-white. Resin Research Epoxies are specially formulated for building surfboards but are also suitable for other applications where a clear finish is desirable and the need exists for an epoxy that exhibits good UV resistant characteristics. As with most epoxies its properties will greatly improve by post curing the part.
Also avail in other parts of the country and world -- visit their web site.
From Fiberglass Supply, Washington :: We are now stocking Resin Research Epoxy. It is a 2:1 ratio room temp. Cure epoxy that is water-white. Resin Research Epoxies are specially formulated for building surfboards but are also suitable for other applications where a clear finish is desirable and the need exists for an epoxy that exhibits good UV resistant characteristics. As with most epoxies its properties will greatly improve by post curing the part.
Also avail in other parts of the country and world -- visit their web site.
Last edited by boater; 06-17-2015 at 12:00 PM.
#27
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I've done quite a bit of test with Resin Research Resins. Post curing does nothing to improve the resin. The low viscosity is great but the Tg (softness at elevated temps) is worse than most. MGS is king and worth the extra dough. The shipping for the fast hardener (H285F) doesn't require hazardous material charges....at least from Aircraft Spruce. The fast is suitable for most modeling procedures. My next favorite is Adtech 820. The issue with that resin is that it turns some IMC clears (In Mold Coatings) hazy. It will also dull mold surfaces treated with semi-permanents for some reason. For that reason I did almost all my production work with MGS L285/H285F. USC635 has a lot of bang for the buck but I a little too viscous for high performance applications. It will cause some IMC's to turn tacky and never polish right after demolding.
Last edited by wyowindworks; 06-17-2015 at 03:38 PM.
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I've done quite a bit of test with Resin Research Resins. Post curing does nothing to improve the properties. The low viscosity is great but the Tg (softness at elevated temps) is worse than most. MGS is king and worth the extra dough. The shipping for the fast hardener (H285F) doesn't require hazardous material charges....at least from Aircraft Spruce. The fast is suitable for most modeling procedures. My next favorite is Adtech 820. The issue with that resin is that it turns some IMC clears (In Mold Coatings) hazy. It will also dull mold surfaces treated with semi-permanents for some reason. For that reason I did almost all my production work with MGS L285/H285F. USC635 has a lot of bang for the buck but I a little to viscous for high performance applications.
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Adam, I believe you tested the RR 2070 resin, please examine the specs for the 1980 and 2000 resins. http://www.resinresearch.net/id2.html Resin 2000 is supposed to be harder than polyester!! A copy from Graphite Master's Webpage on RR2000 resin::"The Resin Research Surfboard Epoxy is available in three styles. The original 2000 Epoxy system (clear), the CE Epoxy which has an optical brightener (bluish tint) and a UV inhibitor, and the newest Kwik Kick Epoxy which looks like the CE but goes off quicker and becomes harder faster than any other surfboard epoxy on the market. This Epoxy system was developed by Greg Loehr and has many benefits; it is extremely easy to use, dries harder than Polyester, can be used on Polyurethane blanks, and is odorless. You must mix at a 2 to 1 (epoxy to hardener) ratio, also mix thoroughly. You must mix at a 2 to 1 (epoxy to hardener) ratio, also mix thoroughly. 1 Quart of RR Epoxy."
Yes, I agree MGS is KING.
I'll confess being the choice of surfers doesn't usually buy alot of respect from the aerospace crowd.
Yes, I agree MGS is KING.
I'll confess being the choice of surfers doesn't usually buy alot of respect from the aerospace crowd.
Last edited by boater; 06-18-2015 at 09:38 AM.
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Rudy, I never tried the 1980 and 2000 resins because their manufacturer specs are lower (HDT, Flexural Modulus, and hardness) than the 2070 that I tested. I also played with their slower hardeners for the 2070 which performed even worse. Post Curing did nothing to improve my elevated temp deflection tests.
Take a look here. Lower HDT, Lower Modulus, Lower or equal hardness
http://www.resinresearch.net/id8.html
Also, the Resin Research 2070 resins stick to semi-permanent mold releases. I can't comment on their other resins.
84 Barcol hardness is pretty low. I think MGS is 92...going from memory.
Take a look here. Lower HDT, Lower Modulus, Lower or equal hardness
http://www.resinresearch.net/id8.html
Also, the Resin Research 2070 resins stick to semi-permanent mold releases. I can't comment on their other resins.
84 Barcol hardness is pretty low. I think MGS is 92...going from memory.
Last edited by wyowindworks; 06-18-2015 at 10:20 AM.
#34
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Many of my landing gear are laid up with the 635 and medium hardener. USC epoxy takes its time reaching full performance. I've found it slower than others but it eventually gets there. Definitely agree post curing helps. I use 170 for 24 hours usually but maybe higher temp is better/quicker; I just don't have the capability in my shop.
#36
All 3 hardeners use a different mix ratio. Epoxy must be mixed accurately for proper cure. Who ever told you to use less hardener did not do you any favors. I also use a gram scale to measure and have never had a problem with the cure of any resin I have used.
#37
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I didn't intend to imply that there was something wrong with the USC635 epoxy systems. There is nothing wrong with it in my opinion and is very reasonably priced with simple shipping requirements. It cures well but takes a little longer to reach full cure than some other systems. Once it's there, it's there for good. I too use a gram scale which measures to 1/10 gram. Good mixing is a must for any two part system, be it epoxy, urethane, ester whatever have you.
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ADTECH 820 (my favorite resin) has acceptable Tg at room temperature cure but does MUCH better when cured at elevated temperatures.
Not to talk down to people or insult anyone, but you need to understand exactly what "Tg" means. It is the "Glass Transition Temperature" and is the temperature at which epoxy ceases to be "hard" and starts softening and becoming more rubbery. Tg actually represents a range of temperatures but for simplicity just think of it as the temperature where you start losing all the great characteristics of epoxy and begin having problems.
All quality resin manufacturers will post the Tg in their specs. And almost ALL resins Tg benefit from elevated temperature cures (hot box for example). Cliff Notes version: You can not get the best Tg from any epoxy without heat curing. ADTECH for example recommends 150 degree F post cure to maximize Tg and hardness.
Most epoxies Tg value when cured at room temperature is about 135 degrees F. Easily reached under darker colors sitting in the sun (especially the Florida sun where I am located) or in a closed vehicle. Post curing elevates this 40 or 45 degrees F... a BIG difference.
Hope this helps explain things a bit.
Tom
Not to talk down to people or insult anyone, but you need to understand exactly what "Tg" means. It is the "Glass Transition Temperature" and is the temperature at which epoxy ceases to be "hard" and starts softening and becoming more rubbery. Tg actually represents a range of temperatures but for simplicity just think of it as the temperature where you start losing all the great characteristics of epoxy and begin having problems.
All quality resin manufacturers will post the Tg in their specs. And almost ALL resins Tg benefit from elevated temperature cures (hot box for example). Cliff Notes version: You can not get the best Tg from any epoxy without heat curing. ADTECH for example recommends 150 degree F post cure to maximize Tg and hardness.
Most epoxies Tg value when cured at room temperature is about 135 degrees F. Easily reached under darker colors sitting in the sun (especially the Florida sun where I am located) or in a closed vehicle. Post curing elevates this 40 or 45 degrees F... a BIG difference.
Hope this helps explain things a bit.
Tom
Last edited by T_om; 06-29-2015 at 04:51 AM.
#41
When you jet guys start talking about West Systems, you are forgetting one simple piece of information:
West Systems is made for marine use where some give is a requirement.
If I started building racing boats using the rigid epoxies you are all crowing about, the boats would fall apart before the end of the season due to the epoxy joints failing from the continuous pounding they take running at their 50+ MPH speeds. Another advantage of West Systems, for boaters anyway, is that if a piece of skin is damaged, it can be removed by heating up the joints without damaging the rest of the boat. At that point, you only need to replace the damaged part and attach with more West Systems.
West Systems is made for marine use where some give is a requirement.
If I started building racing boats using the rigid epoxies you are all crowing about, the boats would fall apart before the end of the season due to the epoxy joints failing from the continuous pounding they take running at their 50+ MPH speeds. Another advantage of West Systems, for boaters anyway, is that if a piece of skin is damaged, it can be removed by heating up the joints without damaging the rest of the boat. At that point, you only need to replace the damaged part and attach with more West Systems.
Last edited by Hydro Junkie; 07-02-2015 at 07:11 PM.
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#44
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When you jet guys start talking about West Systems, you are forgetting one simple piece of information:
West Systems is made for marine use where some give is a requirement.
If I started building racing boats using the rigid epoxies you are all crowing about, the boats would fall apart before the end of the season due to the epoxy joints failing from the continuous pounding they take running at their 50+ MPH speeds. Another advantage of West Systems, for boaters anyway, is that if a piece of skin is damaged, it can be removed by heating up the joints without damaging the rest of the boat. At that point, you only need to replace the damaged part and attach with more West Systems.
West Systems is made for marine use where some give is a requirement.
If I started building racing boats using the rigid epoxies you are all crowing about, the boats would fall apart before the end of the season due to the epoxy joints failing from the continuous pounding they take running at their 50+ MPH speeds. Another advantage of West Systems, for boaters anyway, is that if a piece of skin is damaged, it can be removed by heating up the joints without damaging the rest of the boat. At that point, you only need to replace the damaged part and attach with more West Systems.
Last edited by boater; 07-02-2015 at 11:33 PM.
#46
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The girl I spoke to gave me a high price. She also said it doesn't come in small quantities (1 pint-1qt) that I wanted. If there is someone else I should speak with, then state that... . We're having a friendly informative discussion and you have to get nasty....Geesh get a life
#47
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The girl I spoke to gave me a high price. She also said it doesn't come in small quantities (1 pint-1qt) that I wanted. If there is someone else I should speak with, then state that... . We're having a friendly informative discussion and you have to get nasty....Geesh get a life
And a gallon WITH hardener runs a bit over a hundred bucks, cheaper than WEST at most places.
Got your life yet?
But at any rate, Soller Composites sells small quantites. http://www.sollercomposites.com/composites/Epoxy.html
And for the posters that think WEST is the only "boat" resin in the universe and ADTECH isn't, I am LMAO... ADTECH was developed as a marine system. It is just a lower viscosity, harder and more heat tolerant marine system. But like I said, whatever blows your skirt up.
Tom
PS: And yes, I have used a LOT of WEST epoxy in the past. Way back then IIRC the drums we bought were 44 gallons. I think now their drums are a bit over 50 gallons... but don't quote me. It is a good resin system. The last vessel we built with it was a 44 foot cold-molded tri.
I just like ADTECH better now. Easier to work with. MUCH lower viscosity means easier and light layups. Harder. Higher Tg. Just better for modeling than WEST.
I would buy MSG L285, it is even better than ADTECH, and is even certified for man-carrying aircraft. But the HAZMAT charge on the slow hardener is a killer. Generally, the slow hardeners are the most toxic. But ADTECH slow hardener does not require HAZMAT fees... at least the last few times I have purchased any.
#48
Here is a link to an epoxy resin manufacturer I have been using as one of my suppliers in business for the last 20 + years or so, anyway they have many application specific systems from flexible to very rigid. We primarily use the HTR 250 Clear, the HTR 212, and the HTR 6040 slow from this particular supplier. Most all of what we manufacture is done so from high temp epoxy pre-preg systems but we do use several hundred gallons of wet layup epoxy systems each year as well. http://www.resinservices.com/custom.asp?CustomID=14
Bob
Bob