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Laminate vs Fiberglass... Pro's Cons and which do i choose?

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Laminate vs Fiberglass... Pro's Cons and which do i choose?

Old 08-14-2017, 08:35 AM
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chase.canade
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Default Laminate vs Fiberglass... Pro's Cons and which do i choose?

Hi,
I've searched the web and found nothing comparing lamination versus fiberglass as far as pros and cons.

​​​​​​I'm hoping those here can help me get a clear picture of the differences so i can make a more informed decision as which to go with for a couple birds i have. Both expanded foam. Namely

One FMS Easy Trainer 1280
2 RVJets

I have a lot of questions concerning both methods and materials. For instance, how do they compare handling a crash?
How to choose thickness? Or smooth the ripples in the styrofoam for laminating and painting.

Can i paint prior to fiberglass since it's so thin? What's the prep for that process.

And what products of both should i stay away from and as important, which have proven themselves that i should get?

​​​​​​And more questions...

​​​​​ I'd appreciate those that have the experience steering me right on this. Showing me the ropes, steering me away from disaster and just helping me understand the options and how and when to choose between them.

​​​​​​Cheers...

Last edited by chase.canade; 08-14-2017 at 08:38 AM.
Old 08-16-2017, 12:37 PM
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You don't indicate what material you were thinking of in regards to "lamination". However, neither of the planes you listed are intended to be "laminated" with anything nor covered in fiberglass cloth.

If your question is because you want to make the planes more crash-resistant, it might make them more resistant to damage in the event of a crash, however you'll be adding significant weight which will most likely adversely affect the flight characteristics of the planes.

If you're interest is because you want to paint the planes, foam planes can be painted with the proper type of paint (I don't fly foamies so I am not familiar with what paint to recommend).

In any case, you would not paint and then fiberglass over the paint. You fiberglass and then prime and paint.
Old 08-16-2017, 01:44 PM
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Rafael23cc
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I _THINK_ he's talking about covering film like monocote, ultracote, etc.

I would strongly advise AGAINST adding covering film or fiberglass to the model mentioned. Too many compound curves and as indicated above, could adversely affect flight characteristics in such a low weight model.

Rafael
Old 08-16-2017, 02:03 PM
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To explain the phrase or word "laminating" or "laminate" it's basically a material made up by using typically two different materials to make one particular material, an example would be a sheet/plate made of a high density foam core - lets say a 1/8in thick sheet hard foam and then that have a layer of fiberglass on each side to make it stiffer and stronger - this would be considered a laminate material sheet/plate.

I suspect what you want is to apply a layer of fiberglass to your model, this would be in modeling terms be "glassing" or fiberglassing the surface of your model. A laminate is typically a ready made material plate/sheet, laminate - fusion.
Old 08-16-2017, 04:12 PM
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chase.canade
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HiLaminating with iron on film is what I was referring to. As many do. You Google search laminating an RC plane and you see tons on how to apply it.. like this..
Click image for larger version

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If "laminating" isn't what you call it here or it's too broad a term.. just let me know what you prefer it to be called and I'll use that term instead. Not trying to confuse anyone. It's just that's what everyone seems to be calling it on the web.. so i did too.

I was hoping you guys could tell me the pro's and cons of each. Laminating this type iron on film and perhaps another i saw but can't remember the name of at the moment. And fiberglass. Or glassing it.



How to know which to choose and when for a given bird.

How each handle a crash comparatively. And so on.

I was thinking of glassing the RVJet. I thought it might stiffen it up. Eliminate the wing flutter and flex it has as you can see in this video below in several places. Even on take off. As those wings look to have the iron on plastic film on them.


​​​​​​Range does sell the iron on laminating film for the RVJet.

As both can be laminated, as far as the wings. It seems a pretty common thing to do. Most only talk about how to apply it.
I haven't seen anything going into thickness's and choosing the right one.
Same for glassing it seems. Though i have seen mention the thickness they use. And some using polyurethane others i take it epoxy and others still other things as the resin.

Just looking for some advice is all.
Trying to learn the right way... Save some headaches figuring most mistakes have been made or done already by those that know more than i do on the subject.

Looking to be brought under a friendly wing or two so to speak...

Cheers..

Last edited by chase.canade; 08-16-2017 at 04:24 PM.
Old 08-17-2017, 09:36 AM
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Ah... of course you meant laminating film, sorry about that my brain must have been somewhere else last night. I don't have any experience with it but I would guess it's a lot quicker and simpler than fiberglassing.
Old 08-18-2017, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by chase.canade
HiLaminating with iron on film is what I was referring to. As many do. You Google search laminating an RC plane and you see tons on how to apply it.. like this..


must me an internet thing. Covering film or most appropriately the commercial name is monocote (you know like calling diapers pampers and tissue kleenex)

Laminating this type iron on film and perhaps another i saw but can't remember the name of at the moment.
See my post above.

I was thinking of glassing the RVJet. I thought it might stiffen it up. Eliminate the wing flutter and flex it has as you can see in this video below in several places. Even on take off. As those wings look to have the iron on plastic film on them.
when was the last time you took a flight on a commercial jet? Ever sit by the window and just stare at the wingtip? The flexibility is there for a reason. I wouldn't mess with it. But if you insist..... If there is film on the wing already, you will need to strip it off to have a good bond of the fiberglass to the underlying foam.

As both can be laminated, as far as the wings. It seems a pretty common thing to do. Most only talk about how to apply it.
I haven't seen anything going into thickness's and choosing the right one.
covering film is pretty thin. You can get _some_ skin stiffness from it but on a foam-core aircraft, i doubt you will get much other than _covering_ it's official intended use. And given the curves that I can clearly see on the RVJet, the film will probably lift off the "valleys" and pull straight across the "peaks" as soon as you apply any kind of load. On the other aircraft, you may get _some_ stiffness given that a portion of the wing is fairly straight.

Same for glassing it seems. Though i have seen mention the thickness they use. And some using polyurethane others i take it epoxy and others still other things as the resin.
Use the lightest fiberglass fiber mat available, pay attention to the fiber weave, as it plays the biggest role in stiffness. there is mono-directional fiber, bi-directional fiber and tri-directional fiber. The more "directions" the heavier is going to be. I would recommend the lightest bi-directional mat available making sure that the fibers are at 45 degrees with the axis of the wing. That should control the torsion, the stiffness of the wing itself will carry the load axial to the wing. Which may not completely control the axial flexing of the wing.
on top of that, Vacuum bagging will produce the lightest possible skin by extracting the excess resin that may have been laid into the weave.

As far as resin selection, epoxy would be the best bet, as anything else could attack the foam and destroy it. You could test the reactivity on scrap pieces of foam before you decide on a specific resin.

As far as durability........ you will stiffen it up a bit, surface scratches will be thing of the past, but impacts will potentially have a more destructive outcome than before.

Honestly, I think you are creating too much work for yourself, but to each their own. We are here to independently enjoy the hobby as we see best.

Rafael
Old 08-18-2017, 11:54 AM
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chase.canade
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No I'm not referring to monocote.

Monocote is for covering ribbed aircraft.
These are foamies. I believe it's PET or PLL ... I don't know. They sell it as laminate in a variety of thicknesses for foamies. Usually only the wings are "laminated" with the material.

Fiberglass used on the whole bird.

Thanks anyway guys for the responses, sorry i don't have the knowledge to be more specific. Just using terms everyone else seems to be using.. In video after video after video on the subject.

I'll research the two methods further and either figure it out my own. Or ask those familiar with these type aircraft and the two methods of coatings or coverings or laminating or whatever the heck people want to call it.


I was just hoping to learn from those with much more experience than I in the matter.

Cheers...
Old 08-18-2017, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by chase.canade
No I'm not referring to monocote.

Monocote is for covering ribbed aircraft.
These are foamies. I believe it's PET or PLL ... I don't know. They sell it as laminate in a variety of thicknesses for foamies. Usually only the wings are "laminated" with the material........
The only other thing that I've used on foam aircraft is packing tape. Again, in my mind, any kind of _film_ will only be beneficial to aircraft with relatively straight wings

Please come back and post here your findings on this other laminating film and your final outcome. It may be you the one that provides the friendly wing.

Good luck.
Rafael
Old 08-25-2017, 04:03 AM
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I'm a new guy here, but have about 25 years of composite construction experience in the high-performance marine world. I didn't read everything word for word on all of the responses, but let me attempt to give a little help, if I may?

typically, you cannot directly cover many foams with any form of resin, that contains styrene (polyester and vinylester resins). Styrene is the stuff that makes that smell of "bondo" we all know. If you want to safely cover a foam you are not sure about, brush on some "neat epoxy," that is, unthinned epoxy. When it begins to "tack up," apply another thin coat. This can be done with a brush or roller. Also, use an epoxy that is "non blushing" which means upon hardening, you will not need to remove the "amine blush" from the surface. Amine blush is a natural process that occurs to most epoxies as the hardening takes place, and the air and humidity are hitting the surface. Upon hardening of the epoxy, scratch it lightly to prep it for any paint, or finish you like, or you can fiberglass over the epoxy, though weight is a concern. If I were doing it, I would apply a coat to the foam, allow it to tack-up, then apply another coat, and as it begins to tack-up, I would apply a very light, one or two ounce cloth, if you are just trying to make it more durable. Use s-glass if you can locate it, e-glass is good too, s is better. stay away from carbon as it is stronger, however, when it does fail, it fails disastrously. This is also the problem with vacuum-bagging, though vb does lighten the finished structure, by removing unneeded resin, and allowing the proper resin/cloth ratio, it also is more likely to damage upon many impacts, as it is not as flexible. When creating any structure, you have to find a balance of strength, weight, rigidity, and cost. Notice that strength and rigidity are not the same thing. Think in terms of a 1/4 inch thick piece of plywood is much stronger than a 2 inch thick piece of extruded polystyrene board, but the extruded polystyrene board feels much stronger, as it is so much thicker. I don't do a lot of forum stuff online, but saw this. if you have any questions about what I stated, please feel free to call me at 443 975 8469. thanks
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Old 09-10-2017, 06:02 PM
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I'm trying again at my explanation (cheers); my guess is that laminating film in this context is thin Mylar sheets with adhesive and not the typical covering film like Monocote. The mylar or "lamfilm" is a little thicker and stiffer than typical iron on covering used on wood models and is usually without color... am I right? Much more suitable than fiberglassing on an EPP foam model I'd say. Chase Cande go with the lamfilm...

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