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A few newbie type questions

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Old 12-27-2007, 05:17 PM
  #26  
Ed Smith
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

Jorden,

The parting board must have a smooth, gloss waxable finish. If not the gelcoat will stick to it. The parting board does not have to be as big as shown in your pictures. A 1/2" all round your plug is adequate.

Ed S
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Old 12-27-2007, 06:51 PM
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

Here are my little wheelpant molds...I wish I would have drilled them up or at least put some index's on them while I was making the molds...When I was initially doing them I was planning on envelope bagging the parts and didn't "think" I'd ever want to re-join the mold halves...But as it turns out it would make it allot easier for assembling the wheelpants...I'll drill them up someday...But it would have been better to do it while making the molds in the first place... and now I'm wanting to try not bagging the parts and join them wet...So see...We all have to learn some things the hard way...

Try to design the molds to suite *You*...There is no "One Way" to any of this...Listen to other's "experience"...And adapt it to your situation...Then do what makes sense for you...

Have Fun...

Chuck
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Old 12-27-2007, 09:15 PM
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

http://www.teamseacats.com/index.php?s=parting+board
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Old 12-28-2007, 08:53 AM
  #29  
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

Chuck,

That's a great shot of your molds. Now I can understand what Ed was describing in his posts. I didn't realize you could leave the wheel opening open like that. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

Thanks again.

Jorden
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Old 12-28-2007, 08:55 AM
  #30  
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions


Jake,

That's a great site you have. I speant a few hours going over what you've done. I had previously found the site for "The Sled" so of course I went back there and spent some time. Talk about a huge effort! I would love to see that thing fly.

-Jorden
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Old 12-28-2007, 09:33 AM
  #31  
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

Ooooo...thanks for the reminder - my crawler update emails apparently have not been coming through for the sled project...time to post an update!
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Old 01-03-2008, 09:58 PM
  #32  
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

OK I've finally gotten off the pot, and am now fishin! I was a little hesitant about using my very nice 1/4 scale wheel pant as my first mold candidate. What if the wax doesn't work right, since I'm using regular car Carnuba wax. So I'm using a Sullivan Fuel tank instead. Since I couldn't find any West Systems graphite locally, I used regular hobby graphite. Also, I decided to use West Systems Colloidal Silica (Cabosil). Man that stuff is like fairy dust! Don't even think about sneezing around an opened container! I quickly put on my dust mask to keep from inhaling that stuff. Who knows what it does to your lungs. I tried to pickup some milled fiber too, but couldn't figure out which of the West Systems fillers is milled fiber. So, I mixed up my "toolin resin" using the 105 Resin and 206 hardner. Added 10% graphite and 10% Cabosil, by weight. I layered this on the tank, which has about 6 coats of wax, and two coats (paper towel method) of PVA. By the way, how long do you guys let the Carnuba wax set before buffing and adding another coat? I waited apx 45 mins between coats. Does that seem long? Looking at the working times of the 206 hardner, now I'm wishing I used the 205 fast cure instead for such a small job. It's amazing the few little things I've already learned from just this first attempt. My parting board is thin (1/32) ply that has been waxed and PVA'd. I used some pieces of balsa taped together to create the outline, then transferred it to the ply. I did get a little anxious to get started, so I'm afraid I may not have put on enough layers of wax. I may have just learned another lesson. Anyway now I'm just waiting for the "tooling resin" I mixed to "set up" a while before I start adding my layers of fiberglass. Oh yeah, another lesson, don't wait till or start at 8pm doing this stuff, when you have a 4am wake-up call to get to work. I now know I need to start early, and basically devote an entire day when doing molds and layups. Anyway, enough rambling, here's the pics.

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Old 01-04-2008, 08:38 AM
  #33  
Ed Smith
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

I am trying to help here.

I have noticed three things that may cause some grief.

The parting board is bare wood but waxed. Being bare wood this might not release as desired. I certainly would advise against this method for the future. I always paint my parting board to get a "Finished" surface.

The release wax used does not specify as "Mold Release" wax. Good luck with that one. You may be misled by that. The gelcoat would probably release from the tank material without any mold release.

In the picture the gelcoat looked as if it was too thick. Gelcoat should be thin enough to be painted on with a decent brush like thick paint. This will ensure proper coverage with no cavities. Spreading it on with a spatula is not a good idea. the outside surface of the gelcoat also needs to be smooth. If not there will be cavities between the gelcoat and the first layer of cloth. The cavities will eventually lead to the deterioration of the mold surface, They will breakout as parts are made.

For your information, Colloidal Silica is a food thickening agent!

I hope the foregoing is helpful.

Ed S
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Old 01-04-2008, 12:49 PM
  #34  
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

Ed,

Thanks as usual, and keep it coming.

Gotcha on the bare wood. It didn't dawn on me to paint it first. Again, another lesson learned. I'm always in favor of using the right tools, just too impatient to wait for an online/mail order, especially since we were just in the holiday season, I know there were delays with places being closed, or delayed shipping. Anyway, I will get some specific Mold Release Wax. I'm leaning towards the Formula Five that you mentioned here. I was using an epoxy brush, not a spatula. It's hard to see the brush bristles in the resin. You are right, it was thick. I wasn't sure how thin the consistency should be, but hey, you gotta play to win right! So hopefully, if this thing releases well enough, I'll whip up another batch and try again. I didn't get a chance to put the cloth down last night. So by the time I get home today, the tooling resin will be fully cured. We'll see how that goes.

Yup I had read that colloidal silica is a thickening agent used in food. I assume that since you can consume it, that doesn't mean you can breathe it without any ill effects. Just the thought of Silica/silicone in the lungs gives me the willies. Maybe an over-reaction on my part, who knows.

Hopefully I'll get more experience over the weekend.

Thanks again Ed

-Jorden
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Old 01-04-2008, 09:03 PM
  #35  
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

Well I couldn't wait to get home from work to check out my mold. By now it had completely cured and was pretty hard. Although, since it's epoxy, I suppose it'll continue curing for the next few days or so. Anyway, with a little negotiation, I was able to pull the tank from the mold, and pull the parting board away with no ill effects. I am very pleased with the results. They werent too shabby if I do say so myself. I do see two small cavities that were obviously bubbles from the resin being too thick. Since this was just a test piece, for experimenting and practicing, I decided not to lay additional layers of cloth to strengthen the mold, since I don't plan on using it. Anyway, enough of the chatter. Take a look, and give me some feedback. By the way, the brown stuff on the back side of the parting board is wax, or more precisely, melted crayon. It sealed up the backside really well, and got pretty had, just like a crayon. Imagine that! I'll probably use melted crayon in the future, as it was easy to work with.

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Old 01-04-2008, 09:51 PM
  #36  
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

Nice work!

The pink stuff... that's the carnuba wax, right?
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Old 01-05-2008, 10:37 AM
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

Slightly confused,im a newbee to and was under the impression that the gel coat should be sprayed on,no?
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Old 01-05-2008, 10:55 AM
  #38  
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

Slightly confused,im a newbee to and was under the impression that the gel coat should be sprayed on,no?
In an industrial environment spraying is normal. For our purpose brushing is acceptable. I have brushed the gelcoat on all of my molds.

The picture shows a Pylon Racing fuselage mold. The high gloss finish is very desirable. Also refer back to some of Teamseacats boat hull molds/plugs. That is the finish we strive for.

Ed S
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Old 01-06-2008, 02:17 PM
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

That is pro,hope mine come out similar Ed.
I myself am striving to make racing fuses eventually and another question i have is,if you make the fuselage in two halves how do you get the moulds neat enough around the edges so they join accurately?
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Old 01-06-2008, 03:23 PM
  #40  
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

I do not make the fuselage plug in two halves. I make a solid plug and fit the parting board to the desired split line position. As the second half of the mold is made without removing the plug from the first mold half the split line has to match.

In the picture the fuselage is a square section with 1/4" corner rads. the split line is along the top of the bottom fuselage rad. The bottom mold then is 1/4" deep. The other part of the mold is basically three sided.

On this Forum there is a thread entitled "Parting Board" The last post on that thread shows a typical Plug/parting board setup. In that example the split line is along the centre line of the fuselage. The first mold half would be laid up over exactly what you see. The board would then be removed. Without removing the plug the second mold half would be laid up over the projecting plug half and the now existing mold flange. with that procedure the mold alignment is guaranteed.

Ed S





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Old 01-07-2008, 12:53 PM
  #41  
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions


ORIGINAL: RabC

Slightly confused,im a newbee to and was under the impression that the gel coat should be sprayed on,no?
Yup, it sure is. It's Mother's brand Carnuba car wax. The tank I used it on seemed to do OK, but i don't know. This is my first mold, so I don't have anything to gauge it against
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Old 01-07-2008, 01:30 PM
  #42  
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

OK, moving forward. In for a penny, in for a pound!

I decided to move forward with building the mold of my wheel pant. Here are some photos of where I am as of today.

QUESTION: How long do you guys let your plugs stay in the mold, before you remove it? I've seen some posts/sites that remove the plug as soon as the resin hardens/cure. Others say that you should wait 3 days for epoxy resin. What Gives?

QUESTION: I wasn't able to get back to my mold until after the tooling resin had fully cured. Do you guys think I'll have a problem with the additional layers?

What I've done so far:

[ul][*] Cut the parting board from plastic coated shelf boards[*] Waxed and PVA'd the plug. Apx 7 coats of wax, and two coats of PVA[*] Taped up the opening for the wheel[*] Mixed up some Z-Poxy Epoxy with glass micro-balloons and grey coloring, and filled in the gap between the plug and the parting board[*] Popped out the plug, and trimmed and sanded the gap filler level. I was too impatient, and didn't wait for the epoxy to fully cure, so I had some of it pull away in a thin area[*] Filled in a few spots that ended up having bubble caused cavities, and the area where the epoxy pulled away. I used melted crayons for this (wish me luck!!!)[*] Using a single-edged blade scraper, and my scapel, I trimmed the crayon flush.
[/ul]

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Old 01-07-2008, 02:10 PM
  #43  
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

Continuing ...

[ul][*] Waxed the board several times. PVA'd the board and the plug again.[*] Oops, forgot to add "locating bumps". Removed PVA and wax from corners, and CA'd nickels to the board, and re-PVA'd the whole thing, 2 coats.[*] Mixed up some tooling resing. Using the tip from Ed S., I made it a lot less thick this time. Maybe a little too thin, as some of the surface became thin over time.[*] It's late at night by this time, so I went to bed, and then got up early and went to the field to get some flights in. By now the tooling resin is probably fully cured. Mistake?[*] Mixed up some cabosil and resin. I added this around the corners of the plug, and around the nickels to give them some strength, and eliminate sharp corners[*] Mixed up some more resin, and coated the plug and board with it. Then I put down a layer of 3/4 oz cloth and wetted it out.[*] Waited apx 45 min, then I then added some heavier cloth. I don't know what the weight is. I've had it for quite a while, with no packaging.[*] And again[*] And again.
[/ul]

So I stopped after three layers of the heavy cloth. Hopefully that'll be enough. When I get home from work today, it should be fully cured. Well see what happens. Although the room is apx 70 degrees, I left a small space heater in the room with the door closed to hopefully aid with the cureing process.

Lessons learned in this latest attempt:

Wait for the gap filling resing to fully cure before trying to cut/sand it level with the parting board.
You can never have too many gloves available for use..
Acetone rocks, but not in closed or non-ventilated spaces, can you say contact high? Also, the wife highly adapted from child rearing nose finds it very annoying.
Don't use the 206 hardner for small jobs, it takes waaaay too long to work with.
Wax and PVA the entire parting board, not just what you think you'll be using.

More to come ...

-Jorden
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Old 01-07-2008, 02:26 PM
  #44  
Ed Smith
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

I was too impatient, and didn't wait for the epoxy to fully cure, so I had some of it pull away in a thin area
Impatience will cause you more grief than anything else. If you feel that you have not got the time to do it right the first time where will the time come from to fix the screwups?



QUESTION: How long do you guys let your plugs stay in the mold, before you remove it? I've seen some posts/sites that remove the plug as soon as the resin hardens/cure. Others say that you should wait 3 days for epoxy resin. What Gives?
Epoxy is fairly stable as it cures, unlike polyester. At room temperature thick layups may take up to a week to cure where it will not distort, if at all. For fuselage molds I usually leave mine for a week or so after I have laid up the second half. For small parts like wheelpants usually 24 hrs is OK, if the epoxy is a 24hr epoxy. When you eventually make a fusdelage pop one out of the mold after a couple of days and tap it against the bench. You will hear a dull thud. Do the same thing a couple of weeks later and it will have a hollow ring to it.

QUESTION: I wasn't able to get back to my mold until after the tooling resin had fully cured. Do you guys think I'll have a problem with the additional layers?
No, just make sure the cloth is down on the gelcoat with no bubbles.

Ed S
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Old 01-07-2008, 02:47 PM
  #45  
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

wow....looking great! A whole lot better than my first attempt!

I really like the crayon for gap filling - neat idea.

Using polyester, I usually lay up a complete mold-half in one long session (respirator required!). The polyester gelcoat typically starts to gel firmly after one hour and I can start laying on glass. I glass the whole thing up from there and let the entire assembly cure.

The second type of fabric you are using looks like a 5oz or 6oz...pretty good weight for building bulk.

I can't wait to see the result - I'm particularly impatient at this point in a mold.
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Old 01-07-2008, 09:20 PM
  #46  
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

Ed S, thanks again as usual for your insight.

Jake, Thanks to you too for the info and compliment. I've been able to gather loads of info from the group and other sites around the web. You all have saved me time and money and frustration. Hopefully I can do you all proud!

I have plans in my head to do a completely composite 1/3 or 1/4 scale plane. Hopefully I'll get there!

-Jorden
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Old 01-08-2008, 08:47 AM
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

I have plans in my head to do a completely composite 1/3 or 1/4 scale plane. Hopefully I'll get there!
Now then, Now then, remember what I said about being impatient.

Ed S
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Old 01-08-2008, 02:07 PM
  #48  
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

Looks very nice,just a quick question, what purpose does the pva serve and is this applied before or after wax?
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Old 01-08-2008, 09:41 PM
  #49  
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions

OK, got home, and popped the layup off of the parting board. Used a sharpened putty knife, and just a little bit of encouragement, and success! One nickel did pull away from the parting board, but it was no big deal. It popped right out of the mold. A few passes through a bandsaw and I had the rough edges cleaned up.
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Old 01-08-2008, 09:59 PM
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JKEpps
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Default RE: A few newbie type questions


ORIGINAL: Ed Smith

I have plans in my head to do a completely composite 1/3 or 1/4 scale plane. Hopefully I'll get there!
Now then, Now then, remember what I said about being impatient.

Ed S
LOL, Ed. Yup I know. I give myself at least 2 years (yeah right, you should know me better by now) to have acquired enough skill and experience to tackle such a project. Famous last words!

-Jorden
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