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  1. #1

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    Classic vs Old Time vs Nostalgia


    Howdy y'all! Please don't anyone be upset with me but I need some help. I've posted this on another site's forum but I'm not comfortable that I understand the answer, or at least I don't think I understand satisfactorily. I'm looking for a solid definition of a "classic plane" i.e. Old Time, Nostalgia 30 as it pertains to scratchbuilt replicas of earlier designs? I've read the PAMPA rules and the AMA rules but I must have missed it and I couldn't find a settling definition. For example what category would a Ringmaster S-1 be .... how about a Bi-Slob ....or say a Novi III ....?? What about a design like the Ruffy or Skylark or even a scratchbuilt that has been "upgraded" i.e. scratchbuilt using more modern techniques and materials, how would it be classified??

    I ask this because I've scratchbuilt a Sig Banshee but I made foam cores for the wing then I scratchbuilt a Ringmaster S-1 variant but I goofed and cut the foam core backwards, that is the leading edge trails back and the trailing edge is straight (boy did I goof that setup!). Nevertheless I went ahead and sheeted the Ringmaster's wing and used it. It still flew just fine but it definately looks different from the original Ringmaster and my Banshee with its foam wing flies just fine and pulls like crazy with the OS 40FP providing the power.

    Second and worse yet, my biggest problem is that I built a model of a plane called the Novi III , a Dave Gieske design of the 60's, but I made some modifications; one of which is fairly significant. I made the canopy from a carved block of balsa vs forming one from plastic sheet, I built-up the lower cowl from balsa rather than fiberglass and finally I made the wing removable! I'm just not sure if that "unmakes" it Novi III, especially with the removable wing. From 5 feet I'm not sure anyone would really know the difference, but I sure would like to know the cutoff! I really would like to enter it in a stunt event, maybe Brodaks but I'd hate to be thrown out because it doesn't fit the classification. Can anyone make the definitive call??
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  2. #2

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    RE: Classic vs Old Time vs Nostalgia

    Hi Propa,
    I'll kick things off here by suggesting you try Stuka Stunt Forum for help. You're not the first to be befuddled. Rest assured there are answers to your questions. I'm notup on the rules myself.

    "Can anyone make the definitive call?? "
    The Contest Director of the contest you will enter is the one who will make the call that counts. But you probably knew that.

    Randy


  3. #3

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    RE: Classic vs Old Time vs Nostalgia

    Classic designs must be designed, published or kitted before Dec. 31 1969. Old Time airplanes can be flown in Classic since they are earlier yet . Nostalgia 30 airplanes must be designed published or kitted to be 30 yrs. old. A given design may not qualify for Nostalgia in 2013, but it could be 30 yrs old in 2014 for example and then it would qualify.

  4. #4
    Hossfly's Avatar
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    RE: Classic vs Old Time vs Nostalgia

    http://www.stunthanger.com/smf/

    Propa, This is a good forum, It has a very good format once you play with it just a tad.

    Answers are there, but read on....

    Gungadin stated it well. Unfortunately different folks seem to have different thoughts. PAMPA has one, and the Garden City Circle Burners ( this GCB from memory and may be wrong, but something like that, search on stunthanger...)

    The model needs to be a replica of the original, "replica" as whichever the CD so deemsl. I have a Stunt Stuka, supposedly a copy of Don Still's that I built some 15 years ago. As I read various "requirements" mine is not a true replica although built from one of the various 'replica' kits, at the moment I forget. So if you plan to compete in any specific contest I strongly advise you check with the CD before making the trip/s. Like R. Bush says, it will be the CD.

    I have CDed a specific RC event for 16 years. Entry has always been in the mid - 20s to 40+. Almost $4 a gal. for gas now brought the past one, 2-23-'13, to 13!!!!
    IMO the Old Time CL CDs need to get their stuff together or they might well have some ONE PERSON-ONLY parties!!
    Horrace Cain AMA L-93

    Peace is the brief glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.\" T. Jefferson

  5. #5

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    RE: Classic vs Old Time vs Nostalgia

    Guys, thanks so much for the replies. I've been on the StuntHangar site; as a matter of fact it's where I first posted and the responses were very good, just not very comforting. I guess I'm just going to have to "take my chances" though when it comes to entering my variant Novi III and Banshee. What's interesting, given the fact that the plans for the Novi III were first published in Feb 68, that would make it over 40 years old and should qualify for either the Classic or Nostalgia 30 categories but not the OTS because of the 1952 cutoff date. Would this be a correct interpretation?? I have no idea where the Banshee would qualify.

    From what I've gleened from the responses, as Hossfly stated, "The model needs to be a replica of the original, "replica" as whichever the CD so deemsl .... As I read various "requirements" mine is not a true replica although built from one of the various 'replica' kits ....".

    Guess I'm in the same fix because mine isn't a true replica either and from the various responses, I guess the CD will be the only decision maker. Oh well, if I get thrown out .... so be it!! At least I had fun butcherin' some balsa, L.O.L.!!

  6. #6

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    RE: Classic vs Old Time vs Nostalgia

    You ought to go to the Brodak fly-in with both airplanes. I'm certain you can enter the Banshee in the "Profile" class at least. The CD is a good guy and I don't think he would object to your Novi in Classic. I can't speak for him. Anyhow you could probably fly it in Nostalgia. Also it may matter slightly as to what class flyer you are. Would you be entering in Beginner, Intermediate or possibly a higher class. Reason I ask is my first ever control line stunt contest was at Brodak and my airplane was a slightly modified Magician. But I entered the Beginner class, and no one cared that it had been slightly modified. The CD said probably no one would object unless I came in first place, which I didn't. So I had a ball flying my first ever Stunt contest. I encourage you to do the same.

  7. #7

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    RE: Classic vs Old Time vs Nostalgia

    Hello propa,
    There is a really simple way to deal with the problem every time you have a specific contest in mind. Back when I CD'd stunt, my telephone rang a couple of times a week, more as the date approached. Call and ask the CD. He will be more than happy to hear you're coming to the contest and will understand completely your wanting to be clear on those issues.
    Good flying wit ya today

  8. #8

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    RE: Classic vs Old Time vs Nostalgia

    Thanks. I appreciate the response. Although I've toyed around with c/l for a number of years but even at 64 years old, I suppose I'm still a beginner as I've never really tried focusing on stunt flying according to the established pattern and I crash almost as good as I fly! LOL!!

  9. #9

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    RE: Classic vs Old Time vs Nostalgia

    Propa,

    I will try to help a bit. My apologies if it is not correct. Most of it is from reading posts over the years.

    Old Tyme Stunt (OTS) was started by the Garden State Circle Burners (GSCB) in New Jersey (the Garden State). The intent was to get the flavor of planes kitted or published before Dec 31, 1952. The date was picked because after then there were increases in performance. For instance most planes did not have flaps before then. The Ringmaster S1 was a very popular plane at the time and is still a good competitor. The Ringmaster was updated in the sixties to replace the solid LE with a sheeted LE. Since that change was after the cutoff date, it was originally not allowed. You originally were not allowed to change anything external, only internal for safety. Then rules loosened up a bit and mine had adjustable leadouts and tip weight. I think yours exceeds those limits. Again, check with the CD. The challenge for many is to come up with an obscure plane with period power.

    The next cutoff date (12/31/69) was for Classic. Again, after that date came advances in construction and power. The idea was to put flyers on an equal footing as far as airplane capabilities. As someone mentioned you can use an OTS ship in Classic but a Classic ship can not compete in OTS.

    The Ruffy and Skylark are Classic.

    Hope this helps a bit.

    George

  10. #10

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    RE: Classic vs Old Time vs Nostalgia

    Thank you for your response. It's most informative. As written, when one doesn't know the history, we're doomed to repeat it. I believe you're correct, I may have exceeded the limits with both my Novi III and my Banshee. Guess the best thing for me is to go ahead and sell these an build more authentic birds! Anyone interested in a couple of kool but illegal replica stunt ships??

  11. #11

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    RE: Classic vs Old Time vs Nostalgia

    You can always designate those ships as "pracitce" ships while you build new ones.

    George

  12. #12

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    RE: Classic vs Old Time vs Nostalgia

    Yeah! I s'pose! I really need to get rid of some though. My "addiction" is building!! I've got a lot of them, all ready to fly too; plus I do custom building for folks!!

  13. #13

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    RE: Classic vs Old Time vs Nostalgia

    Remember, you can fly any plane you want in AMA Stunt.

  14. #14
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    RE: Classic vs Old Time vs Nostalgia


    ORIGINAL: Propa


    Howdy y'all! Please don't anyone be upset with me but I need some help. I've posted this on another site's forum but I'm not comfortable that I understand the answer, or at least I don't think I understand satisfactorily. I'm looking for a solid definition of a "classic plane" i.e. Old Time, Nostalgia 30 as it pertains to scratchbuilt replicas of earlier designs? I've read the PAMPA rules and the AMA rules but I must have missed it and I couldn't find a settling definition. For example what category would a Ringmaster S-1 be .... how about a Bi-Slob ....or say a Novi III ....?? What about a design like the Ruffy or Skylark or even a scratchbuilt that has been "upgraded" i.e. scratchbuilt using more modern techniques and materials, how would it be classified??

    I ask this because I've scratchbuilt a Sig Banshee but I made foam cores for the wing then I scratchbuilt a Ringmaster S-1 variant but I goofed and cut the foam core backwards, that is the leading edge trails back and the trailing edge is straight (boy did I goof that setup!). Nevertheless I went ahead and sheeted the Ringmaster's wing and used it. It still flew just fine but it definately looks different from the original Ringmaster and my Banshee with its foam wing flies just fine and pulls like crazy with the OS 40FP providing the power.

    Second and worse yet, my biggest problem is that I built a model of a plane called the Novi III , a Dave Gieske design of the 60's, but I made some modifications; one of which is fairly significant. I made the canopy from a carved block of balsa vs forming one from plastic sheet, I built-up the lower cowl from balsa rather than fiberglass and finally I made the wing removable! I'm just not sure if that "unmakes" it Novi III, especially with the removable wing. From 5 feet I'm not sure anyone would really know the difference, but I sure would like to know the cutoff! I really would like to enter it in a stunt event, maybe Brodaks but I'd hate to be thrown out because it doesn't fit the classification. Can anyone make the definitive call??
    Your Novi III is a Classic design. Dave Gierke designed and flew the model at the 1967 Nationals. It is legal and always will be legal as a Classic model. Your mods are not disqualifying.
    Since you built the model yourself, you can fly your model in Open Nationals competition, any PAMPA class contests with full appearance points, if offered. AMA/PAMPA Stunt has no design limitations.
    Old Time cut off is Dec 31, 1952 as described by some other posters here, and the models cannot be modified. Your S-1 Ringmaster is no longer an S-1 Ringmaster and is not legal. Bi-Slob is a modern design, Banshee is a modern design.
    Ruffy and Skylark are Classics, cut-off is last day of '69. Classics that had fully sheeted wings are not penalized for construction type, if it had a built up wing and foam is used it's okay. If you change the planform of the wing like you did on the Ringmaster, the CD will probably access a penalty to the appearance points. Or not, usually guys are trying to include participants so they may just give you some razz and welcome you aboard.
    As it is, your Novi looks great, and I'm kind of an originating member of the Classic event. Plus i know Dave and saw the original fly at the Nats. Thanks for the cool pictures.
    Chris...



  15. #15

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    RE: Classic vs Old Time vs Nostalgia

    THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU! I like your answer and I've save a copy for future reference. I'm finally getting comfortable flying my purple Novi 111. I've been so nervous everythime I fire it up. I guess it's because I've poured so much time and effort in building it.


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