minny minoza

Though I've flown lots and lots of planes, I'm just getting back into it again after a nearly 30-year hiatus--and I realize, I've never really mastered any flying skills. Never had any instruction whatsoever from a vet; just went out and flew on my own--with buddies like myself who'd never had any instruction, either.

Used to fly combat planes, in the mid-70's--though I never actually flew IN combat--I just loved the style and speed of this kind of plane.

Just been reading what I can find, about not flexing the wrist, but just holding your wrist firm and pointing your arm where you want the plane to go.

See how this would work for, say, an outside loop--but what about an inside loop? (Used to always crash whenever I tried an inside loop).

So, do you do your flexing at the elbow?

(If there's a basic beginners' list or how-to y'all could point me to, I'd be grateful).

Thanx heaps, y'all, for your attention,
M

fox4evr

Welcome back Minny, Not quite sure about your inside and outside manuvers. Lets get this correct. Inside is with canopy towards the center of the loop, outside is canopy away from the center. It was always easier, for me anyway, to do the insides. I fly with my elbow slightly bent most of the time. I find it necessary to flex my wrist for just about all manuvers. I try to trace the pattern with my handle/hand/arm, while doing each one. The way started doing the outside loops was out of a figure eight. Just make sure you altitude is high enough. I usually build in way more control than is needed for manuvers, but that is my safety margin. haha Many a time I have had close calls with tera firma and the panic up or down has saved my planes.
I am sure there will be better thoughts, but thats how I relearned.
Lee TGD

2BFlying

Welcome back

I started practicing my outside loops from the inverted position. ( to me it's really an inside loop while going the other direction). But fox4evr is right , canopy to the outside of the loop, outside loop.

By doing the outside loop from the inverted position, I make a large loop for the first couple of times just to get an idea of the turning radius. Once I felt comfortable with the loop from the inverted position I would fly normal rotation, get some height and go for the outside loop. It is hard to take your brand new creation and dive toward the ground. I don't know how far off the ground the competition rules say is good for the bottom of a loop, but for me as long as you don't HIT the ground it's a good loop.

I always heard that an inch was as good as a mile.

kdheath

There are as many ways to do this as...But after a lot of reading, watching other people fly, and making a number of costly mistakes, I think this is generally the best way:

If you have little or no experience, use the straight arm/stiff wrist method until you're comfortable taking off, flying around, putting the plane at the altitude you want, not panicking anymore, etc.

Most good stunt flyers hold their hand vertical, with the elbow bent as much as 90 degrees, and the hand centered in front of the chest. Always follow the plane with your hand through the maneuvers.

A high priority is to get comfortable with inverted flight if you haven't already.

RW, the rule book says 5 feet for level flight and all bottoms. Here's a link to a good description of the modern pattern:

http://www.clstunt.com/pattern.htm

I'm having a lot of fun dealing with the challenge of the pattern. Pretty good at the rounds, the squares are next on the agenda. This is not an easy thing to do really well.

One more thing while I'm thinking about it. Go to this link and print out this article by Art Adamisin. Art is one of the grand old men of Stunt, judge, teacher and flyer. Great advice. Awesome thing is that it is free.

http://www.netax.sk/hexoft/stunt/tips.htm

Then if CLPA turns you on, go to the PAMPA web site and order "The Stunt Book" by Dave Cook, for all the gory details. Even if you never compete, practicing the pattern will sure make you a better flyer.

Kelvin

minny minoza

See? I don't even know the correct terminology!

"Outside" loop is, of course, the maneuver I meant that I always crashed when I tried. (Diving the plane and hoping it would go on under and turn back up before it struck the ground).

Thanx a meg, guy, for your prompt and thoughtful response to my query.

minny minoza

Kelvin--and the rest of you: these responses are so helpful--and so indicative of what a novice I am, for all my flights.

I've NEVER gotten comfortable with inverted flight. All these basic things I've never mastered . . .

The kool thing is, I get to FLY while I'm learning.

For all your help, I'm grateful.

Best,
M

2BFlying

I have never had a problem with inverted flight and really enjoy doing it. But you have to think and stay on top of what you are doing. I just hope my Twister will fly as good as my old planes. It will be a different experience, as this is a flapped bird and almost all my experience was with non-flapped planes.

Everything is ready except the weather. Can't fly any during the week right now. We're so busy at work (I start at 4:30 PM) that I'm usually here until 4 in the morning. Sleeep the rest of the day. Get up and do it again.

I'll check out kd's websites he suggested.

telmore

An outside loop from upright is (in my book) called a bunt!

I think that your supposedto have progressed from the 'rigid wrist' approach by the time you try your first loop - the rigid wrist is only really good for initial flights and climbing/diving/mild wingover stage.

Tony

fox4evr

Seems that when I am flying inverted, my hand/lhandle, is always rotated to the right, with top of handle going with the plane. Tryed to correct this, but it just seems comfortable for me. Also I have found that if I can lead the plane a little with the handle I have a more stable altitude. I was found that if I follow the plane(inverted) it tends to climb.
Lee TGD

gcb

M,

After you get past the stiff arm phase you will probably find a position for your arm that feels best for you. At that time you may need to consider "bias" in the handle setup. If you hold a handle with your wrist positioned for equal movement up and down, note that the handle is not vertical but tilted forward. If you fly with your arm straight out, you will need to adjust your handle so it is tilted to match your wrist movements so you have equal movement up and down. If you hold your arm with some bend at the elbow, and your wrist at chest height, you may find that the handle is now vertical with your wrist positioned for equal movement. I recommend the bent elbow, but find what works best for you.
I was taught to fly inverted with my wrist palm up. Experts say this is wrong and limits your movement. I would suggest learning to keep your wrist the same in both upright and inverted flight. As mentioned previously, it is a hard habit to change.

George

Edit: Some learn to fly inverted after inside loops by learning to do "lazy eights". You start an inside loop and, as you are going down, give it down elevator as if you were doing an outside loop and fly it around for part of an outside loop, then bring it out to level (upright) flight. As you learn these, extend the inverted part where you go into an outside loop until you do a lap or so before returning to upright.

kdheath

George, excellent thoughts on the handle and lazy-8 themes. The lazy-8 has worked well for me to learn inverted flight. My mentor also taught me to chant to myself, "Down is up" while inverted. He's flown for years and still says that to himself once in a while. Sounds flaky, but it was the last ingredient that stopped me from crashing out of inverted.

Another item that doesn't get a lot of play is the type of handle you use and how it is set up. I have an excellent how-andwhy sheet that Ted Fancher put together with the handles that he designed and sold. (Carl Shoup has them now.) If anyone wants a copy, e-mail or PM me an address and I'll send you a copy. Changing handles improved my flying about 1000% in one jump. I had something that just didn't work with my hand and wrist.

downunder

The "locked wrist" is only good for learning to fly level and then mild climbs and dives because the model will want to go where your arm is pointed. Don't EVER try it for inverted flight though

Once you're confident with that then you can start moving your wrist a little and you'll soon find out how much more quickly the model responds but even then, keep your arm pointing towards the model so it's only wrist movement giving the control. I wouldn't advise even doing a loop with a locked wrist because you need to follow the model with your arm while using the wrist for control.

There's a couple of ways to approach doing your first few outside loops. It's all about getting confidence in the model to do them but in general an outside loop will be done in about the same size as an inside loop unless the controls are really out of whack. You can start one by flying quite high then easing in down control with your wrist and following the model with your arm so you keep the same amount of elevator movement. The only thing to remember is DON'T CHANGE YOUR MIND...keep that down elevator until it's come back around to the top then level out. Another way to do the first outside loop is to come over in a wingover and after it's gone past the top start the loop. Once again, DON'T CHANGE YOUR MIND!

Once you've done a couple of outside loops you'll be quite confident the model will do them so then progress to the lazy eight. This is a great manoeuvre for a few reasons. One is that you don't get twists in your lines so you can do them over and over. Another is that you can start experimenting making the part loop each side larger and larger instead of banging in full up or down. After doing a few of them it starts to become automatic that after the "up" control you know you give "down" and this is when you can start extending the inverted part of the eight by flattening it out a little with a small amount of that automatic "down" you know you have to give. If you get worried then just complete that automatic "down" control (and it doesn't hurt to keep saying in your head "down down down").

When you progress to lazy eights don't think about how you hold the handle when you're giving that down control. Just feel comfortable and the handle position will take care of itself. More than likely you'll find you roll your hand over palm up when inverted which I find to be the safest anyway. Others will disagree but to me it's an automatic cue that the controls are reversed and it's not necessary to consciously think about what you're doing.

Jim Thomerson

I havn't tried this, but this seems a good way to learn to fly inverted. Make a whip-control-type airplane: no engine, but with full set of controls, bellcrank, lines, handle. Make the lines about 8 feet long. Now swing the thing around and get it flying, then loop it over upside down and fly it around inverted. Do this over grass until you can actually do it. Cheap and realatively easy, I would think.

Jim

minny minoza

Wondering if my failure at every attempt at an outside loop was due to the fact that I was trying it with the wrong plane . . .

(That's it, blame the plane, and not the pilot!).

But seriously, it was a plane with an asymmetrical built-up wing. I've got plenty of symmetrical wing planes--but my previous failures have made me chicken to dive them towards the ground.

The former plane was all lift on the wing, and it would do inside loops till the lines were twisted into a single strand--but whenever I tried full down elevator--with what I'd assumed was adequate alititude--it just dove straight into the ground.

(I'd show a pic of the wing--but I ain't quite figured out how to do attachments here).

Plane only took three of these dive crashes before it disintegrated. (Last crash even sent up a little poof of smoke; quite dramatic).

kdheath

I take it the plane had a flat-bottomed wing? Yep, them won't turn at all well in the outside direction or fly inverted very well.

Jim Thomerson, of course, is his usual pragmatic self with the whip airplane idea. Absolutely a great, low price idea. But I figure if I spent a year building a plane and then crashed it three weeekends in a row while trying to learn to fly inverted, then everyone else should too....

"I've heard daytime temperatures in Arizona can rise to 120 degrees."

"Yeah, but it's a DRY heat . . . "

jehold66203

Didn't get his name, but, someone was flying a whip control plane at VSC this year. Not in competition naturally, but, was just demonstrating its capabilities. He was doing loops, eights and inverted laps. -DOC Holliday

kdheath

Doc. there was an item in Stunt News not too long ago about whip control. Was that by Barney Hedge?

minny minoza

Kool advice. And that not-changing-your-mind bit is too right. In for a penny. (How many times have I piled one up out of panic, when nature would have taken its course and kept the plane aloft).
My sense, from your advice, is that it's a lot like learning to drive a car or ride a bike: a NO MIND kind of thing. It's the body that has to learn. Thanx, downunder, for your response. And I recognize your EMU. (I'm roger ingersoll, over at rcGroups).

Clean

Blackhawk models has some whip control planes http://www.blackhawkmodels.com/

downunder

Hey Roger
You're exactly right in that it's the body that learns what to do. Same as playing a musical instrument or driving a car you don't have to think about what to do. It just takes practise but it's kinda fun when it happens. Sometimes when I'm doing the pattern I'll have to consciously think back to figure out what manoeuvre I just did so I can prepare for the next one. All that's needed then is to know what the next one is and decide exactly where it's going to start, the rest just happens. In squares I'll just wait until it gets to where I want to turn and say NOW to myself.

Many years ago a mate videoed me doing the pattern and at one time he zoomed in on my hand doing the square eight. I had no idea my hand made such complicated movements. The next time I flew I decided to glance at my hand to see it for myself. Here's another tip. DON'T DO THAT!!!!

minny minoza

Yeah, Larry's a straight up guy. He actually sent me his paper catalog, and I was looking at it, after the mention here of whip models.

And he still has you order by mail. Something kinda kool-retro about that.

One thing I'm curious about: he indicates that one uses a fishing rod to whip the model--yet his skyhawk (or whatever he calls his combat whip model) comes with control line and handle.

Anybody know wassup with that?

Should e- him, I s'pose . . .

kdheath

You whip the plane with the pole in the left hand and control the model via the lines in the right hand.

Good advice, not to start a maneuver until you've thought through what you're going to do.......

mikeboyd

Mr. Heath, thanks so much for the terrific links. I had been looking for a site with a good description of the AMA stunt pattern. This looks like the exact pattern I flew in the 60's as a junior. Do you know if it is also the same as what they are calling the classic pattern, now?

I, too am getting back into CL after over 30 years. Still very active in RC, but the old yearnings to feel the tug of the plane on the arm is still there.

We're having a CL contest this weekend (weather man threatening to ruin it) at the Air Force Auxiliary Field in Sequin, Tx. It is sponsored by Tri-City flyers. Combat on Saturday (9 April) and Stunt on Sunday. I have a Nobler with an FP .40 I haven't flown yet, so may go Saturday to test fly and practice with some of the aces out there. Then watch on Sunday, unless I really do well on Saturday, don't crash the new (cheery) Nobler, then I might compete for the practice.

Keep up the great information! Thanks again. [email protected]

Jim Thomerson

Yes the "modern" pattern has been the same since 1957. The modern pattern is used for classic. I figure on being at Seguin on Sunday and may or may not fly classic, depending on whether I have time to get my classic airplane sorted out beforehand. Plan to fly Old Time Stunt for sure. See you there.

Jim

kdheath

Hi Mike, that's neat that there is CL at Seguin again. I was there in 1981 watching the Nationals. Got to examine Gene Martine's 20 point finish stunter and see lots of good flying. My then girlfriend had never been to a model contest and was almost as fascinated as I was. We ignored RC entirely and spent three days watching CL and FF.

As Jim pointed out, Classic uses the same pattern as CL Precision Aerobatics. This is essentially the same pattern that George Aldrich laid out in '57. Then there is the Old Time Stunt pattern which is to the 1951 rules, IIRC, and a simplfied beginner pattern. Only CLPA is an AMA event. The rest are run by PAMPA.

Speaking of links, here is the main one everyone should have. Almost everything of any interest to stunt flyers is there:

http://home.att.net/~philbrown36641s5/clhomepage.html

Welcome back-it is really a great time to do stunt!
Kelvin