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Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

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Old 07-16-2011, 06:04 AM
  #76
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

Looking at the vid it looks like the fail safe kicked in because the engine shut down? am I correct on this? If the fails safe worked it would be pretty good guess the the RX battery was still doing its job.
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Old 07-16-2011, 07:07 AM
  #77
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

The engine actually revved up, went to idle, revved up again, went to idle again, and then the plane nosed down steeper and went into the ground.

The Rx was blinking the next day, indicating a brown out.

Could it be the battery voltage dipped low, came back up, dipped low, came back up, and then finally dipped low and stayed low? All within a second or two?

We will never know the answer.

As for the battery, I tested it with an Expanded Scale Voltmeter by Craft-Air, which is an old skool instrument that applies a 'typical' 4 servo load to the battery. While that was attached, I worked three servos back and forth to full travel for five minutes observing the voltage on my VOM and could not get the battery voltage to drop more than 1/10th volt.
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Old 07-16-2011, 07:12 AM
  #78
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

Probably some strange form of Fail Safe going on there.
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Old 07-16-2011, 07:13 AM
  #79
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

I joined this thread late because I usually hang out in Extreme Speed Prop Planes. I see a lot of people have chimed in about batteries, but some have missed the point. First, and most important, NiMh have the same memory problems as nicads. Any cell with a Nickel anode has this memory problem. You MUST cycle your batteries. Imade an inexpensive batttery load tester, and use it between flights to test batteries under load between flights.
Take an old servo extension and cut one end off to make a lead that will plug into your charge lead on the switch. Attach some wire to it and put on banana plugs that fit a voltmeter. A foot or so is usually enough. Take 2 10 Ohm 10 Watt resistors in series and short them across the leads.(Use the resistors to connect the + to the - wire) This gives about 350ma at 5v. Charge the battery and plug in the load lead to discharge. Connect your volt meter to measure voltage under load while it is discharging. I graph my batteries at 5 or 10 minute intervals depending on capacity to see when the battery begins to fall off. Then all you need to do is load test between flights to see where you are onthe graph. This will tell you how much capacity you have left. When you get home, plug it in and discharge. Get an inexpensive charge jack mount and mount it in an accessible location on the plane, usually opposite the exhaust mess.

Hope this helps

Scott
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Old 07-16-2011, 07:31 AM
  #80
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

Recap

1 Test out radio equipment in disposable plane. "box fuselage with strait constant cord wings powered by a small glow engine" 4*60 meets that one so you where safe from the start!

2 Cycle batteries to bring them up to speed or replaced

3 Insulate fragile radio equipment like receivers from vibration.

4 Range test new equipment. Especially cheap receivers.

5 When running Spectrum revivers use satellite receivers to increase signal angles of the model.


Controversial points
1 Don't use cheap knock off receivers use Futabas.
2 Bla Futabas suck use JR.
3 Are you guys nut Spectrums invented spread spectrum receivers use them!
4 Don't listen to them use Hitec
5 Futaba, JR, and Spectrum guys ^ LOL @ Hitec
6 JR's rule just feel this radio
7 Dude are you some kind of perv? I not feeling your radio!





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Old 07-16-2011, 12:38 PM
  #81
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

Hahahahaha!
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Old 07-16-2011, 02:02 PM
  #82
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

This is a real good reason to not believe everything one reads on the internet.

Quote:
ORIGINAL: RCER88

I use 13.00 receivers in gas airplanes. That BS of you get what you pay for is complete hogwash in todays market. Reliability and crash percentage per flight on the radio is what important. That is how you prove how reliable a radio ACTUALLY is. Not the advertising or alleged hype or price tag.

I am using HK v1 module in a Turnigy 9x with six and eight channel receivers. Assan and Frsky in a Flysky 9x. You know what I have a superior crash/flight percentage with my inexpensive radios as I do with my Futabas. So don't bash what you have never used. I have not had a single radio related failure in flight with over 600 flights on those radios. My Futubas are far worse. I have six in 650 with my futaba. I prefer my inexpensive 9x over the high dollar futaba. I know my inexpensive radios work with good reliability.

To the OP even with a 5 cell pack if one cell falls off under load it could "brown out" thus causing your problem. Batteries are the most important thing in your plane if not properly maintained you will lose your plane. I seriously doubt the receiver is at fault in this instance. You admitted you did not properly care for your battery pack. NIMH if not used for awhile will have to be cycled four to five times because they WILL lose capacity if you don't. I recently bought new NIMH packs and had to cycle each one five times to get them to come up to capacity. The data sheet the seller sent with the batteries informed me of that fact. It confirmed a suspicion I had for many years. Cycling your batteries is a very good idea. You can monitor the battery that way. You KNOW when a battery is questionable and pull it out of service before YOU crash.

A good ground load test is move both sticks all the way to the corners and hold it for sixty seconds. listen to the servos if the sound changes after forty five seconds your battery can not handle the load the servos are drawing. In many cases the servos when all working at the same time are drawing more power thus causing a voltage drop and a possible "brown out." I use this technique and discovered questionable batteries. Then when cycled found a bad pack in many cases the pack came back up after five cycles and was fine. Battery care is IMPORTANT.

Good luck.
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Old 07-16-2011, 04:08 PM
  #83
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

Interesting that the engine revved up and down Kmot. With some electric airplanes (equipped with speed controls) this is usually a sign that the battery voltage is getting low or close to the cut off point. Possibly that receiver has some built in circuitry to detect voltage and fluctuate the throttle as an indicator? If the battery was old and not cycled properly it could have gone below that point hence the brownout. Just a thought....

Nice that Sig have a fuse kit available, they are my favorite kit manufacturer!
If you ever think of building another kit from them consider the Astro Hog (build with 1/2 dyhedral), its a sweet and relaxing flyer and fun to build!

Dave

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Kmot

The engine actually revved up, went to idle, revved up again, went to idle again, and then the plane nosed down steeper and went into the ground.

The Rx was blinking the next day, indicating a brown out.

Could it be the battery voltage dipped low, came back up, dipped low, came back up, and then finally dipped low and stayed low? All within a second or two?

We will never know the answer.

As for the battery, I tested it with an Expanded Scale Voltmeter by Craft-Air, which is an old skool instrument that applies a 'typical' 4 servo load to the battery. While that was attached, I worked three servos back and forth to full travel for five minutes observing the voltage on my VOM and could not get the battery voltage to drop more than 1/10th volt.
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Old 07-16-2011, 05:47 PM
  #84
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

Tom, sorry to hear about your 4*60 but just wanted to say that you have a lovely wife who is so supportive. Does she fly too?
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Old 07-16-2011, 09:04 PM
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

Thanks for the compliment Mike. Holly is awesome, and puts up with all my hobby junk. No, she does not do any hobby stuff herself but she has on occasion when I asked her, come out to film for me.
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Old 07-16-2011, 10:14 PM
  #86
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

Quote:
ORIGINAL: pmerritt

This is a real good reason to not believe everything one reads on the internet.

Quote:
ORIGINAL: RCER88

I use 13.00 receivers in gas airplanes. That BS of you get what you pay for is complete hogwash in todays market. Reliability and crash percentage per flight on the radio is what important. That is how you prove how reliable a radio ACTUALLY is. Not the advertising or alleged hype or price tag.

I am using HK v1 module in a Turnigy 9x with six and eight channel receivers. Assan and Frsky in a Flysky 9x. You know what I have a superior crash/flight percentage with my inexpensive radios as I do with my Futabas. So don't bash what you have never used. I have not had a single radio related failure in flight with over 600 flights on those radios. My Futubas are far worse. I have six in 650 with my futaba. I prefer my inexpensive 9x over the high dollar futaba. I know my inexpensive radios work with good reliability.

To the OP even with a 5 cell pack if one cell falls off under load it could ''brown out'' thus causing your problem. Batteries are the most important thing in your plane if not properly maintained you will lose your plane. I seriously doubt the receiver is at fault in this instance. You admitted you did not properly care for your battery pack. NIMH if not used for awhile will have to be cycled four to five times because they WILL lose capacity if you don't. I recently bought new NIMH packs and had to cycle each one five times to get them to come up to capacity. The data sheet the seller sent with the batteries informed me of that fact. It confirmed a suspicion I had for many years. Cycling your batteries is a very good idea. You can monitor the battery that way. You KNOW when a battery is questionable and pull it out of service before YOU crash.

A good ground load test is move both sticks all the way to the corners and hold it for sixty seconds. listen to the servos if the sound changes after forty five seconds your battery can not handle the load the servos are drawing. In many cases the servos when all working at the same time are drawing more power thus causing a voltage drop and a possible ''brown out.'' I use this technique and discovered questionable batteries. Then when cycled found a bad pack in many cases the pack came back up after five cycles and was fine. Battery care is IMPORTANT.

Good luck.

My post is accurate and truthful. I have been flying the Turnigy 9x radio for over 3 years now. I have been flying the Flysky starting this year. I was at the field today and flew my 116 inch Davis D1w. Quadra 35 powered gas engine plane on that radio with a $14.00 eight channel receiver and it has many flights on it now. I started flying it last year. A picture of it is on my pages. I also flew a Sig Kougar and small pattern plane called the Gnat with that same radio today It was beautiful today here in Michigan. SO how dare you say what you did about me.

Just because you cannot believe that there are radios out there that work just as good or better than a high dollar radio does not make me a liar or uniformed. I have been in the hobby for over twenty two years now. I went through the switch from AM to FM and suffered the wrath of a bad batch of receivers and radios then too. I do my homework and research. Nothing in my post is inaccurate.

Additionally I am not brainwashed to advertising hype of the overpriced stuff the "big names" want me to buy and put the reliability of my 9x against your radio any day of the week. Just because I have chosen to learn much more than is required and take a simple risk with something new and unheard of by many other modelers does not make me a liar. It makes me enlightened and cutting edge. I test EVERY new radio and receiver in a old beat up glider I have so that I KNOW it will at least past range checks and simple flight commands before I install in a better airplane. I KNOW what I am doing. I am VERY safety oriented and take every precaution.

I do not know everything and will be the first one to admit it. But my experience and knowledge is gathered through careful research and "on the flightline" experience. I try to pass some of that on if it saves someones airplane or enlightens them to the fact that you do have OPTIONS besides the normal BS. I feel good about it. I get many messages asking me about other advice I have given in these forums and others. This is a hobby and everybody does things a little different.


Come to Michigan I will gladly take a bunch of different airplanes out and fly them on either my Turnigy or Flysky 9x radios. I get many positive comments at the airshows I attend because Not many people have even seen that radio.

See I KNOW the difference. I fly almost everyday and easily flown as many as ten flights in a day on different airplanes. I have easily topped 600 flights in 3 years. I have almost one hundred on the Flysky already. I fly a glow corsair on the flysky and have small EDF F4 I have flown as many as five times in a few hours at the field. I have five batteries for it. Another gas powered corsair will be off the boards soon and will be flown on the flysky with a Assan 9 channel receiver. That is an expensive one $31.00.


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Old 07-18-2011, 09:29 PM
  #87
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

Quote:
ORIGINAL: jaav

Jeezz Just about every Name brand system I see is made in China...

some orange receivers are more reliable than others [8D]
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Old 07-19-2011, 03:21 AM
  #88
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

I have 4 plane on my X9 V1 and havent lost a bird due to radio failure..

If you guys have a look at the Hobby King forum there is a running issue regarding the X9.
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Old 07-19-2011, 08:20 AM
  #89
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

RCER88,

When Isaw that post from pmerritt you replied to, my first reaction was 'what a dumby'. If Ihad to guess, that poster is affiliated somehow with a Futaba or JRdistributor or salesman of some kind. Sure the Hobby King knock-off's are hit and miss for quality, and there is a bad on in every bunch.. but same goes for any electronic made, no matter what the brand name (or lack of)

If your going to use knock-off equipment, make damn sure its compatible with the name brand stuff your mixing it with, and inspect the gear more often. Range check your $8 receivers every so often, check your batteries every flight or other, etc..

Ihave not used any cheap hobby king style receivers or other yet, but Isee people around me every day at the field with them, and I've yet to see one become the focus point of a disaster (at least beyond a ground test). It WILLhappen, but at the same time, it WILLhappen with a JRor Futaba receiver too, period.

Generally, from my 25+ years in the hobby, equipment is only as good as the operator that uses it.
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Old 07-19-2011, 09:20 AM
  #90
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

I completely agree. I range check before every session. Check the battery level before EACH flight and check my surfaces and radio to insure it is on the plane I am flying.

Every time you fly you risk your plane. I had a Sig Mess Electric setup started its third season this year and the BEC failed in flight. The plane went down and imploded. Radio at fault no way. We heard the capacitor pop. It was obvious. The receiver is now in another airplane and doing fine.

Crashes happen. But if you practice safe procedures, preflight your plane for each flight you can have years of enjoyment and suffer no problems.

It doesn't matter if you have a $5000.00 receiver or a $5.00 receiver. Every plane has an expiration date, you can prolong the date by being safe. Maintain your batteries and do the checks.

Turnigy and Flysky radios are built in the same factory as JR according to the research I have done. So if it is made in the same factory more than likely it uses many of the same components.

I am also disabled and on a budget. So I use what my research dictates that I can afford. I have had excellent results with my Turnigy and Flysky radios. Some people do not like my choices because they feel foolish that I spent a fraction of what they did on a radio that does a very good job.

In many cases your reference to "Knock offs" are just items built that do not have a huge advertising budget. There is nothing wrong with the items and in many cases as good as its expensive counterparts. Many years ago hitec did not even exist. Now it is among the big names.

Case in point. I bought a bunch of "knock off" servos at $1.99 a piece. I opened one up and compared it to a High dollar servo I bought at my LHS they were identical on the inside. Gear sets were interchangeable. The only thing different was the sticker on the outside. So why spend $16.50 for one servo when I can buy eight? To me that is a no brainer. And my "knock off" servo is still going the $16.50 big name servo failed a ground test after just a few flights.

Sure using "knock off" equipment can be a gamble. But so is flying an airplane with a "brand name" system. So I don't have a huge investment. But I sure can have a bunch of fun. I am less worried if a plane goes down thus I can enjoy myself more. I can then spend more for airframes. Because I know I can get good components at a fair price. Instead of paying a companies huge advertising budget because of a huge markup of the price.

I feel better when I buy a $1.99 servo when I know it is the same on the inside as a $16.50 name brand. I know the item is as good as its expensive counterpart.
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Old 07-19-2011, 02:09 PM
  #91
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

I performed some tests today. All are inconclusive. The battery pack is made by Tenergy, and it is a 6V 2300 mAh NiMh.

First, the battery has sat for one week now. It should have self discharged at least a little. I put it on my Triton 2 and set it up for a discharge rate of 1 Amp and to bring it down to 3.8 Volts, the threshold the Rx is supposed to brown out at. It took 1 hour, 4 minutes, and 49 seconds to discharge and it removed 1080 mAh from the battery doing so. The Avg. discharge voltage was 5.63V

Next, on the freshly discharged battery I performed the following on the battery:

#1: I did RCER88's battery load test. I even went more extreme, holding it in the full travel positions for 5 minutes instead of 1. Then after that, I went even more extreme by holding one of the servos arms against the bench, forcing the servo into a full stall condition and I held it there for 2 minutes. The Rx never browned out and the battery did not go weak.

#2: I banged the Rx against the benchtop rapidly, to see if it had a bad solder joint that would show up under vibration or shock. Nothing happened.

#3: I banged the on/off switch the same way. Nothing happened.

After all this, I removed the Rx from its plastic case and inspected it with magnifying glasses to look for any obvious defects and nothing can be found broken. One thing is clear, this Rx is assembled by robots exactly the same as other electronic components today are assembled.

I don't think any of the HARDWARE is defective. I am now wondering about the SOFTWARE the Rx is programmed with.
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Old 07-19-2011, 02:49 PM
  #92
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

That sounds like some fairly thorough testing of the battery at least. It is also a fair test of the radio equipment, while the vibrations of a nitro engine turning 20,000-30,000 RPM can be difficult, if not impossible to replicate and may expose faults that can not be repeated on the bench. However I would also be fairly confident in the results of the testing and would not hesitate to reuse the radio equipment in the next plane. Sometimes planes crash, and even the NTSB doesn't figure them all out.
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Old 07-19-2011, 04:38 PM
  #93
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

Well, one thing is for sure. I have a trophy now.



And a letter opener.

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Old 07-19-2011, 07:08 PM
  #94
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Kmot

I don't think any of the HARDWARE is defective. I am now wondering about the SOFTWARE the Rx is programmed with.
What is your transmitter, and is it one of the dmx ones that has to be sent in for a software problem that can cause lock up when used with dsm or dsm2 receivers?
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Old 07-19-2011, 11:40 PM
  #95
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

LOL Kmot,

Yeah we all end up with a nice collection of tails!

I miss my Giant Sweet'N Low stick Tail. I had to chuck my tail collection in a move. No problem though. I'm going to start a new collection soon!

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Old 07-20-2011, 12:18 PM
  #96
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

Tom, As a builder/flyer of radio models since the days of vacuum tubes may I give you some advice.
......Firstly your 4 star looked great and is certainly repairable.
......Secondly, Have you thought about building a new one and repairing the old one at the same time? I have done this in the past and found that as I build the new one I repair a part of the old one and end up with a spare model which can be quite handy at times.
......Thirdly, it sounds as if your radio was going in and out of failsafe which could be due to one of several things.
......Fourthly, NEVER put the radio switch on the same side as the exhaust of your motor.
...... Fifthly(?), Never use a cheap aftermarket switch as they can be prone to intermittent contacts.
......Next(!), A servo can go faulty and put a heavy load on a battery pack. Hinges that are stiff or control surfaces that stick can do the same thing.
......Finally, I am using some nicad receiver packs that are almost ten years old with no problems but have had some nimhs that have not lasted a year. I have just read that faulty receiver packs are one of the biggest causes of crashes. ( second only to pilot error ).
Have you taken the covering off of the receiver pack to check the welding/soldering of the pack?
I have not yet gone to 2.4 (still on 35mhz (UK) with no problems) and I honestly do not know which manufacturer I would go with, so I cannot comment on any tx/rx problems you may have. I presume that your Tx works OK with other rx's in other models.
......Hope you get it sorted,
All the best...........Chris U.K.
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:17 PM
  #97
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

30 years in this hobby and I have never heard any one do, or thought of doing this,

".....building a new one and repairing the old one at the same time? I have done this in the past and found that as I build the new one I repair a part of the old one and end up with a spare model which can be quite handy at times. "

This is absolute genius! You get all the templates ready made and all you have to do is trace out the pattern for the repair parts. You end out with two airframes to boot.

Very good suggestion FP!

I don't think that one is going to get repaired by the way it's tail is sticking out the side of the shop. Good to know in the future though.
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Old 07-20-2011, 08:40 PM
  #98
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

Pastor Chris, thank you for your comments.

#1: Thank you, but all that is left is the empanage.

#2: Neat idea, never crossed my mind.

#3: Yeah, who knows.....

#4: That was a mistake. Plane was upside down and I thought I was putting the switch on the side opposite the muffler.

#5: It is a Tower Hobbies switch, NIP, which I presume was made by Futaba. It has the proprietary Futaba keyed plugs.

#6: Yes I am aware of that.

#7: Seems I may be part of this group?

#8: No, I have no done that.
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Old 07-22-2011, 06:58 AM
  #99
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.

I have a Futaba 9C. Got tired of worrying about others on my frequency, I used two frequencies and got tired of switching modules when I switched airplanes, (not to mention got tired of forgetting to bring the right module) got tired of long antennas; So I ordered a Frsky transmitter module and a bunch of receivers various sizes and put the Frsky in all my airplanes. If I had bought the same items from Futaba it would have cost me at least $700. more than I paid. Plus if I had bought a new Futaba system and switched all my airplanes to 2.5gig I shudder to think the cost.

So I'm happy with what I have. People can bash me all they want, it works for me.
I also have a concealed weapons license and carry a gun, have sometime ridden my Harley without a helmet, and have eaten potted meat All perfectly legal, and all have gotten me criticized by "well meaning" individuals trying to protect me from myself just because they would never do those things.

Does this make me a rebel?
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Old 07-22-2011, 08:34 AM
  #100
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Default RE: Four Star 60 dies on maiden day.


Quote:
ORIGINAL: RoyR

I have a Futaba 9C. Got tired of worrying about others on my frequency, I used two frequencies and got tired of switching modules when I switched airplanes, (not to mention got tired of forgetting to bring the right module) got tired of long antennas; So I ordered a Frsky transmitter module and a bunch of receivers various sizes and put the Frsky in all my airplanes. If I had bought the same items from Futaba it would have cost me at least $700. more than I paid. Plus if I had bought a new Futaba system and switched all my airplanes to 2.5gig I shudder to think the cost.

So I'm happy with what I have. People can bash me all they want, it works for me.
I also have a concealed weapons license and carry a gun, have sometime ridden my Harley without a helmet, and have eaten potted meat All perfectly legal, and all have gotten me criticized by "well meaning" individuals trying to protect me from myself just because they would never do those things.

Does this make me a rebel?

Maaaan.. thats living on the edge... potted... meat... woooh.
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