H. Wayne S

My Feedback: (18)

Question, your flying your new 28%er and having a ball, second day you have had it out. You are flying the established pattern, circle with left turns, you are coming straight in for a landing approach and someone does a loop, not in the pattern, but 90 degrees to the pattern and comes down and cuts the tail off your plane. [:@] Your plane, TOTAL Loss, even the engine jug is broken.
The other plane, a 40 size Twist now with a cracked canopy and a busted rib in the wing.

Now what ? Who is at fault ? Who is responsible for the losses ?

Just curious.

Crashem

Mid-airs are usually looked at as no fault accidents you'd have to check the rules where the mishap occured to be sure.

TNRabbit

At our field, precedence is ALWAYS given when someone calls out "LANDING"...the only override is "DEAD STICK" or loss of control

b17flyer

My Feedback: (32)

AMA considers midairs as no fault of etheir party. Welcome to the hobby!
Oh this is also true if an airplane hits parked(no flying) models on the ground.

Ducted Fan Dan

My Feedback: (2)

Wow H. Wayne S, you got shafted. I would sue the pants off they guy that wrecked your plane. How could he be so bold to fly in your sky! I mean after all, you had a 28%er and he just had a 40 sizer. He should have sat in the pits until you were finished flying for the day!

That's got to hurt.

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Boy, am I glad I fly at fields where there is no such thing as "established patterns", so people always try to be aware of other planes!

While agree that mid-airs are generally no-fault incidence, if you CALLED for landing, I MAY be persuaded to assign blame to the non-lander. And that is assuming that if it was called, it was called loud enough for everyone to clearly hear.

wagas

Although none of you know either of these guys.....I do and fly with both (or at least one, I duck for cover with the other.)

Our club does have rules about flying over the runway and approach areas at either end of the field (we have designated areas for 3d flyers and fun flyers while others are in the air!) So the Guy flying the TWIST was in the wrong according to our club rules. When these guys are flying so close to the line and you yell LANDING they still can't hear you over the sound of their own engine....

GUY WITH TWIST MUST PAY....

As far as Established patterns go it's the normal approach and pattern whichever way the wind is blowing...common sense for any pilot...I'm pretty sure this is what Wayne meant (who would want to land down wind..are there clubs with SET PATTERNS...YUCK!)

Falcon Jet

Mid airs are a part of the game, although I agree with others who have posted that field rules should be honored. What I hate is trying to do pattern work when some arrogant #%^%*@# is doing stunts with his helo right over the center of the field. I cringed ever time when I came in for a landing hoping this guy wouldn't hit me. I made sure I screamed "landing" loud enough for him to hear me. Had he hit my plane, I would of insisted he pay for it. Thankfully it never happened. There's always some that make it hard for others.

Chris.

8178

My Feedback: (17)

In relationship to the typical runway and field layout, what area on your field is designated for 3d flyers and fun flyers? Do you group the 3Ds with the helicopters?

Dukester

My Feedback: (31)

Putting aside 'fault' and 'responsibility for losses' for a second, shouldn't general common sense rules of the road (sky?) apply. If flying at a field with an established pattern, if you choose to fly contrary to the pattern don't you then have the obligation to be that much more careful in avoiding others?

Duke

wagas

8178:
Here is a pic of basic layout of our field. Not exact but close. We allow 3d and if someone is flying by themselves they are free to do what they want as long as they stay 15 feet or more away from the pilots box. When someone else is flying no matter what it is the rule of thumb is that you cannot occupy the runway but can on the other side of it. Like I said so many club members and not everyone always obeys. For the most part we have a real good club and everyone gets along, we have a wide variety of pilots and flying styles.

As for Wayne I'm his friend so naturally I'm going to be biased no matter what is said.....Heh Heh...

8178

My Feedback: (17)

This is off topic but thanks for the info. I’ve been researching what to do about fixed wing hovering at our field. Our helicopter area is further away from the runway than yours but the layout is similar. From the safety, noise and flyer distraction standpoint it seems like the fixed wing hovering would be best if it was done in the helicopter area at our field, but they cannot take off and land there, so that is not a workable solution. Our club has a great bunch of flyers and everyone is respectful of each other but it is always good to have a plan that everyone understands. Not much interest in the club for the fixed wing hovering so it may never be an issue.

H. Wayne S

My Feedback: (18)

Pale Rider, Pale Rider, "Pail Ruder," Thanks for your comments, and for the comments in the other post.

If I thought Wagas and Zerodown would let me get away without having to go to "Time Out", there would be a lot I would want to say. But------

So I'll only say," Thanks for your comments and opinions, I'll print them out and post them at the field tonight."

wagas

That's it Wayne.... that was a pre-emptive...go to your corner Mister!!!! I'll talk to you later...heh heh...

evan-RCU

The "who's fault" game is killing this sport as well as many others. It's one thing to assign a fault but another to do so to get someone to pay for another persons property. We have had problems with it at our field(as I'm sure most others have) and it has caused some people to leave the hobby and others to step back and take a second look. I have been flying for 30+ years and fly everything from 16 footers to little delta speedsters to helos, I have been an instructor at many clubs as well as an officer here and there. As I said I have taken a second look at things and I have decided that I will no longer test fly another persons aircraft, instruct others, or fly any of my odd ball things(large aircraft, fast aircraft, and helos) when there are large numbers of people, and certain people, at the field.

I feel that other than blatant errors such as taxiing into a parked aircraft or turning on your TXer when another has the pin and is flying that events are no fault. I also feel that anyone putting their aircraft in the air has to be responsible enoungh to know what hazards are around them and be able to avoid them. If you are unwilling to take on this resposibility then you shouldn't put your aircraft into the air.

One recent thing that has reenforced my feelings was when a person brought out a new, never flown GP P-38 I was asked if I would fly it for the maiden flight. I happened to have my KMP P-38 with me that day and am known as one of the better pilots at the field. I am not an instructor for the club that flies at this field. I responded no thank you and after watching another pilot help tune the engines for a half hour I did help tune the engines and since I was there I helped carry the plane to the flight line. The first flight was the last as the little P-38 was overcontrolled into the ground. Afterwards the pilot very rudely and loudly proclaimed that the crash was my fault because I didn't do the test flight. I was damed either way on this one. The pilot was looking for someone to blame either way and didn't want to place any of it on herself.

This seems to be more the norm nowadays and I can see why some people are choosing to get out of the hobby or to fly solo at parks and fields. Sorry if I'm stepping on anyone's toes but you have to know what you're doing and take responibility for you own actions and situations that you put yourself into.

MikeMc

Again it's all about money. The guy with the more expensive plane always has the right of way. It's pretty simple.

evan-RCU

Mike, if it was only that easy

Could you imagine that as the rule at Joe Nall?

BTW, I didn't go to Nall this year. The liability thing was one reason but the bigger reason was the hassle of getting the pin, in previous years I've had people take it and simply say"you're not getting the clip today".

Another problem that seems to happen more is the lack of respect for and from other fliers. Things like hovering are obvious but also calling takeoffs and landings and flying a pattern if everyone else is doing so.

Wow, I'm standing on a soap box!!!![X(]

MikeMc

I wish it was that easy too. Not that rule but just easy. Some guys with expensive planes do think they deserve the respect though. Screw that.

bentwings

Here is the way I do it. If you have a responsible and good spotter you can minimise the chances of midairs. But the best way IMHO is check out the field and flyers. If there are squirls and other who don't give a GD leave your stuff in the truck and watch or go home. I've done this a bunch of times even after driving a long ways. I can't afford to needlessly wreck my stuff. Next I don't want any part of wayward aircraft..especially 35+pound warbirds or really big aerobatic planes. An .049 can do some pretty mean damage if not treated with respect too. I generally will not fly unless it is with like planes in the air. Warbirds and WB's, big aerobatic and BA's, Heli's and helie's, Mix trainers and inexperienced flyers with any of these and you have midair soup on the stove. With well defined flight lines and experienced flyer and spotters and it can be a lot of fun. Now I'm not against the new guy...I was there before too. In fact it was a long time before the good guys let me play with them. I think it is up to the club to provide good spotters and helpers for the new guy so he gets some confidence and experience. as well as good habits at the field.
Check this out to diviate from the thread a bit...I went to a highly respected field for an event. I had delayed going to this yearly event until I had a good enough plane and that I felt that I was a good enough flyer to be able to fly with the "good guys" at a famous field. After several rounds I went out for the final round and as I walked behind a couple of old guys younger than me, my plane went into fail safe and turned out off the runway fortunately away from us. My spotter quickly looked around and said those guys are on the same frequency!!! He then ran out and grabbed the wing of my plane and killed the motor. Then we went to find out about the frequency. Come to find out there were 2 pin boards ..the club board and the event board both populated with pins. One of these guys says to me "I don't give a good GD about the event, I'm flying anyway". Guess what..I gave my trophy back saying "y'all aren't ready to give out trophies except for jackass of the day". I never went back to the club despite several invitations. So much for "name" clubs. I guess you could say I didn't follow my own rules either.

As for who pays for whose's...I played hockey for 15 years and no one ever paid for my 5 knocked out teeth, 150 stitches in the face and head, broken ribs, broken fingers, slashed legs. Who paid for the little 4 day hospital stay resulted from a "spearing"? Other than a few "retributions" and returned favors it came out of my pocket. Who paid for the 4 day stay in the hospital for the near fatal concussion earned playing church league "no contact" softball as a result of errant base running by an opponent church goer.? The crusades still exist I guess. Faith against faith. Bull S... happens. If we are going to sue everybody or some one is going to sue us, why the h.... are we out there doing "dangerous things". For both sides of the fence....if you are going to play with the big dogs then you better act like a dog..otherwise stay on the porch until you grow the right kind of fur.

Sorry for the soap box. disrespect for others just get under my skin.

bentwings

Falcon Jet

Very well put evan, have seen the same thing at the field I used to fly at. Had a great guy who used to help ANYONE who had a problem, bent over backwards to do test flights, etc, etc. Then one day, while he was flying this disabled kids plane, he lost the signal and the plane went in. Come to find out, the kid didn't properly charge the plane the night before. This guy was ultimately "black balled" from the field cause he refused to pay for the kid's plane after he found that out. Never saw him again. Really too bad, cause this guy was awesome. Anyway, know where your coming from!

Chris.

finfan

I'm a newbie to this whole sport/hobby/obsession, so take my opinion for what it's worth. Every time my Nexstar leaves the ground, I recognize that there are a large number of things that can wrong. Any one of which could bring my bird to a balsa mulch death. The "big sky" principle is in effect. There's alot of space up there and the likelyhood of a midair is slim. I have bs'd about this topic (not a serious discussion, but "while it's windy" chatter, and few have witnessed any, if not only 1 or 2 midairs in decades of flying.

That aside, my point is that if you choose to put your plane in the air, you do so understanding the inherent risk of flight. The same principle (though not magnitude) as taking a commercial flight. You recognize and agree to accept the risk.

The risk of equipment malfunction, or pilot error, even with veteran fliers, must far exceed the risk of mid-air. Understanding that, it's no-fault. Common sense and safety rules should be enforced, but, barring a rule violation, you fly, you will come down, somehow.

Tim

Taildragger

My Feedback: (204)

Evan, You sound like my kind of modeler. Wish we could share the same field.

Spoiler

Quoth Mr P R, his words dripping with sarcasm[:@] Frankly, and has been borne out by other comments on this thread, the 40 size pilot is a probably to blame - performing an aerobatic manouvre in airspace that is likely to be full of landing planes. The 28% pilot was on approach, nearly always a dodgy stage in the flight and pretty hard to avoid other planes due to low altitude and power.

H. Wayne S

My Feedback: (18)

I am not, have not, and will not try to make anyone pay for a plane, I was just wondering, as the origional thread stated, asking who was at fault. It was not and is not about money.

I like evan-RCU's and finfan's outlook and attitude on this. Thanks for sharing.

Not only do I fly Giants,and eventhough most of the planes in my hanger are now Giants, I have and fly 40, 60, 90 and 120 planes weekly also, I fly what I want to and like. Some think it's strange to have a H-9 330S, a 110" Rascal, a Waco 90, and an Edge 540 and a Spad on the flight line at the same time, but I do it because I like to fly different things. I never put the Twist down, heck I have one, it's in about 100 pieces now but....
My point, as anyone at our field knows,I fly all types & sizes and I respect every pilot on the field regardless of their birds or the size of their birds. I was just asking who was at fault.

nsmjim

My Feedback: (52)

Well...judging from the response, I would say no one is at fault. I do wonder what would happen if the gentleman that flew his .40 plane into your 28% would do if the situation were reversed??? That is sometimes the mark of a true gentleman pilot??