BDAD Flyer

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Here is what happened today. Very weird crash... what do you think of the wing structure?

http://www.blinddumbanddeaf.com/ourvideos.htm

It was a maiden flight and the first landing. The plane had that optional suspention as well.

bubbagates

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During the first takeoff it bounced pretty hard on that gear which probably weakend it somewhat. It looked like the gear failed do to a hard touchdown and as they say, the rest is history.

Still was a nice plane and sorry for the loss

BDAD Flyer

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Its repairable, but seems that the wing structure could use a little stronger spar. There was no hard wood, all balsa as you can see in the pic

Ralpho

I don't know about your thoughts, but if that baby was mine I'd be on the phone in the morning with them for a new plane. That wing looks awfully weak to break like it did with such a small bounce! Just my two cents worth. Ralpho

shag555

I don't know what to say... Flame you for flying near a crowd and cars like that, sympathize with you over a obviously weak spar / LG (or lack of) plates, or ask if the video you edited out revealed any other incidents like the 1st...

Sorry for your loss - give em a call and get yourself a new wing! You weren't supposed to epoxy anything in there when you glued the wing halves together were you???

MPB

shag555

In looking at your video in a frame by frame - did that weel pant catch on a hole in the snow??? Snow there looks pretty packed but none the less, in a frame by frame, looks like the gear is being compressed again right before failure, like there was a low spot and the gear caught on it.

MPB

Broken

I see it too!! It looks like that wheel provided the lateral force needed to twist the wing off.. The previous flights may have set the failure in motion.

BDAD Flyer

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That was not me flying it, but my friend and i would not fly it they way he did.
I am not sure of the hole in the snow, it did not seem that way when we were up at the field...
Who knows, but it was built exactly as the manual stated. We emailed Great Planes, sent a video and a pic asking for their opinion. Will see what they have to say. Personally, i have a feel that since its an ARF, it was poorly glued and the glue came loose in previous mishaps.

I just question the design, how would the wing hold on if there were not optional Robo Struts installed.?!....

BasinBum

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I have seen a few of those models with a lot of flights on them, I don't know if you can blame the design. I'd guess that first hard bounce caused some damage and the second landing finished it off. Not having any experiance with cold weather flying I'm no expert but does the wood and glue become more brittle at freezing temperatures? It would seem to contribute to the plane breaking apart more easily.

Either way a GeeBee is a handfull and it never looked like the pilot had complete control. I don't think the spectators new how close they were to seeing that plane up close at any moment otherwise they wouldn't have been standing there. It doesn't look like the best arraingment for flying with the cars and people right on the flightline like that.

I'm just glad you had a video camera going so we could watch it and second guess the crap out of everything someone else did. It makes me feel smarter to see someone else goof up and I'm sure I'm not alone. Thanks and keep up the good work!

Here's a still with the hole but I think it probably was caused by the force of the landing.

BDAD Flyer

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BasinBum,
I agree, the pilot did not have too much experience with model like this one. The bottom line is, it is not the best flyer and in my opinion it is just a matter of time when it happens; in this case, it was the maiden...

Thats what I told the owner: "Hey, at least you did not cartwheel it!"

bubbagates

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Nice capture Basiin. I think you may have found the final cause of it all but I have to also agree that the previous recorded aborted takeoff sure did not help matters as the big bounce was directly on the right gear.

As far as pilot issues, there was a reason the real thing was nicknamed the "widow maker". It killed allot of pilots, not all of them mind you but most that tried to fly it. It's a racer, built purely for speed and fast it was but takeoff's and landings were not all that fun. The GP model does require advanced skills to fly it as most Geebee kits/Arfs do

The flying site is not the best. We have a field close by that it similiar in design, with the main difference being that there is about 20 feet between the runway and where you normally stand and then about 5 foot behind you are cars. I do not officially belong to this club but have flown there as a guest a couple of times. It does make me nervous since there are no required pilot instruction or test to fly with this club and allot of new pilots are up there doing whatever they feel like. I do fly there because the airspace is HUGE and it's one of only a couple of places that are somewhat local to me that I can fly my big planes (1/4 to 1/3rd scale) and have enough airspace to practice IMAC routines and noise is not a concern.

I'm the chief instructor at my main club and we have lost students to this other club because they feel the requirements to pass our pilots test are too hard. In most cases the next time you see them they have crashed their plane and now want proper instruction to which I say ask another one person. I will not continue to instruct a person that went out on thier own and crashed because they felt the requirements I set forth were too hard.

N1EDM

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Bill,
The GeeBee was not a widow-maker. If you read the history carefully, many pilots flew it and went on to fly other airplanes.

The present GeeBee replica, flown by Delmar Benjamin, has flown successfully at several airshows. I've seen photos of Delmar's airplane flying inverted at about 6 feet over the runway. It's a racer, and it demands a racer's hand. But it can be flown successfully.

Thought you'd appreciate that little piece of trivia.

Bob

bubbagates

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Thank for the correction Bob. Then which one had that nickname. Age and treachery kicking in today

My apologies to the thread for my mistake

Broken

Found this info regarding the Gee Bee R-1 /R-2 (Sorry for the long "Paste"..

"the stub-winged speedster demonstrated both its speed and its lethal characteristics" No one will ever know for sure what caused Bayles to crash, but the Granvilles were convinced that the gas cap had flown off and crashed through the plastic canopy. Bayles was either killed outright or stunned and jerked the control suddenly which caused the wing failure. In response to this the 1932 Super Sportsters had internal gas caps, bullet-proof windscreens and wings covered with plywood. The Granvilles vowed that no wing would ever fail on their airplanes ever again.

"the following year one of the Granville brothers died when his Gee Bee crashed during takeoff" Zantford 'Grannie' Granville died in 1934 while attempting to LAND at the Spartanburg, SC in his 90 hp Sportster Model E. He found the runway blocked by workers repairing it. His engine quit as he attempted to go around. He died in avoiding those men on the ground and not because of any defect in his airplane.

"but flying the tricky aircraft in competition was too much for Doolittle, who then retired from air racing." Doolittle says in his autobiography that he retired after seeing the "paparazzi" of the day filming his wife and young sons in the stands. They were hoping to catch a fatal, fiery crash and a distraught family. He finally realized just what he was putting his poor family through and was repulsed by the blood-lust of the media. Doolittle sent the following letter to the Granvilles Sept. 7, 1932 following his 1932 Thompson victory.

"Dear Grannie:
Just a note to tell you that the big G.B. functioned perfectly in both the Thompson Trophy and the Shell Speed Dash.
With sincere best wishes for your continued success, I am as ever.
Jim"

The Springfield Union newspaper of Sept. 6, 1932 quotes Doollittle as follows: "She is the sweetest ship I've ever flown. She is perfect in every respect and the motor is just as good as it was a week ago. It never missed a beat and has lots of good stuff in it yet. I think that this proves the Granville brothers up in Springfield build the very best speed ships in America today."

The 1933 crash of the R-2 resulted from a flaps-up, sideslip landing by Jimmy Haizlip, an experienced air racer who should have known better. He dropped a wing and cartwheeled three times down the runway at around 100 mph. He emerged without a scratch. The rebuilt R-1 was crashed by Roy Minor, another experienced air race pilot. He overshot the runway and slid off into a drainage ditch. The plane stood on its nose, then leaped over the airport fence ending up on its gear. Once again the pilot emerged without a scratch. The plane was repairable. But S.A.R.A. had had enough and decided to quit. The assets of the Granville Brothers Aircraft Co. were sold at bankruptcy auction that Fall including the nearly complete 6 passenger commercial job, Model C-6 (never completed). It was the Great Depression that killed the Gee Bee company and not the quality of their airplanes.

BDAD Flyer

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"The Gee Bee Story

Established in 1929, Granville Brothers Aircraft of Springfield, Massachusetts started a business of building small private planes. In the beginning they sold well, but the depression pretty much killed the aviation market and almost killed the Granville's company.
In the prevailing years, the Granville brothers designed several radical planes with high performance. The most notable of these was the Gee Bee Model "Z" racer. Tragically though on December 5th, 1931 during a record speed attempt, the "Z" racer abruptly pitched its nose upward, shed its right wing and rolled into the ground instantly killing its pilot, Lowell E. Bayles. Undoubtedly you've seen this spectacular crash in old newsreel footage.
In 1932, famed distance pilot, Russell Boardman had purchased 51 percent of the Springfield Air Racing Association (SARA) and placed an order for two racing planes with the Granville's. The new racers were to be designated the R-1 and R-2. The two aircraft were identical except the R-2 had a different cowl shape to accommodate the smaller Pratt & Whitney Wasp Jr. engine and a slightly longer wingspan. It was hoped that the R-1 with a Pratt & Whitney 1340 Wasp T3D1 engine rated at 550hp (jazzed up to 740hp) would be fast enough to win the 1932 Shell Speed Dash as well as the Thompson Trophy Race. While the R-2 with its smaller engine and greater fuel capacity and range, was used to hopefully win the Bendix Cross Country Race.

How did the Gee Bee racers obtain their distinctive barrel shape? Racing plane design wisdom in the early '30s dictated that the fuselage should be as narrow as possible. Zantford "Granny" Granville and design engineer Howell W. "Pete" Miller reasoned that a teardrop-shaped fuselage would be the best way to streamline the big radial engine and applied the following aerodynamics. By conducting drag tests on fuselages of varying fineness ratios (length: diameter), tests showed that minimum drag was attained at a fineness ratio of 3.00 to 3.50. The Wasp engine was 54 inches in diameter and the fuselage diameter was 61 inches at its widest point. With a fuselage length of 17 feet 9 inches, a fineness ratio of 3.50 was obtained. This showed that large frontal area would create less drag than a smaller frontal area. Using wind tunnel test data, Miller predicted that the Gee Bee would have a top speed of 298mph. This turned out to be very close indeed, as the Gee Bee had an actual top speed of 296.2mph.

In 1932, the legendary Jimmy Doolittle flew a Gee Bee to win the Thomson Trophy race and on September 3, 1932 he set a world landplane speed record of 296.287mph in the R-1. Within a year though, both the R-1 and R-2 had crashed, and in 1934 the eldest of the five brothers, "Granny" was killed in another accident, and with the driving force missing, Granville Brothers slipped into bankruptcy and history.

Full-Scale Gee Bee Data
Wingspan: 25 ft.
Wing Chord: 4 ft 5 in.
Wing Area: 100 sq. ft.
Length: 17 ft 9 in.
Fuel Capacity: 160 gal.
Weight Empty: 1,840 lb.
Weight Fully Loaded: 3,075 lb."

N1EDM

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A lot of interesting history. Thanks for that input, guys! Never knew that about General Jimmy Doolittle and his family. Great people, those paparazzi...

Another book is by Henry Haffke, "GeeBee, the Real Story of the Granville Brothers and their Marvelous Airplanes.

It's difficult to find, even on Amazon's used books section, but it can be found.

As for the term Widow Maker, I've seen that applied to several airplanes. I remember reading that about the prototype XP-38 and P-38 in Martin Caidin's book "Fork-Tailed Devil" until they learned how to handle 'compressability'.

Bob