lasdoug

What do they say "DONT FALL IN LOVE WITH YOUR AIRPLANE" Failed to heed that warning, because I really enjoyed the first 2 successful flights I had with it, and was looking forward to really getting to know the airplane. The 3rd flight put a dampner on that "for unexplained reason after 3 minutes in the air doing lazy eights to break in the engine, it takes a "NOSE DIVE" with no elevator control effectiveness what so ever. The toughest part of all this was the fact that it wasn't pilot induced error that led to the crash, and ended up walking away not learning anything, to prevent further mishaps. When the plane just falls out of the sky, I guess you can only speculate as to the cause, but not really know the exact cause. Wish there was a RC NTSB accident investigation team that could go over the pieces (AND I MEAN PIECES) and write you a Accident Investigation Report. Oh well back to the drawing board, and must say this section at RC UNIVERSE kinda put a humerous side to all this, I'm definitely not alone when it comes to RC airplane crashes.

manks7477

Dude - you can totally repair that, I am thinking you could have her up on Sunday!

As for the crash investigation please provide some more details of the crash.

Did any control surface seem to work?
Did you check the battery after?
Did the plane "twitch" at all before you lost her?
How fast were you going?
How much did the plane weight?
How was the plane powered?
What type of Radio?

There are enough people here that will help you figure it out.

rangerstl

Lasdoug:

Also things we'll need to know...

What is your experience level?

What was your throttle setting before losing control?

Were you able to reduce throttle before impact? (always try this when it really goes bad. No sense crashing at full power if you can avoid it. Also, if your throttle responds, that means your battery probably was working and you can rule that out as a cause)

What attitude was the plane in just before losing control? (knife edge, slow with nose high, straight down, upside down, get it?)

What maneuver did you just complete? (Man, I just came out at the bottom of a loop and the wings just CAME OFF, man!)

Did you hear any buzzing or "wuffling" sounds before the loss of control?

Were the other controls working?

Did you check to make sure EVERY piece of the airframe was in close proximity to the crash site and you didn't leave a control surface up there in the sky somewhere?

We all love digging into crashes like this don't we?!?!! And I doubt it just fell out of the sky if the wings and tail were still attached. Aircraft are tricky at different places in the flight envelope. I watched a guy fight an airplane after the engine died. He was determined to make that thing TURN like he normally would and just watched helplessly as it belly-flopped flat in while he held full "UP" elevator. He was in a deep stall and didn't even recognize it.

N

lasdoug

Thanks for the RESPONSE- First of all let me just say, the short 2 months Ive been in this hobby, Ive been overwhelmed with the helpful nature and camaraderie that just about everybody Ive met in this hobby has shown at my flying field and evidently in siber space via the internet (YOU GUYS). Its really refreshing to be associated with a group of guys with the knowledge and willingness to share it with others for the betterment of the sport. Also without that help from you Old Timers! this sport would be a insurmountable challenge due to the many facets of the hobby that must be mastered. From all of the Newbies out there many, many thanks for your support and knowledge sharing, its much appreciated.

Now ,down to the nuts and bolts of my crash- as I know them:

Experience: 2 months RC flying (NEW BEE)

Controllability: Range Check was good- Flew with no problems for 5 minutes doing Lazy Eights. No Hi G maneuvers. Just burning fuel.

Battery Check: Did not check after crash but; Was brand new- on charger 3 days prior to crash, 1st flight with new battery. At field even charged it again to be sure and voltmeter installed on plane was full green. 6 volt/2700 m.a. NIMH

Weight: Full fuel same as other 2 flights.

Radio: Futaba 9c

Receiver: Hitech HFD-08RD

POWER: At 1/2 throttle, medium speed. Not close to stall speed.

ONSET OF PROBLEM: The plane as I remember was in a turn back in my direction and suddenly pitched down 45 degrees in a left knife edge. Its kinda of blur- but I know I applied up elevator and tryed to level the wings to no avail. I don't remember reducing the
throttle it happened so fast (2 seconds before it disappeared below tree line
that surrounds the field.

REBUILDING: I wish!!!! The wings with the 4 servos were never to be found. Probably up in RC HEAVEN right now!!!

[&:][>:]COULD HAVE BEEN PROBLEM: As I think back to that fateful day- a very particular thing happened! During start I had a Old Timer at the field holding the radio as I started the engine and just after start, the throttle JUMPED a thousand or so RPM (not much on a 1.8 Saito) just enough to get our attention. He says "I didn't do that" and remarked "you
get interference (Bounce-back)off the chain link fence 10 feet behind us". This had not
happened to me in the prior 2 months flying my trainer from the same spot on the field
but since their were no further occurrence's, I didn't think much of it.

In Closing: I wish I would have done some gut wrenching maneuver and done it wrong and then lost the airplane instead of it just being a mystery of why it was lost. I am thankful to have found most of the remains, the Saito 1.8 engine in particular. Its on its way to Saito for checkout and hopefully will fly another day. Any ideas what could have been the cause or what to pay particular attention to (Items that prone to cause crashes) I'd sure like to hear them. Anything that might prevent a repeat of that fateful day.[]

flynte

I've felt what your saying. Lost my kit Midstar without being able to find out what happened [&o]. Right after losing it my new PC-9 was sitting on deck for it's maiden. I think I was more edgy than I was on my first flight taking it up. Got about 15 or so flights on it before I lost it 2 weeks ago during a manouver. Not saying I didn't feel any better about losing it, but at least I know what happened. I immediately ordered another airframe the same day when I got back to town and now it's ready for maiden. We've had solid rain including today since I lost it but it's suppose to good for tomorrow and I'm getting back in there air with it.

flynte

ArCeeFlyer

My Feedback: (1)

I'd be concerned about the throttle jumping by itself. Sounds like some kind of glitch. Could be Rx, could be servo. I don't see why the chain 10 feet away would cause interference. If that were the case, our planes would be glitching all over the place with the reflected Tx signals from all the metal objects in the area. We have an aluminum chain about 10 feet behind our safety benches and it doesn't cause us any problem like that. Did you do a range check? I've seen a few bad Rx's at the club show up in a range check and those pilots packed the plane up and sent their Rx's in for repair, saving them from a nasty crash. It just sounds like some kind of electronic failure to me, but I wouldn't leave out the possibility of some kind of outside interference either that may have been the area temporarily.

p.s. I forgot to mention metal to metal vibrating contact that might have cropped up in your plane. That can cause some pretty bad glitching. This I have watched happen several times, especially in helicopters.

agexpert

My Feedback: (1)

Get another ultra-stick ASAP!!

I had that as my um....second, second plane, (my first, second plane was the super-stick). It can do ANYTHING. You can loop, roll, practice IMAC and even hover. Just hover high, because it won't pull-out.


Is there any possibility that you were shot-down? Can you do a forensic range-check on the RX? Was the crystal in the RX when you found it? Check the switch and see if it still works properly. Could you have hit the 'crow' switch or any other mix while flying? etc...etc...

That plane will not drop on you like that even in a stall. It is so lightly-loaded that it self-recovers from a spin, and must be forced down when the wing is flying. You truly must TRY to stall this airplane.

Don't give-up on this airframe. It's a perfect second plane for a beginner.

Mine died when the wing came off...bolts and all after a dust-devil banged it into a table while I was waiting to fly...(I could'nt be bothered with checking for internal damage)...flight lasted about 19 seconds. I still have a nearly-perfect wing, wing bolts and blind nuts too. My fuselage, however, is now only about 21" long.

Good Luck and.....

Welcome to the END of 'free time' and 'disposable-income' as you now know them.

lasdoug

Unfortunately, it wasn’t a problem with me accidently hitting the “Crow Switch� on the 9C Transmitter, the plane was moving too fast-�DOWNWARD� But just a thought for future events such as this, Maybe hitting the “Crow� in unexplained dives such as this could have SLOWED its progression toward the ground, Leaving me “Bigger� pieces to pick up!!!!! Your thoughts on this??

Anybody know of a parachute system, that can be deployed, something along the lines of what they used in the "GEMINI Space Capsule" program, so the plane can "JUST FLOAT"
down to the ground in an emergency. Sounds like what I could of used that fateful day!!!!!!!

Your right about the ultrastick 1.20, havent flown but 1 other plane "my .46 size trainer",
but what a difference a BIGGER wingspan like the 76" Ultra stick made. On the 2 prior flights
it was far more stable, less effected by wind, approach speed slower than the trainer, just a all around kindler, gentler plane to fly, ONLY PROBLEM- The crashes are MORE EXPENSIVE!!!!!

That "glitch" after start Im thinking now, was a warning, which I DID NOT investigate!
When the plane is trying to tell you something, its best to pack up and investigate, (Live to Fly another day)

As far as rebuilding, Ive already gutted the useable parts and am waiting to hear from Saito
wether the engine is going to be flyable again, if so will be looking for another Ultra Stik 1.20.

MY QUESTION- The salvaged- Servos, Battery, Receiver from the crashed plane, is there any special tests to perform on them, before thinking about RE-USING them in the next plane?????? Would appreciate your input on this!!

scrappycat

Welcome to the sport, Lasdoug!

I'm pretty new to the sport as well, and fly full scale. I probably have 50 flights and 5 crashes under my belt (no crashes in full scale) :-)

2 thoughts:

1). I almost never complete a flight where I don't loose orientation, if only for a moment. Even while focusing on the plane. Its an optical illusion where the attitude appears one way but is actually another. Happens most often against the sun when the contrast is low. You think the plane is on way, but it is the total opposite. Imagine a 45 degree bank. Is the canopy toward you , or away? I know, you are in control, and you put the thing in that orientation, yet, it still happens to me, and it scares the crap out of me every time, because the plan goes against your controls. Will get better with experience, I'm sure.

Anway, I've nearly lost it many times due to that.

2). I put a beautiful new Mayhem 3D straight into the ground earlier this year. Radio just stopped responding (during a dive, of course). After review of the flight data recorder, turns out it was the stupid crystal in the receiver. A $2 part.

Mike

Arrow IV

Lasdoug,
One thing is all sticks stall with drama. They break and pitch down more aggressively than most other air frames. Don't get me wrong its a great airplane one of the best (my opinion). Like Agexpert said they will do just about anything.
If you were flyin along like you say for 5 mins or longer, with no problems, sounds to me like you got "shot down". I mean a 2700mh batt on charge for three days, wow you could still be flyin. Did the "incident" happen instantly? If so maybe a shoot down. Every shoot down I've seen happens like throwin a switch, BOOM over...
That parachute idea has been considered before, problem is, most likely you would not have enough time to deploy it, its still a good idea though. If it were me I would check to see who else is on my freq.
Finally what ArCeeFlyer (joe) said is also really good to check out, those Saito 180s are like little Harleys. Good luck!

lasdoug

FOR THE NEXT PLANE:

The parts you salvage from your crashes, such as- RECEIVER, SERVOS, BATTERY ------WHAT do you do with them????

Do you send them away to have checked?
Do you reinstall in another plane and just ground test them, before flying????

Would appreciate hearing what YaAll do ????


A landing is just a controlled midair with a planet

Flak

My Feedback: (1)

Personally, I check everything myself. When parts work fine after testing, I reuse them. Any problems that weren't there before, I either send away for repair, (receivers & servos) or fix them myself. Example, servo with broken gear teeth, get a gear repair kit and replace the gears. Broken receiver case; as long as it works fine, get a new case. severed battery wires, solder them back together, or use butt connectors and reuse it. Easy stuff to figure out. Remember, you can have brand new equipment fail on you. Not likely, but possible. Good luck.

rangerstl

Lasdoug:

Things I would look at:

Would your receiver antenna come into contact with anything metal or carbon (pushrods) inside the aircraft? A buddy of mine have that problem with carbon pushrods.

Were any servo leads laying along side your antenna? They can cross, but the closer to 90 degrees the better. Never lay your antenna wire along the servo leads.

Check how you hold your transmitter. When I hold my old Airtronics I'm constantly bumping the flap and gear switches. If you hit and hold your trainer switch by accident, you'll go in just like you described (a blip followed by no control all the way in). Folks with bigger hands or "pinch finger flyers" like me can have this problem.

If you hit a flight mode switch that was not programmed properly (not likely unless you had been experimenting with the radio programming) any manner of wierdness could have happened. I always set up my mixes on "no-mix" airplanes so that no matter how they're positioned, nothing changes. Problem is, it usually takes a full Tx battery charge and half an hour to get all that junk programmed.

Also, wiggle the trainer switch while testing the radio next time. A buddy of mine had his wires break and short out. True, he had DROPPED the transmitter in the past, but this was the cause of at least one of his crashes. Don't know how many exactly...

If you bought your radio gear used (read "previously crashed"), shorted servo leads have been known to suck a battery flat in a few minutes.

Wind shear applies to models the same as real ones. If you suddenly went from a 15 knot headwind to a 15 knot tailwind, you just lost 30 knots of airspeed. INSTANTLY.

Finally, I would not rule out the possibility that you just stalled it. I wasn't there, so I can't determine that; but you don't have to be going slow to stall. One can HIGH SPEED STALL when trying to turn too tightly. It will usually snap the other direction (out of the turn) DRAMATICALLY and SUDDENLY.

Things to consider.

N

skull1971

What about clevis's? Got (had) two U Sticks, and other H9 craft. on both sticks, on the same day, broke the pins out of the nylon clevis's. At that time being brand new to the hobby, didn't know better that to trash some of the supplied hardware. I was lucky, broke rudders, elevator, on the ground. switched to all metal clevis's. Also had problems with the retaining clips for the control wires at the servos, the H9's will split, and then the wire will work out of the servo. Just a thought, I love the Sticks, cried when the wing came off my 40, at about 250 feet, might of had something with the Rossi 60 on it.

cooperd

Oh good, a place to cry my crocadile tears. I lost my Ultra Stik 60 with a Saito 125 on it recently. One minute it's flying along straight and level half power, the next second it's rolled over and heading straight to ground with no control at all. Had flown it 9 to 10 7 minute flights without a hitch. Post flight check, batteries in RX and TX well charged. links all intact. Sigh! That's model flying I guess. The plane is rebuildable, only broke a couple of ribs inside the wing without even breaking the covering. BUT, it broke the cylinder and bent the intake tuve on the brand new Saito. Cost me $165 for parts to fix that. I was bummed. So I bought two new planes, an Aristi 40 and a Mayhem for the the Saito to sooth my pain. LOL. Also either going to fix the U stik or buy another. I really love the way the Hanger 9 U Stik flew.

Crashing sux...especially when it's equipment related, eh??

ArCeeFlyer

My Feedback: (1)

I think I rather it be equipment related myself. I really hate myself for trashing a perfectly good plane in good working order. [sm=sad_smile.gif]

cooperd

Yes, I agree it was a small comfort at least! On to bigger better and more $$ ...or go home!

edited to fix smiley!

Arrow IV

Coop,
Sounds like a "Shoot Down" to me. Everything working and batts all charged up... Shot Down[:@]


PS I love it, you edited your edit, that's awesome!!!

zope_pope

Hey guys,

What about linkages coming loose? Battery coming unplugged? Metal clevises on both ends of the control rod, and the rod unscrews itself? He didn't mention if he had control on the other surfaces but a shot down would render everything useless not just the elevator. Just my 0.02. Sorry for the crash. Not something I want to think about when I am finishing up my 30%. :P

Arrow IV

Sounds like a Shoot Down to me.



[quote]ORIGINAL: cooperd

One minute it's flying along straight and level half power, the next second it's rolled over and heading straight to ground with no control at all. Had flown it 9 to 10 7 minute flights without a hitch. Post flight check, batteries in RX and TX well charged. links all intact.

zope_pope

dead switch?

jetmech05

the cause of this crash is obvious.
You see at various places around the globe, and more so where RC aircraft fly, there are pin point places where gravity is doubled, perhaps even tripled. I'm sorry to say you flew through one of those places. don't worry they move around so that place wont be there the next time you fly.
oh you don't believe that ask lasdoug how fast his plane hit the ground

drunkenbushman

Yea i dont know why no one has thought of this reason before!

bkdavy

My Feedback: (1)

There is another possibility. I call it the "Fat Electron Theory." Essentially, it goes like this:

All electrons are not equal, rather there is a normal distribution of sizes centered around the "average" size electron. That means there is some small percentage of electrons that are actually much larger than "normal" electrons. These electrons have become more problematic as electronic components rely more and more on extremely small circuits and chips. When one of these "Fat" Electrons finds it way into your electronic components (from the battery, house current, car, etc), it can become lodged in the microcircuits, causing them to stop functioning. This can cause radio glitches, servo failures, etc.

Brad

drunkenbushman

Why dont we just blame terrorisum?