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J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.

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J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.

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Old 03-30-2008, 11:58 PM
  #101  
mjfrederick
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Default RE: J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.

I'm glad dabigboy said it before I had to... Stalls have nothing to do with speed, it is all angle of attack. A stall can happen at any speed short of sub-sonic. It's not as noticable on R/C aircraft because their thrust-to-weight ratios are so high that simply slamming full throttle will remedy a stall almost immediately (by changing the angle of attack, not increasing speed).
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Old 09-16-2008, 06:52 PM
  #102  
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Default RE: J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.

My DPM Super Cub takes off easily with no threat of departure stall whatsoever. Not so with my late GP 60 "clipped wing" Cub. That thing had a relatively high wing loading and I had to let it run down the runway a good ways before I dared apply up elevator. Otherwise, it'd snap and roll over on me. I learned my lesson after two repair jobs. I used a Saito 130TD in the GP Cub, which gave it plenty of power. Still, you had to fly the thing "on the wing" because shear power wasn't enough to prevent nasty stall behavior. My Super Cub, on the other hand, has an OS 160 twin and never seems to give the slightest indication of impending stall except when I force it into one. Needless to say, I like flying it a lot better.
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Old 10-10-2008, 01:09 PM
  #103  
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Default RE: J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.

my hangar 9 cub flies perfect with a saito 60 twin four stroker,i wondered about being underpowered but it works great..i think many people overpower their planes...fly it with the wings..not the prop!
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Old 10-11-2008, 07:36 AM
  #104  
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Default RE: J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.

I used to have a 108" cub with an OS 120 gemini, was a real pleasure to fly. take off's could be hairy in a good wind over 10kn but as has been said before, catch it early and no problems. I very rarely used full throttle, just slowly eased the throttle open as she rolled and was often flying at under 1/2 throttle. up in the air it was usually about 1/4 throttle or less. One of the things I loved to do in windy condition was either just hanging the cub in the air going nowhere or even going backwards. Downwind runs always needed more throttle, but thats par for any plane to one degree or another flying slow. While not the easiest of planes to fly, it isnt hard if you keep an eye on it, and amazing how much fun it is pushing the envelope flying slow. I regret selling that plane, but I have a 144"ws cub under construction now which will have an OS320 Pegasus for power. those multi cylinder 4 strokes sound simply awesome and suit the cub perfectly.
As for the cub not being a trainer I couldnt think of a better plane to learn on. It will teach you all sorts of skills that most new trainers wont that will stand you in good stead for later models, like the P51, some pattern ships, etc. Just my 2 bits worth
cheers Johnno
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Old 10-11-2008, 12:48 PM
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Default RE: J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.

Downwind runs always needed more throttle, but thats par for any plane to one degree or another flying slow.
Hummm, could you explain what you're referring to? When you're flying with the wind, your groundspeed will be higher, so you'd want to throttle back if you're trying to keep the plane from getting away quickly.

As for the cub not being a trainer I couldnt think of a better plane to learn on. It will teach you all sorts of skills that most new trainers wont that will stand you in good stead for later models, like the P51, some pattern ships, etc.
Definitely. I still recommend a conventional trainer for initial RC training, simply because the total newbie needs just to figure out the basics of keeping the plane properly oriented and working the controls (without worrying about the plane wanting to ground-loop on takeoff or snap roll in flight), but once that hill is climbed, something like a Cub is an excellent idea. I learned how to "control" an RC model with my trainer and Tiger, but the Cub taught me how to "fly".
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Old 10-11-2008, 01:38 PM
  #106  
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Default RE: J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.

ok, what I am refering to is when slow flying downwind the wind is actually robbing the wing of airflow from the front, and therfore in effect stalling the wing. you dont notice it so much if at all flying sport planes doing a high rate of knots, but poking around slowly can give you problems in a hurry, especially you're low too
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Old 10-11-2008, 04:30 PM
  #107  
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Default RE: J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.

Naww, the airplane couldn't care less what direction the wind is blowing or how fast it's going. The only time this comes into play is when transitioning to/from the ground, or trying to keep the plane oriented to a ground object (like when we try to keep our models within a certain distance from us). If you maintain the same throttle setting, your plane will have exactly the same airspeed going upwind as it does downwind. Flying objects have no concept of "upwind" or "downwind" or "crosswind" or any kind of wind other than relative wind.

The problem occurs when you try to maintain the same GROUND TRACK flying downwind as when you're flying upwind/calm conditions, and is also where you may get the impression that flying with the wind, slowly, can give you problems. For instance, say you're on the downwind leg of your landing pattern and are about to turn base. Since the plane is in an air mass that is moving relative to the ground (and you), you will need to start your base turn earlier than usual to end up at the same distance on the base leg. If you don't consider this, you will start your turn at the usual point in the pattern and get blown further away from the field.......or (more likely), you will involuntarily make a steeper-than-normal turn and pull back more on the elevator to keep the plane from drifting out. And this is where the danger lies and your wing loading goes up. This is harder for us RC'ers than for flying full-scale, because at least in a full-scale you have a better view of bank angle and also can refer to your instruments to maintain a more consistent airspeed....so even if you make your turn too late, you can discipline yourself to keep the airspeed up, stick/yoke pressure down, and stick with approximately the same bank angle that you typically use. For RC, all we really have to go on is what we can tell of bank angle, and amount of back-stick. The latter, actually, is a pretty good gauge of how close you are to stalling, assuming you have a fair amount of stick-time with the aircraft in question (and haven't dialed in a bunch of trim).

Try it some time. Force yourself to fly the plane the same way in a strong downwind leg as you typically do in calm conditions. Same throttle setting, bank angle, back-pressure, etc. Your descent gradient will be shallower, and the plane will drift with the wind, but it won't handle any differently, and you won't run into any stalling issues (assuming there are no gusts/wind shear).
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Old 10-11-2008, 09:04 PM
  #108  
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Default RE: J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.

if you are flying 30mph plus you are right, but if you fly like I used to fly my cub at around 15 to 20, and you are flying in in similar wind speeds it makes a big difference. at same settings as you say I wouldnt have had a cub left, simply because the controls did not have enough airflow to work and it would just stall. As slow as I liked to fly the cub it did make difference with my cub
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Old 10-11-2008, 10:22 PM
  #109  
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Default RE: J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.

No, wind speed makes no difference whatsoever as far as the plane is concerned. If your Cub was getting slow enough to stall it's because you were slowing it down involuntarily in order to keep it at a familiar speed relative to you: groundspeed. Now, there is a danger in flying slowly in GUSTY conditions, and that is that as gust intensity increases, so must airspeed, for safety. An example would be flying stable at 20kts and suddenly getting nailed with a 5kt gust in the direction the plane is flying: airspeed drops to 15kts and then rises back to 20 as the plane seeks its original (stable) 20kt condition where all forces are balanced.

It definitely looks misleading from the ground, when your plane is hauling booty downwind and yet you have very little elevator control and are near a stall. But it's because you are deliberately throttling back and pulling the elevator back to make the plane look "normal" from the ground. The thing with RC models is we have no speed reference other than groundspeed, so we must consciously consider what the wind is doing and factor that in. Consider this example: a plane is flying normally in a stationary mass of air. Now imagine the ground is zooming by beneath it at 20kts. How does that affect the plane? It doesn't.
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Old 10-19-2008, 10:44 PM
  #110  
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Default RE: J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.

Where can I buy can of cub yellow in a spray can?
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Old 10-20-2008, 10:22 PM
  #111  
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Default RE: J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.


ORIGINAL: dabigboy

No, wind speed makes no difference whatsoever as far as the plane is concerned. If your Cub was getting slow enough to stall it's because you were slowing it down involuntarily in order to keep it at a familiar speed relative to you: groundspeed. Now, there is a danger in flying slowly in GUSTY conditions, and that is that as gust intensity increases, so must airspeed, for safety. An example would be flying stable at 20kts and suddenly getting nailed with a 5kt gust in the direction the plane is flying: airspeed drops to 15kts and then rises back to 20 as the plane seeks its original (stable) 20kt condition where all forces are balanced.

It definitely looks misleading from the ground, when your plane is hauling booty downwind and yet you have very little elevator control and are near a stall. But it's because you are deliberately throttling back and pulling the elevator back to make the plane look "normal" from the ground. The thing with RC models is we have no speed reference other than groundspeed, so we must consciously consider what the wind is doing and factor that in. Consider this example: a plane is flying normally in a stationary mass of air. Now imagine the ground is zooming by beneath it at 20kts. How does that affect the plane? It doesn't.
then explain to me why i can fly a plane into the wind at 0 ground speed, basically keeping it in one spot and even climb, but when i turn downwind i drastically lose altitude and it wont climb at all unless i throttle up. not to mention my cub met its doom by flying slowly into the wind and then turning downwind and not throttling up enough and my plane basically fell out of the sky.
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Old 10-20-2008, 11:04 PM
  #112  
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Default RE: J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.


ORIGINAL: dabigboy

No, wind speed makes no difference whatsoever as far as the plane is concerned. If your Cub was getting slow enough to stall it's because you were slowing it down involuntarily in order to keep it at a familiar speed relative to you: groundspeed. Now, there is a danger in flying slowly in GUSTY conditions, and that is that as gust intensity increases, so must airspeed, for safety. An example would be flying stable at 20kts and suddenly getting nailed with a 5kt gust in the direction the plane is flying: airspeed drops to 15kts and then rises back to 20 as the plane seeks its original (stable) 20kt condition where all forces are balanced.

It definitely looks misleading from the ground, when your plane is hauling booty downwind and yet you have very little elevator control and are near a stall. But it's because you are deliberately throttling back and pulling the elevator back to make the plane look "normal" from the ground. The thing with RC models is we have no speed reference other than groundspeed, so we must consciously consider what the wind is doing and factor that in. Consider this example: a plane is flying normally in a stationary mass of air. Now imagine the ground is zooming by beneath it at 20kts. How does that affect the plane? It doesn't.


Finally got it together to test your last line where you statements regarding moving air mass etc.
conditions were 15kn S/E breeze that was fairly constant, we had a good windspeed monitor and a radar speed detector and crew to work it all and take notes. Air plane was another embers 144" cub running a saito 300 twin
Our airfield lies on the coast, no hills etc for miles around us
The throttle was touched at all once airborne

We did a few runs cross wind to try to get a reference speed to work with and found at our chosen setting we had a groundspeed of 32 mph.
we then proceeded to fly 15 circuits directly with the wind and then directly into the wind
average winspeed 18mph
Groundspeed differences flying into the wind were an average of 8 1/2 mph slower
groundspeed differences flying with the wind were an average of 7 1/4 mph faster
each leg was recorded for both wind speed and ground speed and the variations over all the runs was minimal within 5%

But it confirms my thoughts that our aircraft are NOT locked in a cell of moving air mass, and tail wind will rob you of airflow velocity over your wings and control surfaces if flying slow like I enjoyed doing.


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Old 10-25-2008, 07:25 AM
  #113  
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Default RE: J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.


ORIGINAL: Yaniel

cubs are deceptive little things. high wing, slow flight... must be easy right? WRONG!
I have the old Hangar 9 Cub 40 with the 80" wing. I've had it now for at least 12 years. I built it using the advertised Saito 56 with a 12/6 prop.

When I first took it to our club field I had one of the pro's put it up as I always do with a new build. He said it was fine so I tried it. It seemed a bit squirrely to me and I didn't like it. I was flying tail draggers at the time but this wasn't right, not my cup of tea. I took it home and hung it up until this past summer.

This year I got back into heavy flying, war birds, sport planes, etc.. I saw a Cub flying at our field and thought how nice it looked and how well it flew. When I got home I spent the next week preparing mine for another try. I found the balance slightly tail heavy and made it a touch nose heavy. I also found the wing incidence +2 degrees but, a reference on RCU forums said this won't be a problem.

I took her to the field, fired her up, and off she went. This was a nice warm day and maybe 10 mph gusts coming right down the tube. No speed demon but it left the ground without a problem. A nice smooth realistic take off. As I'm gaining altitude I'm banking right and I'm about 50 ft. over a stand of trees. All of a sudden the plane wants to roll over and I'm going wild trying to level out. It's as if my ailerons aren't functioning. One of the best 3D pilots in our club was with me and grabs the radio. He levels it out as if nothing happened. I'm a wreck and have him bring it in without incident.

I ask him what happened, is the plane under powered? He says, " No, it's flying scale. You ran into thermals at the tree line and you have to learn to fly with rudder."

That one piece of advice has changed everything and opened a whole new flying experience for me. I now enjoy a good wind when flying my Cub. I'm not burning up the sky but it's a new challenge and it's become one of my enjoyable, relaxing aircraft.

And all this time I thought rudder was for ground handling, knife edges, and hammer heads! Flying fast is easy, flying scale is flying.

Just my $.02 of rambling.
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Old 10-25-2008, 08:03 AM
  #114  
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Default RE: J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.

Glad you now enjoy your cub phatbob, I got that advice before I maidened my old cub and it made a huge difference, I was told to fly it like my fave glider (3ch electric) and I had a ball with it. Only times I really used aileons on the cub was on landing approach. I loved to fly her low and slow just puttering around and playing with the breeze [8D]
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Old 10-25-2008, 04:56 PM
  #115  
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Default RE: J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.

then explain to me why i can fly a plane into the wind at 0 ground speed, basically keeping it in one spot and even climb, but when i turn downwind i drastically lose altitude and it wont climb at all unless i throttle up. not to mention my cub met its doom by flying slowly into the wind and then turning downwind and not throttling up enough and my plane basically fell out of the sky.
Ummmmmm........you're not disagreeing with me here. You can "hover" in a wind because the plane is moving forward within that air mass. However, the air mass in this case is moving the opposite direction in relation to the ground. Consider my example of the plane moving in a mass of air, and the ground suddenly zipping by at the same speed as the plane. Say the plane is doing 20 knots true airspeed, heading east, then imagine the ground beneath it suddenly starts moving 20 knots east as well. Logically, the "speed" of the ground has no effect at all to the plane, but an observer on the ground would perceive no motion (plane is hovering). As to why your Cub crashed, you answered that question yourself: "not throttling up enough". Any time you bank, wing loading must go up if you are to maintain altitude. If you're in a slow-flight configuration (which you almost certainly were at the time, unless you had a mighty strong wind), then you were already somewhat close to stalling. To get the lift you needed for the turn, you needed to maintain airspeed while still initiating the turn...this would require dropping the nose, or adding power. All this is exacerbated by the fact that the ground observer/RC pilot is more likely to make a steeper turn when turning with the wind, because we're used to the plane making a certain turn radius and we will involuntarily try to keep the same radius (will require a more extreme turn when turning with the wind).

qldviking....wow, kudos to you for actually taking this to the field and trying it out for yourself. Your observations sound like what I'd expect, how do you think they contradict what I said before? Let's look at your results for a minute. First, keep in mind that your groundspeed while in a front-quartering crosswind (which is what happens when you are trying to maintain a straight ground track, as I assume you were for radar-measuring purposes) is going to be LOWER than your true airspeed, because you are essentially in a "partial headwind". This is basic vector math, and thus does not change with aircraft type (so a Learjet at 180 knots TAS in a 10*, 20 knot crosswind will have the same groundspeed as a Bonanza under the same conditions at 180 knots TAS).

Now, your speed difference upwind vs downwind is 7.25 vs 8.5....a difference of 1.25 MPH, which actually is just under 7% of the wind speed - well within the likely variations in wind speed during your tests. So the actual ground speed difference upwind vs downwind is 15.75 MPH. Consider the margin of 5% of wind speed, which is 0.9 MPH, on a run both upwind and downwind, for possible 1.8 MPH change, and we are very close to our known wind speed, 18 MPH. For an unofficial test, your numbers are actually very consistent. This completely supports the concept that the plane was moving within an ~18 MPH air mass the entire time. As a ground observer, you saw this difference and recorded it.

If you could somehow fly the plane at a heading exactly 90* from the wind course (would require a compass in the plane and knowledge of the exact wind course), you as a ground observer would see the plane moving "sideways" at 18 MPH. Something else to think about: when you are flying in a steady crosswind, does the plane continually try to weathervane into the wind, or does it maintain the same crab angle?
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Old 10-25-2008, 07:23 PM
  #116  
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Default RE: J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.

ok take my figures as relative to actual airflow over the wings, upwind they are increased and downwind decreased, that affects handling bigtime and noticeably too. cross I am always on the rudder and crabs too, as is expected. This is just the start of our experuimentation with our models, We are currently looking into getting sert up with telemetry to fit the cub to give a variety of data including airspeed, gps groundspeed, altitude and attitude variations etc there are set uops that do some for gliders, and we are trying to adapt gps and airspeed to the set up, saving it all on a mp3 so we can d/l to a laptop and see what we shall see what and how. Our electronics whizz is having a ball trying to sort it out in a small package that works, looking forw to getting the setup and trying it out
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Old 10-25-2008, 09:20 PM
  #117  
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Default RE: J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.

ok take my figures as relative to actual airflow over the wings
No, movements that you measure from the ground do not have any intrinsic ties to actual airflow over the wings. If they were, you would not be able to "hover" in a headwind.

cross I am always on the rudder and crabs too, as is expected.
Are you saying that if you did not hold in any rudder, the plane would never stop rotating until it was heading into the wind? I'm not talking about using rudder to hold the plane in a slip in order to maintain a ground track, forget the ground in this case. Think of when your plane is flying straight over the field at altitude, when you're not trying to hold an approach......it might be going straight down the runway, but what do you see when you look up? The plane is pointed into the wind slightly.

Tell ya what, I can't really say anything that I haven't already, and I don't want this turning into a flame war, so I'm done for now. Have you done much organized study on aerodynamics (college aerodynamics course, flight school, etc)? You might want to pick up a book on the subject if you haven't already (Jeppesen's "Private Pilot Training Syllabus" is a good place to start if you just go straight to the chapters dealing with flight), plus the background knowledge will prove useful in interpreting your upcoming flight tests. This isn't a cut-down to you, I think you will find some of the published info out there to be genuinely useful.

We are currently looking into getting sert up with telemetry to fit the cub to give a variety of data including airspeed, gps groundspeed, altitude and attitude variations etc there are set uops that do some for gliders
Sounds fun, keep us posted. This may be of interest to you:
[link=http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/UAS/Rascal110_1/Instrumentation/]Curtis Olson's wired Rascal[/link]
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Old 01-20-2011, 09:46 PM
  #118  
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Default RE: J3 cub, crash on take off nearly every time.

hi,

http://search.rcuniverse.com/search....one+conversion
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Old 01-02-2019, 01:15 PM
  #119  
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Default Do NOT use the steel wing hold-down screws included in the kit

Was just browsing the threads regarding the Goldberg Cub crashes. Just a word of friendly advice: Do NOT use the #6 x 1-1/4" metal wing hold-down screws included in the kit. Use 1/4" NYLON BOLTS instead. I witnessed two Goldberg Cubs destroy themselves by ground looping on takeoffs. The crashes literally destroyed the cabin structures. In both instances the Cub's wings were fastened with the kit-included steel screws, so the cabin structures absorbed the total impact because the metal screws did not break. As an alternative, I suggest using 1/4" NYLON bolts instead. Nylon bolts are terrific for wing hold-downs because they will typically snap on impact thereby minimizing structural damage. I know -- I've done it. Touched down with wing tips on landing which caused the airplanes to flip. Always pleasantly surprised that the nylon bolts absorbed most of the impacts by snapping in half rather than passing the stress to the surrounding structure. The cabin structure of the Goldberg Cub is notoriously weak. Using nylon bolts to attach the wing may not prevent crash damage but, I believe, it will help minimize it. Virtually everyone our club uses nylon bolts for their wing hold-downs. Just thought I'd just pass this along. Thanks.
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