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Heads up, CA hinges

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Old 04-06-2009, 07:48 AM
  #1
jetmech05
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Default Heads up, CA hinges

I think this is the best place to post this.
Every once in a while there will be a post about CA hinges failing. Well. they do, and I don't mean pull out of the wood either.....
I was flying an older airplane the Hangar 9 Edge 540. I bought the airplane assemblied but never flown in 06.
Ok now for the story...warm day mid 70's no wind....was doing snap rolls..probably had done 4 or 5 and suddenly the airplane wanted to roll right, and got funny in pitch, the roll was much worse, than pitch.....tried to land south but the wing dipping made me abort that idea and I sure didn't want to go all the way around so I elected to swing wide and land north..... did get the airplane down....
Found that the right aileron inboard hinge had broken in half, all the wood around the hinge was secure. The airplane was flying ok before and between the rolls.....didn't notice anything during preflight....oh and I don't do power on snap rolls....
I got lucky all I have to do is change hinges....
I know anything can fail...just informing you all...
Good flying to ya
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Old 04-06-2009, 04:31 PM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

Good point jetmech......... I wonder if anyone can give me an idea of how long a CA hinge should last. Most of my flying is scale like with some mild aerobatics on occasion. I want to make sure on this kit build that I get the best components I can afford and not skimp out like I do with my cheap EP electric planes.
I bought some Dubro nylon hinges for my TF.60 build and robarts hinge points for the flaps. Should one consider using CA hinges instead? I am worried the nylon will wear out over time.............


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Old 04-06-2009, 10:58 PM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

I've always used CA hinges, and even though I've never had a problem, I'm putting pinned hinges on my Sig 1/6 cub- no point in spending over 100 hours on a silk and dope build just to lose it to cheap hinges...
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Old 04-07-2009, 03:06 AM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

I've learned the hard way to ensure the hinges a securely fastened. As I preflighted at home, before I left and found a loose hinge but decided to wait to get to the airfield first before I fixed it. To make it short I forgot to fix the hing and ended up spending a week trying to find my airplane in razor grass that was about 8 feet tall. Important do a preflight just before take is just as important as doing it before you leave for the airfield.
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Old 04-07-2009, 04:57 AM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

The plane I'm flying now was assembled by me (except the engine) - due too this fact I always do a check before leaving home, then a pre flight check and then also a post flight check after landing...just before the next flight - I check again and after landing again.

The checks consists of pre and post:
- checking that control surfaces are secure
- checking servos
- checking the nuts on the rods etc.
- and also of course the battery
- and of course that all control surfaces are working properly (only pre flight)

Basically checking all you can without taking the cowl off.

Maybe I'm taking it a bit far with so many checks and I know something can be wrong which you can't see with the naked eye - but since I build it I'm rather safe than sorry (don't think I put that thing together all too well)

But thanx for the heads up jet.
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Old 04-07-2009, 07:48 AM
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jetmech05
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

Arrownaughtic: This airplane was the first I've ever had with CA hinges....There are alot of CA hinges flying.....so they are pretty reliable over all......
I have never had a nylon hinge fail by coming apart at the hinge line....although my second build was a 4 Star 60..I had a hinge pull from the slot...more epoxy and a pin through the flat part of the hinge and it lasted forever.....
I read a post a while back where a gent used the nylon hinges as usual...then removed the pins and ran one long pin the length of the surface picking up the hinges as he went....I think I'll try that the next time I use the large hinges, the ones with the cotter keys.
good flying to all
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:04 AM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

Years ago we used nylon hinges with the option to pin them, which I think is still a decent system. I currently have started using Robarts for all surfaces and find them easy to install and work great. I had a GP Big Stik that I had issue with last year, the right aileron had several CA hinges delaminated during a lot of snapping around and the airplane went in. On review, the outside (fuzzy part) of the CA hinge was still glued to the wood, and the part that pulled out looked like smooth plastic. GP said they had not seen this before, but agreed that it had delaminated. They replaced the ARF, but tried to claim that most likely flutter had caused the failure???
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Old 04-07-2009, 12:29 PM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

All of the planes I have built with plastic hinges some over fifteen years old are in good shape.

All of the plane with ca hinges need to be replaced.

It's your money and balsa you make the decision!!!
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Old 04-09-2009, 08:49 PM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

they say the blue ca hinges (radio south?) won't ever break but mine did. i didn't assemble the plane but an accomplished pattern flyer did. regardless i replaced them with dubro hinges.
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Old 04-09-2009, 10:26 PM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

I think the nitro and oil over a few season can help delminate some of these hinges.
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:39 PM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

does anybody know if and how control surfaces can be removed without damageing anything but the hinges ?
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:27 PM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

Its funny I saw this post today of all days. I have been using CA hinges since I got back in the hobby a few years ago. I had the elevator on my Extreme Flight Chinn Yak fall off today. Luckily the last two hinges held together till I got it on the ground but they to failed right after landing. I am going to get some of the radio south hinges to repair it.

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Old 04-17-2009, 05:22 PM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

I used ca hinges once back in 74 when ca first came out in a super questor glider .elevator hinges broke at the hinge line on the pre flite will never use them again,used klett and dubro and the robart steel pin hinges never had a klett or dubro hinge fail or pull out in over 38 years.It amazes me that even after a crash of a scale plane beacuse of ca hinge failure the owner still uses them.
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Old 05-09-2009, 10:58 PM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

straitnickel,
This is a belated response......but the easiest way to replace the hinges without damaging anything else is to cut the old hinges and then re-slot in a different spot and then install your new hinges in the re-slot.
larry
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Old 05-10-2009, 12:58 AM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

OK, here's my opinnion, in the picture you have a assortment of different types and makes of hinges, all will work, but let's just start with my own preferences and why, CA hinges can be thin, thick course fibered or fine fibered, the ones in the picture with the slot have 2 things going for them, they are thin( not as stiff when glued) and they eliminate the need for drilling a hole in the slot to let glue seep into the hinge and wood, the GP are strong ( much stiffer when glued) and have good texture for the glue to bond to. Then there are the pinned hinges, size dictates gap, honestly, I like the sig ones but use the dubro due to the sig (larger one) having a enormous hinge pin and that causes a large hinge gap, which causes lowered control response. I just remove the pins in the dubro hinges and install a music wire binding them all together. Also, you must epoxy these in place and anything over a 60 sized model, I suggest pinning the hinge to the balsa for security. Now I get to the two favorite hinges, the ones I mainly use, the Klett style and the robart hinge points. The klett style are easy to install, flex very nicely, and are very long lasting, the robarts are a little more work but can provide scale hinging to surfaces with the tightest gaps possible, as long as you build it into the structure. I show the 3 flavors of robart hingepoints to prove that they fit a large range of models, the large ones are 3/16" and the microp ones are 1/2A sized, about a 3/32" drill bit to install. I just ordered a ton of robarts and klett style, but goldberg doesn't make them any more, I believe radio south or sontronics does the design now. I'll look it up. But yes, I won't use CA hinges due to them breaking over time and age is the biggest factor on them, heavily used or not, they will fail in time. I only use them when I don't care how long I own the plane or if I can't install another type of hinge du to lack of backer blocks for the other types of hinges.
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Old 05-11-2009, 04:58 PM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

if you recess the pinned hinges into the moveable control surface there will be no gap.
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Old 05-11-2009, 05:40 PM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

Yes, IE- scale hinging, I primararily use robart pinned hinges, for the dubro style, it takes longer to setup, but the fact that the surfaces can be seperated by pulling one long music wire is great, that way you can make repairs and re tack edges of covering by pulling the hinge pin/wire.
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Old 05-12-2009, 05:06 PM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

I use CA hinges on virtually every plane i assemble and fly, BUT...... I only use one make, and thats the ones packaged and sold under the 'GreatPlanes' brand. They have never ever failed on me and they wick the cyano right into the hinge slot every time. I have heard from several people in my club who have used cyano hinges and have had them fail, only to find out they used medium cyano for the job instead of the super thin recommended. Also, it never fails to amaze me how many people try to use cyano hinges by putting glue onto the hinge and then try to quickly assemble the hinge/surface If it isn't a greatplanes kit I'm putting together, the included hinges normally go right in the bin.

I think i remember seeing a video tutorial somewhere on this forum, that shows the correct method for using cyano hinges..... cant seem to find it now. I'm pretty sure there was one for the robart barbed type hinge as well, using the foaming polyurethane glue to install them. Used the method once to put the rudder on my Showtime 90, seemed to do the job very well
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Old 05-28-2009, 06:04 PM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

I am the inventor of CA hinges even though several people make that claim when confronted they all admit they got them from me. Let me tell you how they came about.

I worked on Formula I racers with two other modelers in Fayeteville Arkansas, Gary Heithold and Gary Howard. We had quite an assembly line process and we built some very good airplanes. I have great stories about our famous prop machine which was a router motor mounted on a parallelogrm that we could measure RPM, thrust, and current draw on. Made a lot of racket but my point is we worked hard on developing and perfecting our Formula I airplanes.

Gary Heithold worked at Standard Register printing company and he would bring home end pieces and cutoffs which they gave the employees for scratch pads. We had always wanted a way to hinge our airplanes without swelling the wood around the hinge area as the planes were judged for takeoff position by appearance. We had laminated .0064 plywood between a balsa sandwich with hinge slots cutout and that worked well but was very difficult to do.

One day we were all working and Gary Heithold told me to tear off a piece of that scratch pad and hand it to him. Both Gary's had a good laugh as I struggled to tear the paper and was unable to do so. I asked what kind of paper is this and he told me that was a special paper that was a paper and mylar sandwich and that you could not tear it unless you happen to get a sharp fingernail to start the tear. They had recently had a print job that used this and these we scrap pieces. I started fiddling around and soon discovered that it would glue to balsa easily with CA glue and I saw a use as hinges for our Formula I's. This immediately became a hit and I started taking it around to the contests and giving pieces away. At the time Gale Helms who is Steve Helm's father was flying FormulaI and I gave some to him which he passed on to his son. Now Steve having a better business mind than we did immediately saw a commercial use and started selling CA hinges but we used them first and still claim to be the inventor of them which Steve will readily admit..

Now if someone will start a forum on who was the first to use a V' tail on quickie 400's I will be glad to tell you how that came about. I was flying V tails two or three years before anybody else and first flew them at Wichita and I'm sure a lot of the older members can remember that.
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Old 05-29-2009, 01:46 AM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges


tl rascal very nice and impressive. As a result of your post I went ahead this afternoon and used the CA hinges supplied with the Seagull Edge 540 46 the postman delivered today.

So it's on you when someday all the control surfaces come fluttering off. In the process I also managed to pour enough thin CA into the hinges to leak all over the place, bonding my cutoffs to my legs, and barely missing vital components - my knees. Just kidding, my knees aren't vital, but I was stuck to the airplane for awhile, and all I can say say is I hope the ailerons stay on the wings longer than it'll take to get my shorts off.



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Old 05-29-2009, 08:12 AM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

From reading many RCU forums, I believe that the reason that most CA hinge failures occur is due to CA causing the hinge line to become brittle and eventually break. The suggested number of drops of CA for installation is important to the life of the hinge for this reason.

However I read a review about six years agoe for a Global Hobbies 40 size Freestyle plane, and the person writing the review gave a suggestion that made sense to me and I have followed faithfully since when I install CA hinges.

The suggestion was to place a straight edge across the hinge line and use a sharp Crayola crayon (i use white) to forcefully scribe a line on both sides of the hinge. This wax from the crayon prevents the CA from completely saturating the hinge line while the rest of the hinge is saturated and bonds well to the balsa. This simple measure allows the hinge material at the hinge line to remain flexible and strong. It seems to have worked for me for the past six years as the first hinges that I did this to are still strong and very flexible.

Using the crayon method made sense to me and I recommend it for anyone using CA hinges.

I have had no problems ever with CA hinges; however I do not use them for my large gas planes as I prefer the Robarts when using high torque servos and I have sizable investments to protect.


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Old 05-29-2009, 08:37 AM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges



Interesting thread, and a very important thread as well.



I have been using CA hinges since I started with rc airplanes and I have never had a crash due to hinge problems. I have seen alot of different planes and most planes actually has CA hinges today, its what most arfs comes with in the box. It is very important to use correct amount of ca glue to the hinges. I am allways affraid that I use to little glue, but whats better, too little or too much? Well too much glue will make the hinge very brittle and it will crack over time. My personal opinion is to change to pinned hinges, the du-bro. ones works perfect!



This is all just my opinion, but after I stopped using CA hinges I am alot more relaxed when I fly. I just dont worry about the hinges failing anymore

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Old 06-01-2009, 03:02 PM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges

There are several different types of CA hinges nowadays and obviously some are better than others. Before you install the hinge try to tear it. Does the surface of the hinge look absorbent? try getting it wet ans see if it delaminates. These are all things to use in choosing a brand of hinge to use. The other ting is make sure you can get good penetration into the hinge and wood area. There are a couple of ways to do this. One way is to cut a slit or punch a hole in the center of the hinge before installation and that way you can apply the CA so it wicks into the center. The other way is to drill a hole into the centerline of the hinge slot. I use a CA applicator syringe or dropper so I can get the capillary tube deep into the hinge pocket as well as on the hinge line and letting capillary action pull the CA into the hinge. I don't like to let the hinges get wet after I apply them so be careful in the rain or cleaning.
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Old 06-02-2009, 09:56 AM
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jetmech05
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges



here is a follow up to the orginal post....replaced the CA hinges with flat nylon pinned hinges.....range check with engine off was good.....engine start at the field was normal but I had to mess with the throttle trim a tad (odd).....take off was normal but needed a couple of clicks of aileron trim....but I had just messed with ailerons.......rolls were ok as were a couple of Cuban 8's.....went into a big loop and as Pulled power off on the down line I felt like the airplane wanted to roll RT wing down......added power as I pulled up and all was fine....control was normal for a couple of circiuts in the pattern.....as i did this loop over a huge hill I am beginning to think it was turbulence or my imagination....



Downwind leg at less than 1/2 throttle everything is good....reduced power as I turned to base leg and the airplane went RT wing down and behind a tree line...out of sight.....Added power and heard the engine spool up then gave up elevator hoping to see it pop up over the trees....after a while with no luck cut power and heard the impact....



airframe in a pond....gear gone, motor, tank and firewall gone....aileron servos stripped (dual) but ailerons are firmly attached....got the airframe out of the pond and the foam around the receiver was wet.... cut it off to start the drying process....went home and opened the receiver, noticed there was corrision on the unused channels pins......and there was surface corrision on the circuit board.....there is no way the pond caused this as the reciever wasn't exposed to water more than an hour or two before I was home and opened everything....battery voltage good...



after all was dry hooked up the battery and the servos that were left and they worked good.....did not hook up the y harness that was in the airplane for ailerons yet.....Oh and like a moron I cleaned the surface corrision off the board before I tried it on the bench.....



thought you guys might like to know....good flying to all

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Old 06-02-2009, 12:29 PM
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Default RE: Heads up, CA hinges


Quote:
ORIGINAL: tlrascal

Now if someone will start a forum on who was the first to use a V' tail on quickie 400's I will be glad to tell you how that came about. I was flying V tails two or three years before anybody else and first flew them at Wichita and I'm sure a lot of the older members can remember that.
Please tell us here! Thank you.

Kurt
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