TheHindmost

Hi folks,

[This got longer than intended...Anyone who actually reads all this has my thanks!!]

Newbie Draganflyer V ti owner here! (Half of you just groaned out loud, the other half said "fresh meat!!" ) I have spent some time perusing this board before posting. Really cool videos, Sky High!

It all started when my wife and my son decided that the perfect Valentine's gift for me would be an X-UFO by Silverlit. I immediately became hooked on the whole concept of four-rotor 'copters. But, I'm totally new to RC flying (I do hold a real fixed-wing pilot's license, currently inactive; that experience doesn't help any!). My first X-UFO had a gyro failure within the first three flights (yeah, there were a few crashes, but nothing too bad, and I'm pretty convinced the final crash was caused by gyro failure, not the other way around). So we returned it and got another one which has been pretty good. I've had some transmitter issues and one bad crash which legitimately took out a gyro, but I replaced the gyro and the X-UFO is flying fine. But, it's not really good for outdoor flying. It just doesn't have the control authority to deal with any kind of real wind. And the battery life is not great (about 5 minutes on a full charge, if you're lucky). And of course, no camera. While reading these forums about the X-UFO, I saw everyone mentioning Draganflyers, so I checked out their web site. After watching their videos and recovering from a bit of sticker shock, I decided I just had to have one!

I did experience a shipping delay, but it had a very happy ending: I have a half-Pro! I've got the six-channel transmitter and a Pro circuit board, even though I only ordered the regular DF V ti. So upgrading to a full-Pro should be a matter of adding heat sinks and the cross-braces.

So far, I'm still learning to hover nose-out reasonably. I'm not too bad at it now. My first observation is that the DF is less stable and much more sensitive to control inputs than the X-UFO, but I know that's because it's far more capable! I can fly my X-UFO around the house with no problem. I've tried to hover the DF indoors a few times, but decided I needed more room for training, so it's strictly an outdoor beast for now.

One major question I have is on theory-of-operation. The X-UFO uses a mechanical gyro and when I give it power for lift-off, it lifts off pretty much straight up. The X-UFO does not have a heading-lock gyro and tends to wander in yaw unless you stay on top of it. And it starts drifting pretty easily. But it will do a stick-centered, throttle-only take-off without too much trouble. The DF doesn't do that very well in my experience so far, even after calibrating the TI sensors, setting the "level" position and trimming using the "hop" method. I don't think there's anything wrong with my DF; I think it's just me. If I hold the DF in my hand at about half-throttle, stick centered, and move it around, it responds as I'd expect it to. So my question is: If the DF has three piezo gyros, why does it need the Thermal Intelligence? What's the "division of labor" between TI and the gyros? Shouldn't the gyros be enough to allow it to self-level? (With that one question, I know I've revealed just how much of a newbie I am here!)

Another thing I've noticed and don't quite understand, which is related: If I have the DF TI enabled-and-calibrated, level position set, and I advance the throttle slowly, I would expect the rotors to start turning at about the same speed. But one or the other of them frequently seems slow, and even after trimming, the DF wants immediate control input as soon as it breaks ground (or even before). My takeoff method now involves a faster advancement of the throttle to break ground promptly, at which point I can get it under control pretty easily.

The DF really needs to come with lights! The X-UFO has them built-in and they are very cool, and also very handy for orientation. I'm sure one of the first mods I make will be adding lights, and I've been perusing the threads here on that topic.

I haven't had the nerve to fly the camera yet...But I now have several short flights under my belt without crashing or breaking a rotor, so I'll be trying it soon!

I'm very glad to have found this forum and am looking forward getting to know you all!

Will Crowder

P.S. In case you're curious: My username is the name of a character from Larry Niven's Ringworld series...The "Hindmost" is the head of the Pierson's Puppeteers race, and is called that because he gets to be in the back of the pack when an attack or anything dangerous is about to take place. That's where I'd want to be!

Koop

TheHindmost,
Welcome to the world of DF enthusiast!!!! You are the very first to say that the X-UFO handles a little better than the DF. This would lead me to believe that you might have an issue with your DF. Have you tried using a level to check your motor mounts? This really helps to keep everything balanced. Before every flight I check this because the slightest bump can knock them one way or the other. Stability wise I understand where you are coming from, but remember to use very small stick movements. Once you really start to loose control just kill the throttle before you hit the ground. You'll still have some minor damage, but not nearly as bad if you were at full throttle. I've been flying for about 9 months and I could care less which way is the front anymore. Once you get it down the orientation doesn't really matter anymore. The new rotors that are coming out soon really help and I would highly recommend purchasing a set when they are released. As for the Ti it will want to pull one way or the other when you are at low altitudes. This is due to differences in heat sources close to the ground. Once you get up 15 feet or so you shouldn't have any problems at all. It should still work at lower altitudes, but just remember it can only see temperature differences as high as you have it. I hope this helps some.

BTW, if you want to pimp out your DF I have some airbrushed canopies for sale on eBay. Just type in draganflyer in the search field.

TheHindmost

Thanks so much for the reply, Koop! I'm very glad to become a member of the DF community.

As for the X-UFO, I think the basic issue (for a newbie like me) is that the X-UFO is rather limited in the attitudes it can attain, and that its mechanical gyro and stabilization system will allow it to attain. An X-UFO pilot is not used to seeing the DF "tipped over" as far as it's capable of while still flying under control. (If you tried that with the X-UFO, it would flip itself out of the sky...) So when I say "more stable," I should probably just say "more docile;" same difference to a newbie. But I don't want to give the wrong impression: the DF is far superior to the X-UFO...There's really no comparison in terms of performance. The X-UFO is barely capable of outdoor flight. But, I will say this: For the price, the X-UFO is a great toy and not a bad DF trainer and indoor flyer. I plan to keep mine flying. I'll also say: If you buy an X-UFO, budget a DF within a month. Because you won't be able to resist upgrading!

I just had my first really quality flight with my DF, and I'm very, very pleased! I had it under reasonably good control hovering at fairly low altitudes...So I decided to take the DF higher. With my eight-year-old egging me on, I'm pretty sure I had it above 100', and I was really amazed at the stability and flyability at altitude. There was one scary moment which resulted in the most heart-stopping five seconds or so of my brief RC flying career: It was getting dark, but my son and I decided to do one more flight. I took the DF up to 75' or so, and could see it fine, or so I thought anyway. I took my eyes off it for a split-second to find a trim slider on the remote, not realizing the DF was still climbing! When I looked back, I COULD NOT FIND IT! I could hear it, but not see it. So I reduced throttle slowly while looking in the direction of the DF's noise and, sure enough, it had drifted over a neighbor's property, but was still flying happily. I got it back under control and brought it in for a good landing. Won't make that mistake again!

On orientation, I agree...So far, the DF has shown itself to be equally happy flying forward, backward and sideways...So there's really no need to keep it flying "nose first." Of course, that all changes when you mount the camera, which I'm doing tomorrow!

I'll check out the canopies...I also MUST get a light system on this thing soon!

Will

Sky High

Hello Hindmost. It's good to see another DF pilot on the board. You seem to be doing very well flying at those heights so soon. Be sure to post some aerial video and/or images when you get that all set up.

Hooch

Gratz and welcome, I am new too, only had mine for a few days now. Curious, you mentioned you just got yours, but it wasn't the Pro version, but you got the 6 ch radio etc? Did you buy it used, or is that the way it came? My question is cuz, I just got mine, I ordered a Pro, but everything I got manual wise etc pointed to a standard. Just wanted to know how I can verify I got a Pro? Sky High, any input on that? I am pretty sure I did, but just want to make sure. I just ordered some more rotors, I have broken them a couple of times, nice that scotch tape does well with them hehe! But am having a blast. Just patiently waiting for a non windy day to really see how well I do outside. Still debating on the nav light system, thinking bout going with the LiGlow alarm system. That has a buzzer when the battery starts getting low and the lights flash hehe. Not positive yet, but am still looking and taking any opinions. I know the heli will start not to hover anyways when the batts get low, so not like I have to have an alarm.

Anyways, welcome to the forum and the DF! Glad I am not the only noob!

Greasetattoo

My Feedback: (3)

TheHindmost,
Welcome to the forum!
Lotta info...

Koop,
Nice job on the canopys! Great work!
Nice Ebay name too! [8D]

TheHindmost

Thanks for the replies!

Today, weather permitting (it's threatening rain), will be the first camera flight...I'll try to post a video or same frame grabs, Sky High, although I may not want to reveal just how novice my flying skills are. Today's video will be going the VHS route, sadly...I'm still researching base stations. Plus, I've only got the CMOS camera, so the quality will be limited anyway.

One major thing I've noticed about flying high: You can't really keep track of the DF's attitude when it's far away. You can see which way it's moving, but as far as fine control over its attitude, that's very hard. Thanks goodness my thermal intelligence seems to be working well, or yesterday's high (for me) altitude excursions could have become disasters really quick!

I'll report back on this afternoon's flights!

One question: What's the best way to R&R the canopy? I find when I try to reattach it, I have to bend it so far that it threatens to compress one or more of the TI sensors. I'm considering making one of the mounting holes in the canopy more of a mounting slot so it goes on more easily. Has anyone else had this problem?

Will

Sky High

Hooch, I think the only thing that makes the DF a Pro is by having Ti or a frame stiffening kit. If you have those, then your set.

Hindmost, did you see some of my first flights like the second one over that school? I was all over the place because I got so far out and high up. [X(] [:'(]

One thing to remember about that Eyecam receiver if it's that little gray box it to try to mount it as high as possible, like on a tripod. Also try to have someone else move it to follow your helo. If you don't do either of those, you will get a lot of dropout and/or multipathing. The flat patch antennas are a bit different and more powerful.

As far as the canopy issue. I have found and I believe it says in the manual to make sure you attach the canopy from the front first and then either side. I was also worried when I saw the top pressing down and actually slightly bending the Ti board. [X(] You just sort of have to counteract that by trying to hold it away from that top board while getting it over those studs. If you make a slot in the canopy, it needs to be really secure because I have found that a loose canopy will shift and move in front of or into the sensing cone of the Ti sensors and affect flight stability. Even though the canopy is clear, the Ti sensors see it as opaque.

TheHindmost

Hooch, sorry I forgot to answer about the Pro: As far as I know, the differences in the Pro are the six channel transmitter and associated receiver (that is, the main DF circuit board), the frame stiffening kit, heat sinks (I think those are included with the Pro), and that's about it. TI is a feature of both the regular DF V and the DF V Pro. I've got the six channel transmitter and circuit board, but that's it...In order to ugprade, I'll need to order heat sinks and the stiffening kit. But at least I can control TI with the transmitter switch. Anyway, it sounds like you've got the Pro! But I'm surprised it didn't come assembled, as advertised. Did DFI ever say anything about that? Mine wasn't assembled, either, but it wasn't supposed to be.

Sky High, I'm going to try my best to tighten the camera mount screws without taking off the canopy, reaching in carefully through one of the TI holes. Even following their directions and putting the front on first, I find it very hard to get the last nub connected without threatening to bend a TI sensor. I'll be very careful about doing any canopy mods, though, and thanks for the warning about the canopy moving in flight and covering a TI sensor!

For the video shoot (currently threatened by rain; it's been raining this morning but might clear up this afternoon), I plan to use my eight-year-old son as the "director." He'll be responsible for watching the video monitor and keeping the receiver pointed at the DF, and telling me where to fly. I'll keep my eyes glued to the DF itself, resisting all temptation to check out the monitor. But I'll sure watch the tape afterward! The flights will mostly be vertical excursions, thanks to my still-nascent piloting skills!

Is there anyone from DFI on this board, maybe even Zenon himself? I'd sure love to learn more about how this beast actually works and what roles the gyros and TI sensors play in stability.

Will

Sky High

First of all, I wouldn't even bother ordering heat sinks or putting them on if they came with your helo. DFI has even said that they don't dissipate enough heat to justify it for that or the extra weight, however minimal. The fact that they cover one vent on each motor can't be good anyway.

Heat Sink Info & Experiences
www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3806223/tm.htm

Before you go to all that trouble mounting the Eyecam, and it is pain, [:@] look into putting some foam in those ball joints like in the thread below. Every little bit helps in removing frame vibration. To perform easy maintenance to your Eyecam mount without having to remove the canopy, you could simply drill two small holes in it in-line with those mount bolts. That wouldn't hurt or affect anything.

www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3676075/tm.htm

Hooch

Thanks for the replies guys, ya mine wasn't assembled and the video states it would be. But that wasn't a concern. It did come with a stiffening kit, and the 6 channel radio. According to their site, they have a dragonflyer V Ti comparison chart, and I am guessing it is outdated, or I got screwed! It claimes Auxiliary Channels on the Ti as none, and 3 on the Pro, but I assume that is handled by the Radio. and supposeldy the Pro comes with a 1900maAh battery and I got a 1320? It didn't come with heatsinks, but the spec sheet claimed they were discontinued? So maybe there isn't any true difference, but there seems to be a major difference in price! I ordered a frame stiffening kit cuz I didn't realize it came with one, and good thing cuz the one that came with it didn't have any nuts in it. So i had to use the one I ordred. Ohh well, I just hope I got the right thing. Thanks for the replies. I still love the heli, just kinda disturbed at their specs etc.

Moe3754

My Feedback: (14)

Heat sinks used with heat sink compound and holes drilled where the motor vent is does make a difference before if I flew for ten minutes I could not even touch the motor without the chance of burning my hand and with the heat sinks I can wrap my hand around the motor and it is just warm,as for not helping I think that that is a false statement anything that helps dissipate heat on a brushed motor is helpful.I may not be the top gun pilot like most of you but 30 years of being a electrician does qualify me to speak about electric motors no matter what size they are.

TheHindmost

My gut tells me both Sky High and Moe are correct...Improperly mounted heat sinks which cover air holes probably aren't worth the trouble, and may even be harmful. But a heat sink with proper holes in it and properly mounted (with heat sink compound; that's critical for good thermal transfer) ought to be better than no heat sinks, at least from a motor cooling point of view. But the weight could be a factor...

The weather here is off and on rain...I'm mounting the camera anyway (just using the stock mount this time, Sky High), and hoping for a hole! I've got three flight batteries charged and ready to go....Hopefully they'll get some use today!

Will

Hooch

So is the longer mount like on the SAVS gonna be an option to purchase for the regular TI's or will they not support it due to weight?

TheHindmost

From what I've read, you have to upgrade to a Pro (add the frame stiffening kit) and use the Pro battery...But the motors and rotors in the pro are the same as they are on the DF V, so I don't think weight will be an issue...

I've got a break in the weather; off to try the camera now. Wish me luck!

Will

TheHindmost

Well, the first camera flight ended in a bad crash...I'm going to start a new thread on it.

Will

Hooch

You say Pro battery, is that the supposed 1900 mAh that I didn't get? Cuz otherwise I already got the 1320's that came with mine. But ya I would like the option hopefully someday. Might require the PVC rotors to have enuf lift for it though.

Sky High

Oh, I agree that heat sinks work and do serve a purpose but I had never really experienced any really hot motors like I did last week flying with and without the heat sinks. I got the same result either way, motors that were very hot, unlike anytime before. Mine don't have holes drilled in them like Moe's which might make the difference. I'm just going by what DFI and others have said and that is that what heat they do dissipate in relation to their added weight, howver minimal, is not worth using with this system. I'm glad that Moe provided that information because that's info we need to hear and from someone who knows more about it. [sm=thumbup.gif]

Sky High

The SAVS is a just a DF V Ti Pro with the new camera mount. All parts are interchangeable. SAVS is just a different name for the entire AP system. That's what I've been flying for a while now and it works fine.

Moe3754

My Feedback: (14)

Here is mine.

TheHindmost

Thanks for posting those pics...very cool!

Will

Sky High

Moe, what does heat sink compound do? I'm thinking it's like a glue and if that's the case I don't know if I would want to permantly attach heat sinks to the motors.

yvesOttawa

It just conducts heat. Doesn't have any bonding agents.

Sky High

Thanks for that info Yves. That is interesting.

Moe3754

My Feedback: (14)

I just came in from a little test I just flew out two of the 2000 MAH packs one right after the other around 30 minutes I guess and the motors were just warm and it is sunny and 55 degrees with no wind so the heat sinks do help,plus I tested out the difference between the laminated blades and no lamination on the blades and the motors do have to work harder to turn the heavy blades with the tape than without I measured the throttle position it took to get my DF to roof level of my house and it took more throttle with the tape than without.Also the compound is just a thick paste but it is very messy and you only want to use a small amount to coat the inside of the heat sink otherwise it will be everywhere.I use a Q-tip to apply it to the inside of the heat sink and I also scuff up the motor casing with fine sand paper to get better heat conductance.