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Brushless Draganflyer?

Old 12-06-2006, 02:58 PM
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flyingdutchie
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Default Brushless Draganflyer?

I noticed that some of our 4-rotor heli colleagues from the x-ufo club have succeeded in converting their machine to brushless.
And of course I thought,can that be done to a draganflyer too? Havent found any topic on this subject but I'm sure it can be done?
Now that would be a quantum leap for using the DF as an AP platform?!
Old 12-06-2006, 03:38 PM
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vi360
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

What are the diferences in brush and brushless motors that keep you from just switching out the motors?
Old 12-06-2006, 06:09 PM
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laceycopter
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

ORIGINAL: flyingdutchie

I noticed that some of our 4-rotor heli colleagues from the x-ufo club have succeeded in converting their machine to brushless.
And of course I thought,can that be done to a draganflyer too? Havent found any topic on this subject but I'm sure it can be done?
Now that would be a quantum leap for using the DF as an AP platform?!
I have been following that forum and it seems that they are having Many problems with the x3d-ufo conversion. Also the conversion to brushless is not out yet. I don't speak German and the translation is not all that good, but the best I can figure is, by the time you buy a ufo, x3d-ufo frame, board, motors, esc's, parts and a radio system it will cost as much if not more then a DF and it still doesn't have TI.
And support is done at a German speaking forum with parts only available though them. Shipping takes weeks and is not cheap.
I want to see one fly around stable at a few hundred feet and shoot video like Sky gets before I'm spending money on it.

The DF can NOT be converted to use brushless because you need an esc for each motor and the board will not support that.
Happy Flyin,
Lacey
Old 12-06-2006, 06:19 PM
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Sky High
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

ORIGINAL: vi360

What are the diferences in brush and brushless motors that keep you from just switching out the motors?
I thought the same thing until I spoke with Mike at Spectro. He said that the flight board has to be reconfigured to be compatible with brushless motors.
Old 12-06-2006, 06:53 PM
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laceycopter
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?


ORIGINAL: vi360

What are the diferences in brush and brushless motors that keep you from just switching out the motors?
The difference between a brushed and a brushless among other things is that they are brushless. The biggest wear factor in the electric motor is the brushes and the commutator the brushes rub on. Brushless motors are much more efficient and produces more power and about the only thing that ever wears out is bearings. But they require a esc (electronic speed controller) for each motor.
The DF board doesn't support that.
Happy Flyin,
Lacey
Old 12-06-2006, 08:20 PM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Thanks all, now I know why you can't just stick in a brushless motor.
Old 12-06-2006, 11:27 PM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?


ORIGINAL: Sky High

I thought the same thing until I spoke with Mike at Spectro. He said that the flight board has to be reconfigured to be compatible with brushless motors.
you at the very least need a whole new esc/board , normal motors that you are used to have 2 wires, brushless motors have 3 wires
Old 12-07-2006, 05:57 AM
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flyingdutchie
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Yep I know its gonna be near impossible ,but hey the germans succeeded in a similar conversion too!
The x-ufo is basically a toy,and I am pretty sure support for BL esc's is not factory implemented.
Now for the stability of some modded ufos,have a look at the videos below..
I can read /write and understand/speak German so their site has few secrets to me.
As for prices,I think their stuff is not so expensive,and shipping is off course a long way to the states/canada,but not everybody on this planet lives there..if I have to order me some spare parts from DFI i will be looking at a 2/3 week delivery time,not to mention the additional shipping cost and possible import taxes(I had to pay an extra $120 for my DF upon delivery!)
So thats all relative I'd say.
But what I meant to say is,If a few techies can hack something like the x-ufo,it should be possible to do something similar with the DF ?.
I'm not an electronics expert ..Just some wishful thinking here....

http://www.comdesign.at/mywiki/image...rnsaal-web.wmv
http://www.comdesign.at/mywiki/image..._buero_web.wmv
http://www.olleroppa.de/data/speedtestkurz.wmv
http://www.erop.de/X-3D_BL_gross_rucksack.divx
Old 12-07-2006, 06:34 AM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Thanks for the cool video links! I bet the motors were burning hot after lifting the backpack. I think I said earlier... if you live near Germany, then get the copter they make.... and for north americans the DF is cheaper.

By the way, why does that guy keep kicking the poor copter in one video?...what did it ever do to him? It went on and on. Sadistic!

I wonder how much these copters in the videos are modified and tricked up by the personal owner?
Old 12-07-2006, 07:07 AM
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flyingdutchie
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

ORIGINAL: vi360

I wonder how much these copters in the videos are modified and tricked up by the personal owner?
What I understood is that most of em have an additional piezo gyro board and of course the bl conversion..
Old 12-07-2006, 12:30 PM
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laceycopter
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

ORIGINAL: flyingdutchie

Yep I know its gonna be near impossible ,but hey the germans succeeded in a similar conversion too!
The x-ufo is basically a toy,and I am pretty sure support for BL esc's is not factory implemented.
Now for the stability of some modded ufos,have a look at the videos below..
I can read /write and understand/speak German so their site has few secrets to me.
As for prices,I think their stuff is not so expensive,and shipping is off course a long way to the states/canada,but not everybody on this planet lives there..if I have to order me some spare parts from DFI i will be looking at a 2/3 week delivery time,not to mention the additional shipping cost and possible import taxes(I had to pay an extra $120 for my DF upon delivery!)
So thats all relative I'd say.
But what I meant to say is,If a few techies can hack something like the x-ufo,it should be possible to do something similar with the DF ?.
I'm not an electronics expert ..Just some wishful thinking here....
flyingdutchie,
I agree if you can read /write and understand/speak German and live closer for delivery and parts it may be right for you.
I've been following the forum I can understand in english, and they are having Lots of problems with them.
Read it and see: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...&page=29&pp=15
Not one of them have come anywhere near flying and taking video like Sky High has here and proven how capable the DF is.

You said: If a few techies can hack something like the x-ufo,it should be possible to do something similar with the DF ?.
Those few techies were the Inventors of the ufo.

As far as I'm concerned the DF is a very stable and Reliable helicopter, brushless would be nice and i'm sure the people working on the Rc Toys have thought of it. I have to believe if the people at DF thought they could put a Trouble Free brushless version out they would, who knows maybe they are working on one.

All I'm saying is I would rather be flying a proven product, then spending hundreds of dollars trying to get one to fly.
Brushless for the DF would mean Huge changes new main board 4 esc's 4 brushless motors all new wiring harnesses, maybe a new frame to get all the wires though.
I'll let RcToys electronics experts figure it out and buy one when all the bugs are worked out and it flys.
Happy Flying,
Lacey
Old 12-07-2006, 02:18 PM
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flyingdutchie
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Oh,my bad, I thought Silverlit was the inventor of the X-UFO and Jast and his mates developed the X-3D gyro board as a replacement for the mechanical gyro.Which by the way I was not referring to,I know they will come up with an official brushless version start of next year.
And you're right to let the guys at DFI/Spectrolutions develop the hypotethical brushless version of the DF ,I was just wondering if anybody
has ever tried to perform such a piece of surgery themselves (theres a lot of smart people out there im sure).
What I do hope is that such a board WILL be available soon for us draganflyer-flyers because I wouldnt mind to get my 8mp cam airborne ,
which is not going to happen even with the heavy duty motors.
Old 12-11-2006, 08:12 AM
  #13  
Hammer_DE
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

We now have finished our Big Brushless Quadrocopter Project.
It is airborne yet.

Our new Q4 / Race / BL / 50 is in original DraganFlyer Size.
You can use this Frame (without BL) for your Standard DF's also.

We use a Hybrid-Electronic (x-3D) and Standard Components, BL- Motors Robbe Roxxy or other.

Here is a pic and a video also, let me know what you think about this project.
(sorry for my bad english)

Link to the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GULe7VuR0rE
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Old 12-11-2006, 11:01 AM
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TheHindmost
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Very cool, Hammer!

How much payload do you think that will be able to carry?

Will
Old 12-11-2006, 11:47 AM
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Hammer_DE
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Hi Will,

with the Foam Blades not so much (the quadrocopterweight with lipo 3s 2100 ist ~760 Gramm)
but with the better Blades or with our CF-Blades, we can lift ~ 600Gramm plus
Old 12-11-2006, 12:27 PM
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TheHindmost
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Danke, Hammer...600 grams, about 21 ounces for we Americans . A pound and 5 ounces ought to allow quite an AP package to be carried!

Will
Old 12-11-2006, 12:54 PM
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flyingdutchie
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Good news Hammer !,havent seen it in the x-ufo shop yet..(very curious about the price off course [:-])
Old 12-11-2006, 02:26 PM
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Hammer_DE
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?


ORIGINAL: flyingdutchie

Good news Hammer !,havent seen it in the x-ufo shop yet..(very curious about the price off course [:-])
i posted nothing about prices - i don't know what you mean exactly ?

This Customized Quadrocoptersystems are not in the xufo-shop.

Greetz
Hammer
Old 12-11-2006, 03:24 PM
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techrtr
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

I thought this was a pretty cool video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Csti6mHZNF4
Old 12-11-2006, 03:43 PM
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flyingdutchie
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?


ORIGINAL: Hammer_DE


ORIGINAL: flyingdutchie

Good news Hammer !,havent seen it in the x-ufo shop yet..(very curious about the price off course [:-])
i posted nothing about prices - i don't know what you mean exactly ?

This Customized Quadrocoptersystems are not in the xufo-shop.

Greetz
Hammer
Ok,I was just wondering what they will cost,in case they are to be sold of course,and if so,where ?

Old 12-11-2006, 06:39 PM
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Hi!

ORIGINAL: laceycopter

flyingdutchie,
I agree if you can read /write and understand/speak German and live closer for delivery and parts it may be right for you.
I've been following the forum I can understand in english, and they are having Lots of problems with them.
Read it and see: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...&page=29&pp=15
These problems are related to the china mainboard and the china transmitters. They are gone with the X-3D Brushless. The brushless UFO is completly developed and produced in Germany.

ORIGINAL: laceycopter
Not one of them have come anywhere near flying and taking video like Sky High has here and proven how capable the DF is.
The question is, if you like to have a stable intelligent hovering platform to attach a 300$+ camera or if you like to fly indoor and outdoor like a helicopter but with a safe and robust aircraft? In the first case, the last thing I would trust is a IR horizon detection. The other problem is the height. If you fly high you can not see if the aircraft is falling or ascending. In the second case you like to have a controlled but fast and flexible platform. The X-3D offers you a very fast and reliable controller design, highly optimized for fun and precision. The special high speed brushless controllers in combination with the motors, very light weight CF Frames and LiPo batterys enable very efficient flights with a lot of motor power to stabilize the UFO in any situation. The brushless UFO is always (!) doing directly what the pilot is commanding with the sticks. You can do looping outdoor and land precisely on a chair afterwards with the same setup.

Check out the most recent video: http://video.google.de/videoplay?doc...71832011367019

...250g weight including a 640mAh LiPo (10-15 Minutes flight time), 1.3kG thrust, up to 35 Minutes flight time with a 2Ah LiPo....

Regards
Jast
Old 12-11-2006, 07:53 PM
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techrtr
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Very impressive!
Old 12-11-2006, 10:10 PM
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TheHindmost
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

Hi Jast,

Nice to see you posting here. Welcome! We've heard a lot about you and the various projects from Hammer. Impressive stuff!

ORIGINAL: jast

The question is, if you like to have a stable intelligent hovering platform to attach a 300$+ camera or if you like to fly indoor and outdoor like a helicopter but with a safe and robust aircraft? In the first case, the last thing I would trust is a IR horizon detection.
A few questions on that, if you don't mind...You and your group have obviously spent a lot of time thinking about these issues. I've been very impressed with what you guys have accomplished. Anyway...

- What practical technologies are available for self-leveling, as far as you know?

- None of your projects are capable of actual self-leveling. Is that correct?

- If the mission is indeed to do high-altitude aerial photography, do you see value in self-leveling capability, or do you think it's just a matter of having a good enough pilot?

- Does your group have any interest in high-quality, high-altitude aerial photography as an application for your machines?

You mention the problem of not being able to see whether the machine is ascending or descending when at altitude. What about seeing the machine's attitude? The difficulty in flying without self-leveling at high altitude is you can't see small changes in attitude until they start to affect the machine's performance, and by then, it can be too late. But perhaps that's not an issue for a good pilot? Maybe they can see the change in performance and apply the right inputs to correct it, even though they won't know for a few seconds whether the correction was enough or too much?

Thanks for taking the time to post about your projects.

Will
Old 12-11-2006, 10:22 PM
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techrtr
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?

I'm curious to know if flying the x-ufo mod is basically the same as flying a DF without TI. I've been practicing flying without TI but find that when the machine is far away, I have a hard time seeing how it's oriented. With TI on, you can always let it go into a hover and then figure out which is the front and fly it back to you. Without TI, by the time you get that sorted out you're liable to crack it up. I really don't like relying on a circuit board for stability.
Old 12-12-2006, 12:43 AM
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TheHindmost
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Default RE: Brushless Draganflyer?


ORIGINAL: techrtr

I'm curious to know if flying the x-ufo mod is basically the same as flying a DF without TI. I've been practicing flying without TI but find that when the machine is far away, I have a hard time seeing how it's oriented.
Hammer or Jast will correct me if I'm wrong, but based on what they've described, the basic modified x-ufo replaces the stock mechanical gyro (which allows TI-enabled-like flight, even indoors, but with significant limitations) with a set of piezo gyros similar to those used on the DF. This allows the modified x-ufo to to achieve extreme attitudes while remaining stable, but the flight characteristics are similar to a DF without TI: there is no self-leveling.

With TI on, you can always let it go into a hover and then figure out which is the front and fly it back to you. Without TI, by the time you get that sorted out you're liable to crack it up. I really don't like relying on a circuit board for stability.
With the four-rotor 'copters especially, you're always relying on a circuit board (or at least, a circuit) for stability, be it a self-leveling system like a DF with TI or a stock x-ufo, or stability augmentation like a DF without TI or a modified x-ufo. These things won't stay in the air for more than a few seconds without basic stability augmentation (which can be achieved with piezo gyros). But to self-level, they either need horizon sensing (DF with TI) or attitude sensing (stock x-ufo with mechanical gyro, which can go without the piezo gyros as a result: the mech gyro provides both stability and self-leveling, but with serious limitations in the case of the stock x-ufo).

Will

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