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  1. #1
    Glacier Girl's Avatar
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    How not to treat a customer

    First off Marc, if this is in the wrong forum, I apologize, feel free to move it as you see fit.

    This is a little long, but bare with me. Anyhow, a lot of you know me, for those of you who don't, I've been in the electric side of the hobby since early 2004. I am an R/C airplane addict, having dumped more money in birds then some 3rd world countries spend on their air forces. I am an AMA member, a charter member of the Badius Owner's club, probably the biggest forum on any of the sites.
    Also I am the VP of the Badius Boys Flying Club Inc. Which I formed into a non profit corporation and built the flying field for.

    I've always tried to treat everyone with courtesy here on the forums and gave the best info I could in helping folks out. How I would want to be treated. I praise those who do good by me, and now I guess I have to post on someone who has not.

    This is no more then me passing on info to all the others here on how myself and a some others of my club have been wronged in our viewpoint. So just take it as that, more info for you to use when purchasing for your addiction.

    One of my club mates decided to pay me back if you will for buying him an AT-6. He sent me a pair of new Align 3S2100 22C packs, still in the sealed packaging, direct from where he purchased his at the same time. Also another club member bought some of these same packs. Soon after, word got out the packs were not quite what they were supposed to be.

    The club mate who sent me mine let me know he had contacted Frank at Align, and got his replaced. OK, mine other then attaching a Deans connector to, were still sitting in the packaging unused.

    So I emailed Frank, asking if the packs were safe to use, and if they were not, could they be replaced. He emailed me back a couple of days later asking where and when I got them. I scanned the receipt and emailed it to Frank........No reply. I emailed Frank again........no reply. So I called Frank, and he knew who I was. Apparently he got my emails and decided not to answer.

    I asked about getting them replaced and he told me they were now out of the 90 day warranty and I would have to pay 50% to wards new packs. I then reminded Frank, that I had saved my email copies, showing not only my first email but also his reply all just over 60 days after they were purchased, and that was well with in the 90 day warranty.

    Frank then told me he needed a copy of the receipt. What he did with the other copies I sent, I have no idea. So I sent him another. And another after not hearing anything back.
    And guess what, I've not heard boo from him. Mentioning this to some of my club mates I find out about another member going through the same, he running into no help from Frank, after he did some digging and finding out that apparently Align knew these packs were not as advertised, and still sold them to the public.

    Now it's only my opinion, but it almost sounds like Frank, as one of the Align distributors, was/is taking a hit on warranting these packs, and he's decided to blow off consumers till the product warranty has expired and then charge them for something that was known to be defective when sold.

    Not a good way to do business, or treat customers if you plan on staying in business. Maybe he thought I/we would just go away. WRONG! I/ and my club are going to make it a mission to get the word out. Here on the forums and by word of mouth, and we cover a big area.
    Our club alone has members in the US, UK, Canada, Australia, Japan, and even a couple of other countries.

    So there you are. Use this info on customer service when you are purchasing your new packs. You want someone to be there for you after the sale.
    Missing Man Formation, Looking heavenward you can't help but shed a tear, mournful, lonesome, a hole that screams out at you.

  2. #2
    Stingray69's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    Frank at Align knows that they're bad and should replace them under any circumstances. Even past the 90 days. They go puffy after a dozen flights. Good packs treated right should last hundreds of cycles. Why they would make their customers accountable for their mfg decisions is a bad play.
    Stingray

  3. #3
    Glacier Girl's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    Ray, something will come of this. I can't do much legal wise as mine were a gift, so I have no loss per say involved. But we both know a certain someone who also got taken, who will not let this go and is sure to become Align and Assurance RC's worst nightmare.

    Should be interesting if he goes to the press or contacts someone like the Attorney Generals office. He at least lives in the same state. And being he's disabled and a Medal of Freedom Award receipient should not bode well for Align and Assurance R/C's treatment.

    And maybe to add to my warning, I looked at Assurances site this morning, guess whats still being sold and distributed?
    http://www.alignrcusa.com/index.php?...roducts_id=290
    Missing Man Formation, Looking heavenward you can't help but shed a tear, mournful, lonesome, a hole that screams out at you.

  4. #4
    TerryE's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    Disgraceful.

    Terry
    Some people are like slinkies - Not really good for anything but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs.

  5. #5
    Glacier Girl's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    And just another example of what I've run into. Here for your inspection is a copy of my first email to Frank, and his return email, from back in Feb.

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Frank Lock
    To: Brad J. Mitchell
    Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:30 PM
    Subject: Re: Possible problem with new packs?


    When and where were they purchased?

    Frank

    -------Original Message-------

    From: Brad J. Mitchell
    Date: 2/26/2008 3:14:42 PM
    To: frank@alignrcusa.com
    Subject: Possible problem with new packs?

    Frank,
    I heard through the grapevine that there may be a problem with the new Align 3S2100 22C packs. If so I have 2 of them and would like to see about getting them replaced. Neither pack has been used, I just on Sunday soldered on the Deans connectors.
    I do still have the packaging and receipt for them.

    Thanks for your time,

    Brad J. Mitchell



    The photo is the email I received from Frank today. ???? No contact???? Then what the heck was the above email from me and the reply from Frank????
    Or what about the other emails I sent to Frank with his requested copies of receipts? I can show you those too. Only thing I can't show is my phone call to Frank, unless you want me to pull my phone records too. LOL
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    Missing Man Formation, Looking heavenward you can't help but shed a tear, mournful, lonesome, a hole that screams out at you.

  6. #6

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    RE: How not to treat a customer


    GG:

    Thanks for taking the time to report this to us. You have my support in boycotting Allign, a class action suit appears warrented.

  7. #7
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    Align.
    Right, got it.

  8. #8
    suitcase's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    Maybe you all should turn this over to Greg Hahn. I'm sure he can get it resolved, after all, he accused us, AMA members and hobbiests of ragging manufactorers unfairly in his article in the AMA mag last month. According to him, I suppose we're to just turn the other cheek so to speak. I say hold this kinda of marketing up to the light and let everyone see it and decided for themselves where they want to spend their hard earned bucks.[>:]
    Hanger:Sig Mayhem 3D w/YS110, Jerry\'s Big Boy w/YS110, Funtana 40 w/Saito 82, Hobby Lobby Extra 300 w/Hacker 20/20L

  9. #9
    TerryE's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    GG:
    Any updates??
    Some people are like slinkies - Not really good for anything but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs.

  10. #10
    Glacier Girl's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    Yeah Terry, got an email back for Frank at Assurance r/c, stating they only are a distributor for Align, and only warranty what they sell. ???

    Huh?, maybe I'm wrong here but if they (Frank/ Assurance) is/are the distributor, whom ever I got the packs from I would think had to get them from Align's distributor (Frank/ Assurance) in the US.


    Unless they were secretly smuggled in thru Area 51, on an alien test hop, straight from where ever they are manufactured.

    Or the Easter Bunny, no wait I got them before that, must of been Santa.

    Funny thing thou on this not handling them for warranty, the kind club mate who bought these for me had his replaced by Frank at Assurance. All from the same purchace location.

    So now maybe it's selective warranties.


    What ever, like I said before I can handle the loss, but other's may not be able to do so, so at least the info's out on dealing with them. [:@]
    Missing Man Formation, Looking heavenward you can't help but shed a tear, mournful, lonesome, a hole that screams out at you.

  11. #11
    Swift427's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    1. Isn’t this typical of our new global economy in which products are no longer assembled in America (being made elsewhere), but are now both made and assembled somewhere in China with Chinese corporate headquarters. (Align=HongKong). Is Frank caught between a rock and a hard place.

    2. If you think you’ve been ill-treated how do you think the US distributors for Align feel? Is there a bigger picture here that eludes our own immediate self-interests and wounded pride for being ignored by someone we once believed was looking out for our best interests as a preferred customer. Besides the same LiPo manufacturer that made these questionable LiPos may be the same manufacture that makes LiPos for five other brands, all of which would have rejected the defect or mislabeling.

    3. American distributors with Chinese ties and the proverbial “cut-throat competition versus profit margin” may decide their only course of action is to ignore the problem or say something more socially/politically correct like“We’re doing everything we can to resolve/address this problem (blah, blah, blah).” Maybe it’s the age old marketing gimmick that the price was too good to be true. In other words would your friend have given you these LiPos as a payback gift if they had cost as much as other top quality 3S 2100mAh 22C LiPos costing at least $89.95.

    4. A bigger picture here is your own admission that “I am an R/C airplane addict, having dumped more money in birds then some 3rd world countries spend on their air forces.” My point is that whether its Frank, Tower, HobbyLobby, etc they will respond or not respond to a customer depending on a variety of issues too voluminous to even try to simplify here for internet attention deficit disorder viewing.

    5. With that said I believe you are doing the right thing, but don’t let it get the best of you. It may be a simple matter that Align=HongKong took Frank (as a US distributor) for an easy mark by selling them a ton of LiPos that Align=HongKong knew were defective or mislabeled. Align got their $$$ in exchange for what Frank thought was a good deal only to later discover that his company’s compulsive sales ethics were skewed a little too much toward me,myself,and i profit margin than customer satisfaction.

    6. It’s possible that the same LiPo manufacturing facility that makes up packs for others knew darn well that they could never get away pawning off mislabeled LiPos or defective packs to E-flite, Electrifly, CommonSenseRC or even as Polyquests to CBPs, Isn’t that the China lesson we need to be occasionally reminded of: If it’s too good of a deal = Buyer Beware.

    7. What my enquiring mind would like to know is this: Are the packs defective or are they mislabeled? In other words are they actually a 12C or 15C pack and will function perfectly fine at 12C pack? How does your “defective” Align pack match up in dimension and weight to other 2100mAh 22C packs? Are your Align packs actually defective or more likely mislabeled at too high a capacity rating?

    8. These batteries were gifts to you. Is the person who gave you these two LiPos bearing this torch as boldly as you? If not, Why? Maybe, you just need to let it go before you bring even more discomfort to a friend who may now feel like he’s caught between a rock and a hard place.

    9. If I was this friend and had learned of the amount of time and effort you’ve expended on this gift gone bad I couldn’t help, but wonder if you felt like you somehow got cheated and I(as the friend) was partially responsible.

    10. Friendships are more important than trying to prove your friendship by trying to prove someone else’s business ethics as unethical. Let it go. Afterall, “business ethics” will always be a two-edged sword if not an oxymoron. Then again I could be wrong and your friend paid $95 for each pack, and all the time I spent composing this reply was not that constructive or helpful.

    I was going to setup a PayPal account so I could buy a couple items from Align in HongKong. After a few emails back & forth with Align and phone call with a PayPal rep I decided the path I was pursuing was one I could live without and possibly be better off or no worst off for never buying direct from China or ever needing to use a PayPal account.
    Never Give Up, Never Slow Down, Never Grow Old, and Never Ever Die Young

  12. #12
    Glacier Girl's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    Swift,

    You are absolutly right, I honestly feel that Frank, as you had stated bought into a to good to be true, load of packs. And when the warranty claims started comming in, he/ they found out the so called deal was now costing them money. So much for a quick profit.

    And so the now changing warranty policies.

    And yep you are right you take a chance with the so called China stuff, sometimes you get burnt. As a consumer you took a chance and it didn't work, no one to blame except yourself.

    Then again, if a company does the same, they have two choices. One, take care of their customer, at a loss. Or ignior or blow off the customer. One company may take a hit now, but live to stay in business as customers will return to a place that does take care of them.
    Second company will loose out on multiple ends. Stock no one wants, and no business from past and future customers, as their cost saving measure kills them.


    As for my packs. Honestly I've never used them, just in case something came about. They still sit in the packaging they came in. So I can't really answer on what they will or won't do.

    And just now I thought of something. Look back at my first email. I asked if they were ok to use, and if not, could they be replaced. Never got told they were good or not good.

    For all I know these packs could be perfectly fine for my useage. Heck could have been easy for Frank just to have lied to me, and told me they were ok. Instead of just ignoiring me.



    Anyhow, I have no hard feelings towards my friend. What he did was unasked for. He was just giving me something in return for something I had sent him. And he was the one who told me of the problem and who to talk to to get them replaced.

    Otherwise, if I had used the packs and they went poof, I would have just blamed myself.

    Nah no bad feeling here. You would have to know the characters that make up our club, I don't think one of us could ever harbor hard feelings towards another one. But that's just us.
    We're like family. We can screw around with any of the other members, but heaven help an outsider who messes with family.
    Missing Man Formation, Looking heavenward you can't help but shed a tear, mournful, lonesome, a hole that screams out at you.

  13. #13
    Swift427's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    A couple years ago I bought some XPVs to play/mod with. I called Jacks in California to find out if they sell just the little 7.4v LiPo and if so how much it costs. I was then told that they had gotten some complaints that the LiPos I had (ones in black protective case) were supposedly defective. They sent me a pre-postage paid envelope to use for returning my three LiPos and said they were expecting a new shipment from their overseas supplier anytime and would send me free replacements. All I needed to do was to first mail them my questionable LiPos.

    Well, I never mailed them in as there really wasn't anything wrong with them. My guess is that some of the hotshots that bought these XPVs were misusing/abusing the batteries. I think the new LiPos have a builtin safety device that limits a hotshots ability to improvise.

    Anyway, what impressed me was here is a toy plane company that realized their responsibility to be PROactice to the point of assuming all these LiPos were defective when it may have been more an issure of misuse/abuse by 'know enough to be dangerous' big kids.
    Never Give Up, Never Slow Down, Never Grow Old, and Never Ever Die Young

  14. #14

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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    A few years ago I distributed a line of products from Sky and Technology, the same company that makes the Quark ESC's. I ended up refunding over $10,000 to customers and it almost put me out of business. I depended on Sky and Technology to refund the money I had paid for the product. The "profit" I had made was my responsibility to refund. Sky and Technology just truned their back on me and I ate the loss.
    Frank should refund the money for all of the product. It is his responsibility businesswise and moraley.

  15. #15

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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    This is the same battery advertised on clearence at www.allerc.com for 40.00. I was about to buy it but after reading this I guess I won't

  16. #16
    Glacier Girl's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    MAKODS, No the one for $40.00 is the 20C version, supposedly a good one.
    The one right below it, 3S2100 22C is the bad one.

    The 20C pack is what was given in exchange to those that were able to get the 22C packs replaced.

    I see they have gone up in price on the site you listed. If memory serves me, my 2 packs were under $100.00 when they were bought.

    Hmm, maybe they jacked the price to cover their costs, that way if they have to replace them, they don't take such a big hit.
    Missing Man Formation, Looking heavenward you can't help but shed a tear, mournful, lonesome, a hole that screams out at you.

  17. #17
    Swift427's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    Relationship of 3S1P LiPo Battery Capacity To Its Charge Time.

    For the purpose of this example I'm assuming not all LiPo chargers are the same during the final stage of charging so only charge to 4v per cell, and assume the 3S LiPo has been equally discharged to 3v cut-off and has rebounded to 3.1v or 9.3v per 3S pack. These are new packs that are being condition cycled 3-5 times.

    1. How long(-+range) should it take to charge a 2000mAh 10C at 1C=2amps?

    2. How long(-+range) should it take to charge a 2000mAh 20C at 1C=2amps?

    3. Does it take twice as long to charge at .5C=1amp?
    Never Give Up, Never Slow Down, Never Grow Old, and Never Ever Die Young

  18. #18
    Swift427's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    I was hoping my previous post “Relationship of 3S1P Lipo Battery To Its Charge Time” would have resulted in at least one head scratching(?) reply by now as well as pointing out my questional?faulty thinking with regard to capacity and charge time.

    I think this goes to show that for many of us (including me) we aren’t really sure what is the best/proper way to pretest a new, over-discharged, questionable or aging lipo. I’m not sure either so I’ll start another thread later this week.

    Something you can first help me with in getting this new thread started is locating a US supplier of an inexpensive battery monitor like the one for $4.95 from United Hobbies/Hong Kong shown below.

    http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...y_Monitor_2-6S
    Never Give Up, Never Slow Down, Never Grow Old, and Never Ever Die Young

  19. #19
    Glacier Girl's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    Swift, I like the little gizmo from Hobby City. Kinda neat.

    Honestly I learned my lesson a long time ago, and it only took one time to learn it, on proper handling of lipos.

    I now always charge my packs with an Astro Blinky attached to the pigtail on the pack.
    It keeps the cells in balance, while charging, and can be used to check a pack off charge to see if balance is being held.

    Ok as for the original subject matter. If the weather here ever straightens out, I'm going to run these packs on my Slow Stick, pulling approx 17 amps.

    That's less then 10 C so well see how they hold up.

    Oh and Swift, I just noticed your avitar, looks strikingly similar to a certain Camel and pilot I have in my fleet.
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    Missing Man Formation, Looking heavenward you can't help but shed a tear, mournful, lonesome, a hole that screams out at you.

  20. #20
    Swift427's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    ORIGINAL: Glacier Girl
    Ok as for the original subject matter. If the weather here ever straightens out, I'm going to run these packs on my Slow Stick, pulling approx 17 amps.
    As valuable a little critter as the Astro Blinky is (I have one) there is only so much it can tell us.

    1. What method/device will you be using to check the open resting voltage of each cell before charging, half way through charging to 11.8v, and after charging to 12.45v?

    2. What method/device will you be using to check the actual mAhr input capacity and output capacity of these two lipos compared to the vendors rating when cycle conditioning them with three charge/discharge cycles before flying?

    3. What charge rate (0.25C, 0.5C, 0.75C) will you be using for the three conditioning cycles?

    4. What discharge rate (2C, 4C, 8C) and LVC will you be using for the three conditioning cycles?

    If you are first using the Blinky to determine how out-of-balance the cells are let us know how long it takes for the Blinky to stop blinking (5min, 10min, 20min, etc) before charging, halfway through charging to 11.8v, and after charging to 12.45v during each of these three open resting periods of the three conditioning cycles.

    IMO, it is not only important, but mandatory to condition cycle a questionable lipo a few times when attempting to equalize it and determine its condition before flying. Would this not be a great learning experience for all of us, and more information to provide Frank if a refund is due.
    Never Give Up, Never Slow Down, Never Grow Old, and Never Ever Die Young

  21. #21
    Glacier Girl's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    Swift, as I've been assigned my HDL by the wifey for up coming 3 day weekend, I can run the cycles while I'm taking care of the list.

    I have the capability to run discharge and charge at any rate, and no problem hooking up a meter in line to verify what the charger is telling me( Astro 109) I can also meter the 3 cells individually for voltage for you in what ever steps you want.

    Just give me what paramaters you want run, and I'll run the cycles and post the info for you.
    Missing Man Formation, Looking heavenward you can't help but shed a tear, mournful, lonesome, a hole that screams out at you.

  22. #22
    Swift427's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    This is what I would do if I were in your shoes this weekend. Gosh, I feel like a complete GEEK suggesting that you will spend Memorial Day weekend on this task. Depending on the actual condition of your two lipos one or both may not make it past S. or V.

    I've proofed on the GO so if there is some confusion with the following let me know.

    Q. Record the open resting voltage of each cell (1, 2, 3) of each stored battery (A, B) before connecting the Astro Blinky.

    R. Assuming the 3 cells of each battery are within 0.20 volts of each other and each battery is somewhere between 9.0v and 11.8v connect the Blinky and record how long it takes for the LEDs to stop blinking. If at least one of the LEDs is still blinking after 30 minutes stop and take another voltage reading to record the change from Q. above. If one of the cells shows a noticeable difference then chances are your lipo is defective and the poor cell may puff when charging or discharging during the following steps. If you don’t get a voltage reading on one of the cells or one of them is below 2.7v try charging the lipo at .5A for 2-3 minutes and recheck it again. If one of the cells is still below 3.0v or the cells are too out of balance then you may want to STOP and DISCARD the lipo; especially being that the lipo has been stored all this time at a subpar voltage.

    S. If the cells are relatively close, but the Blinky still occasionally blinks after 30 minutes record which of the three cells are still blinking. Go ahead and charge the cells at 0.24C = .5A (assuming they are 2100mAh) for 30 minutes and immediately record the voltage of each cell. Rest the LiPo for 1 hour with the Blinky connected and then record the voltage of each cell. Record any noticeable change in the blinking; especially if two of the cells LEDs are blinking and the other cells LED never blinks.

    T. If everything appears OK (safe) go ahead and resume charging at .5A until 12.45V is reached. Again record any suspect blinking during this time and if a cell is suspect you may want to monitor and record any rise in temperature for signs of too much internal cell resistance.

    U. After charging to 12.45v record the voltage of each cell and then let it rest for 1 hour with the Blinky connected. Record how long the LEDs blink during this rest and which LED blinks the least. Record the open voltage of each cell again after the 1 hour rest.

    V. Discharge rate of *'2.38C' = 5 amps (based on vendor *'2100mAh 22C' label) to a LVC of 9.6V and record how many minutes have elapsed. Record the voltage of each cell. Let it rest for 1 hour and record the voltage of each cell again. Assuming you were using a watt meter record the expended mAh capacity during this discharge cycle. Monitor and record any significant rise in cell temperature.

    W. If at least one of the lipos have made it this far and things look favorable then proceed to the next cycle with a charge rate of 0.48C = 1A until it reaches 11.8v (with the Blinky connected to monitor any indication of a subpar cell) and record how many mAh of capacity have been put back into the lipo at 11.8v. Continue uninterrupted with the charging to 12.45v and record the voltage of each cell. With the lipo resting record how long the Blinky LEDs continued to blink, and if any LED (cell) didn’t blink at all. After the blinking stops record each cells voltage.

    X. Discharge at 4.76C = 10 amps to LVC of 9.6v recording how many minutes have elapsed and how much mAh capacity has been used up. Monitor and record any significant rise in cell temperature. Anything below 120 degrees is OK, but at 4.76C it should NOT get this hot. Let it rest for 1 hour and record the bounce back voltage of each cell. By now you should have some idea of the lipos 3S capacity having recorded the depleted mAhr capacity from the a watt meter.

    Y. If everything is still a GO charge it at 0.8C = 1.6 amps if you believe a fully charged lipo has a capacity closer to 2000mAh. If you believe the capacity it closer to 1875mAh then a 0.8C charge would = 1.5A. Use your Blinky to monitor any indication that one cell may be lagging (not blinking). When it reaches 11.8v record how many mAhr have been put back into the lipo. Don't interupt/stop the charging until it reaches 12.45 volts. Record how many mAhr have been put back into the lipo. Do some figuring to determine how many minutes you can fly your SlowStick until a LVC of 9.6v

    Z. If everything looks favorable for flying your SlowStick GO for it. Keep track of your total flying time with respect to your style (conservative to WOT). Quesstimate the flying time of each lipo as it approaches(9.6v) the ESC LVC of 9.0v, and then record the actual/approximate flying time time. Let it rest 1 hour and record the bounce back volatge of each cell. Charge to 11.8 volts and estimate what you now figure to be the mAh capacity at a full charge. If it is 2,000mAh then charging at 0.8C = 1.6A. Charge to 11.8 volts for storage. Record charge time, mAhr capacity put back in, and the voltage of each cell after the Blinky stops blinking. Put in storage if both lipos prove their quality is worth at least $40.

    When you record your results you can reference them as QA1=3.83v, QA2=3.81v, QA3=3.85v, etc. and XB bounce back from 9.6v was ___?___v. You certainly DON’T NEED to report all of your findings on this thread, but at least you will have a record of them should someone for example want to know if two of the three LEDs continued to blink for more than 5 minutes at the end of W. or the end of Z. and which LED(cell) didn’t appear to blink at all.

    I believe I'm finally done with editing revisions so now you can make a hard copy. Hope this doesn't ruin your weekend, but rather rewards you with some enjoyable SlowStick Flying and two good lipos.
    Never Give Up, Never Slow Down, Never Grow Old, and Never Ever Die Young

  23. #23
    Glacier Girl's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    Ok, no problem. I'll keep everything outside the shop so I can keep an eye on them while testing, and so nothing big happens if something goes terribly wrong.[X(]

    Will report back my findings on Sunday or Monday.
    Missing Man Formation, Looking heavenward you can't help but shed a tear, mournful, lonesome, a hole that screams out at you.

  24. #24
    Swift427's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    The last three sentences of R. (“If one of … to … a subpar voltage.”) should have been added at the end of Q. Recording the first Q. procedure will be good indication of your lipo’s GO or NO-GO status. Hopefully, your lipos are just mislabeled (e.g. 22C vs 12C) with each 3S pack’s individual cells having equal integrity.

    Noticed a few typos, but otherwise Q-to-Z seems OK. Q-to-Z are just my 2 cents as you are a more experienced pilot than me. I’m looking forward to discussing your thoughts on the usefulness/need to cycle condition any new lipo at least once or twice before ever flying. Or at bare minimum check each new pack’s individual cell voltage before, during (1/2 charge), and after charging.

    Every good LHS in the good ol’ USA should stock these handy little battery monitors. http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/s...y_Monitor_2-6S

    P.S. >>> Just got a thought. Is it possible for a manufacture to accidently mix together two different cell C ratings in the same 3S pack (e.g. 12C & 22C)??? If after doing Q-V and it looks like cells of unequal capacity are paired together you may be able to redeem them by making up one new pack from the 6 individual cells. I've never been faced with this prospect, plus it's a little risky unless you happen to be electric handy savvy.
    Never Give Up, Never Slow Down, Never Grow Old, and Never Ever Die Young

  25. #25
    Glacier Girl's Avatar
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    RE: How not to treat a customer

    Swift, anything is possible, re an assembly line person screwing up and putting a pack together with mismatched cells, thou the probability is pretty low I would think.

    More likely the mfg's run of cells could have not met buyers specs, performance wise, and were packaged and sold using same id's, to unsuspecting customers, anyhow.

    And as for taking apart cells and remating them into a new pack, no problem. I have the proper materials/ skills/ and respect of them to do it.

    Anyhow, after doing all the trimming and mowing last night, 2 off the HD list, I was wound up, so I started the testing.

    Here's what I have so far. And so far it's not looking good.[&:]

    Pack QA1 Pack QA2

    Initial pack voltage 12.09 V - 12.25 V

    Individual cell voltages 4.04/ 4.02/ 4.03 - 4.07/ 4.09/ 4.09

    Volts after balance - 4.01/ 4.02/ 4.02 - 4.07/ 4.08/ 4.08

    Time to balance - 20 min 30 sec - 7 min 13 sec

    Balance lights lit - # 1 & #3 #2 & #3

    Volts after .5 A charge to 12.45 V - 4.13/ 4.15/ 4.15 - 4.15/ 4.15/ 4.15

    1 Hr rest Blinky on * - 4.15/ 4.15/ 4.15 - 4.15/ 4.15/ 4.15

    Volts after 5 A discharge to 9.6 V - 3.51/ 2.98/ 3.16[X(] - 3.09/ 3.25/ 3.26[X(]

    Discharge time - 17min 32 sec - 17 min 28 sec

    MAH removed - 1.70 - 1.68

    Volts after 1 hour rest - 3.54/ 3.20/ 3.58 - 3.21/ 3.67/ 3.68


    Notes so far. None of the cells seemed to vary in heat differences, but both packs felt very slightly puffy after initial discharge and after resting 1 hour.

    Pack QA1 is showing a bad imbalance already, cell #2 is dropping more then #1 & #3.

    Pack QA2, ditto. Cell #1 is down vs cells #2 & #3.

    At least from the above, at only a 5 amp discharge, pack balance is off, leading to the conclusion that at a higher discharge rate I'm going to see a much larger discrepency in cell voltages, and a possible failure of one cell in each pack.[:@]




    *Blinky on , Pack QA1, cells #2 & #3 cycled for 16 min, before going out, no cycles performed by Blinky on pack QA2 (balanced?)
    Missing Man Formation, Looking heavenward you can't help but shed a tear, mournful, lonesome, a hole that screams out at you.


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