E-Flite Helicopters Discuss the line of E-Flite mini and micro helis including the Blade CP, CP Pro, Blade CX, etc

Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

Reply
Old 06-05-2007, 08:44 PM
  #1
Nitronuts
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Clinton Township , MI
Posts: 136
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

My tail motor is failing or failed, looking to go DD, whats the latest DD setup and where can I get it? Tried the search but just came up with old posts from last year. Thanks in advance!
Nitronuts is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2007, 02:19 AM
  #2
mrasmm
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sometown, Northern Utah
Posts: 4,432
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

basically it's the cn12 rxc motor with a 3020 press on prop and you can use the stock motor holder or get the flimsy gws one and go from there... A bunch of people in the weeee forum had bad luck with this setup though.... if you're not doing way hard 3d, you might also look up the dual tail mod, such as the one from microheli.
mrasmm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2007, 03:19 PM
  #3
Nitronuts
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Clinton Township , MI
Posts: 136
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

My hobby shop has this motor GWS EDF502 EDF50 MOTOR it looks the same, I wonder if it will work.
Nitronuts is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2007, 04:47 PM
  #4
mrasmm
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sometown, Northern Utah
Posts: 4,432
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

http://www.gwsus.com/english/product...stem/edp50.htm

http://www.gwsus.com/english/product/MOTOR/MOTOR.HTM

http://www.gwsus.com/english/product...stem/edf50.htm

Basically the edf just means that it the motor goes on a ducted unit, and I do believe the edf and the edp 50 are the same as the cn12rxc, just make sure you get the high voltage version. A bunch of guys over on the weeee forum got this deal, and a bunch had problems, we never really figured out why though. If it was the motor the supplier a bad batch, the dd system over all, how they were installed because it was something new, over sized props ect ect ect
http://www.eboyztoyz.com/index.php?op=showitem&sku=8350
mrasmm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2007, 07:04 PM
  #5
Nitronuts
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Clinton Township , MI
Posts: 136
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

Cool, thank you!
Nitronuts is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2007, 09:12 PM
  #6
Nitronuts
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Clinton Township , MI
Posts: 136
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

I cannot get the cn12rxc to sit straight in the stock motor holder, do I have to modify it? Also I think I read somewhere you have to reverse polarity for this motor, is that true?
Nitronuts is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2007, 01:03 AM
  #7
mrasmm
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sometown, Northern Utah
Posts: 4,432
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

well ideally you want to match the polarity that is on the back of the motor or the brushes will be in a leading position. As far as teh stock holder just a little bit of trimming with a dremmel or simular and it should fit =)

Just make sure that the air is blowing the right way and that the letters on the prop face the direction of that the air is blowing =)
mrasmm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2007, 11:05 AM
  #8
mike620
 
mike620's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: La Mirada, CA
Posts: 67
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: mrasmm


Just make sure that the air is blowing the right way and that the letters on the prop face the direction of that the air is blowing =)
Actually, I think I get more thrust by flipping the prop the other way. I just tested that right now, and with the 3020 on the right side of prop (looking at it tail-in) I get a higher rpm, but not as must thrust as I do with the letters on the left. I did this bench testing. Also, the side with the letters has a matte finish whereas the oppisite side has a somewhat polished look. I have black and orange props and their identical. This is the setup I've been running, and it holds great, but it needs more power because after I'd say 70%(+ or - pitch) travel in idle up, it just will not stay. BTW: the tail holds like a billion times better in idle up not a little better, a LOT better. Now I can descend quickly without cutting power to the main cuz my cheap tower pro esc cuts power at not that low of a stick level, not to mention a harsh startup.
mike620 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2007, 04:10 PM
  #9
Nitronuts
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Clinton Township , MI
Posts: 136
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

Ok installed the GWS tail motor and prop and held great, then after about 3 minutes of hovering the tail quit and the bird spun helplessly to the ground, the tail motor was so hot I could barely touch it, shes a goner, what happend here?
Nitronuts is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2007, 04:46 PM
  #10
rcmiket
 
rcmiket's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: El Paso, TX
Posts: 5,077
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

Don't feel to bad I had one burn up in 3 seconds. Seems like those motors are junk. I gave up after 2 motors. Most of us who tried the DD thing just gave up. Good luck.
rcmiket is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2007, 06:42 PM
  #11
Wnuk
 
Wnuk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Hunlock Creek, PA
Posts: 1,148
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

Your not the only one nitro. Seems there are very few people who have had success with a DD tail. I went that route and had the EXACT same experience you did. I'm not sure what prop you have but using the 3020 seemd to yield better results then the 4520 seems to be too much for it. Turn your gain and prop down low and work up from there. You MAY find success.

BTW, the Dual Tail didn't work for me either. I got major glitching when trying to turn to motors. I finally gave that up and am now back to stock. I plan on keeping it that way. In FFF my tail holds very well, it's just in hovering I can't seem to get it rock solid.

Wnuk is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2007, 07:18 PM
  #12
mrasmm
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sometown, Northern Utah
Posts: 4,432
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?


Quote:
ORIGINAL: mike620

Actually, I think I get more thrust by flipping the prop the other way. I just tested that right now, and with the 3020 on the right side of prop (looking at it tail-in) I get a higher rpm, but not as must thrust as I do with the letters on the left. I did this bench testing. Also, the side with the letters has a matte finish whereas the oppisite side has a somewhat polished look. I have black and orange props and their identical. This is the setup I've been running, and it holds great, but it needs more power because after I'd say 70%(+ or - pitch) travel in idle up, it just will not stay. BTW: the tail holds like a billion times better in idle up not a little better, a LOT better. Now I can descend quickly without cutting power to the main cuz my cheap tower pro esc cuts power at not that low of a stick level, not to mention a harsh startup.
lol, woops, I wasn't talking about the 3020, I was talking about the 4530 =)


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Nitronuts

Ok installed the GWS tail motor and prop and held great, then after about 3 minutes of hovering the tail quit and the bird spun helplessly to the ground, the tail motor was so hot I could barely touch it, shes a goner, what happend here?
yeah this is what I was talking about. With the 3020 prop you have to spin the motor backwards so the brushes are in the leading position. Open up your motor to confirm it for sure, but it probably bent the brushes back over themselves.

The motor needs to spin the other way for this application. All it really needs is the reverse endbell.

You might try breaking one in forwards and see if that doesn't get it to seat better before you try whirling it up. Mine is still on the bench, so I haven't messed with figuring it all out yet, but when i get to it, this is what I am going to be doing =)
mrasmm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2007, 08:25 PM
  #13
Nitronuts
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Clinton Township , MI
Posts: 136
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

Im using the 3020 prop, I tried another motor and man it holds great, but after a few minutes it started getting really hot. Why doesnt John Adams have this problem? I wonder what makes some work and others dont - really strange. I guess I will be going back to the stock setup.[:@]
Nitronuts is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2007, 09:05 PM
  #14
ArrowNaughtic
 
ArrowNaughtic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Kent, WA
Posts: 1,994
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

Are you using the stock CP tail motor mount? Those DD tails run backwards compared to the N30's Eflite has. The prop has to be on the opposite side of the tail........... and it pulls rather than pushes. I took one of my 4530 props and cut it down to 3 1/4 " but haven't installed it yet. I also did a breakin on that motor and do so on all my brushed motors, I am still running the one of my $3 BPhobbies tails and the main has been on since I bought the heli used last Jan. Granted, all I have done mostly is hovoring and some limited FF. I have not experienced any issues except the stock tail doesn't keep up with the main. I have seen a number of those DD tail setups fail, I think even choppersrules mounted his on the other side of the tail boom, and still had them smoke. Makes me nervous about installing it now. That is like 9 out of 10 that have created hate and discontent.



Quote:
ORIGINAL: Nitronuts

Im using the 3020 prop, I tried another motor and man it holds great, but after a few minutes it started getting really hot. Why doesnt John Adams have this problem? I wonder what makes some work and others dont - really strange. I guess I will be going back to the stock setup.[:@]

__________________________________________________ __________________________________


Of all the things I ever lost....................................... I miss my mind the most!
ArrowNaughtic is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2007, 02:09 PM
  #15
Nitronuts
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Clinton Township , MI
Posts: 136
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

Yes Im using the stock tail motor mount. Are you saying it has to be installed on the opposite side of the boom then the stock motor?
Nitronuts is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2007, 10:40 PM
  #16
mrasmm
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sometown, Northern Utah
Posts: 4,432
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

well kyles stacy's is done with the stock motor mount, and on the same side as the stock motor mount. dunno if that says anything.
mrasmm is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2007, 01:20 PM
  #17
orlbuzz
 
orlbuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ORLANDO, FL
Posts: 318
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

I have followed this thread with interest because I have been running the CN12-RXC motor with the 3020 prop for two or more months. I didn't break in the first motor and it didn't last as long, but it still lasted at least a month. I broke the second one in and it is still going strong. I don't do 3D, yet, but it holds strong on full throttle climb outs and decents. It is mounted in the stock t. motor holder. I used a dremel to round out the flat side and put CA on the outside to beef it up. The letters on the prop are facing the motor (faces the left as viewed from the rear).

I DO use the G90 gyro and it's switch is in the reverse position. I also use a GWS esc. To my knowledge, this is the setup both Kyle Stacey and John Adams use. Kyle may use a different prop., I don't remember for sure.

I tried to find out in another forum whether there were any physical differences in the CN12-RXC and the CN12-RLC that we could actually see. Here is the link, but I don't know how reliable this member is, although he seems to be regarded as an authority. He also uses "GWS" in his name.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=697337

One possibility, I suppose, is that those of us that have had success are using the G90 servo with the "reverse" switch on, but the motor connected with the correct polarity. I just realized that another difference may be the use of the separate esc instead of the stock 3n1.

One other note. If the stock motor runs in the opposite direction from the CN12-RXC, remember that the stock motor is geared, therefore reversing the direction the prop spins. ACTUALLY, lol, I just compared the stock prop to the 3020 and they have opposite pitch, so the motors MUST turn the same direction. The effective difference is that my tail rotor is turning clockwise as viewed from the right and the stock tail rotor turns counter-clockwise as viewed from the right. I know that aerodynamically this is not proper, but Hey, it works!

I hope this helps someone, as I really like the DD t. motor. I had hoped to get a more definitive answer on identifying the two motors. Maybe someone else will post an answer.

orlbuzz
orlbuzz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2007, 02:01 PM
  #18
ArrowNaughtic
 
ArrowNaughtic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Kent, WA
Posts: 1,994
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

This is directly from the www.bladecprepair.com website. He installed the GWS motor mount on his and it is on the opposite side of the tail. That is why I broke mine in according to polarity and will be using the supplied tail motor mount. I will add a CF rod with bead support to help stiffen the flimsy tail fin on it tho.


__________________________________________________ __________________________________


Of all the things I ever lost....................................... I miss my mind the most!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Qo41055.jpg
Views:	164
Size:	33.8 KB
ID:	700564  
ArrowNaughtic is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2007, 04:55 PM
  #19
Truglodite
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Sac, CA
Posts: 851
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

perhaps it could be some ppl are using the low voltage motors and having no success. i know the edf motor we're supposed to be using is in fact designed to turn ccw, and on our stock tail mounts will turn cw. besides the brushes not being designed for cw, they might also have incorrect timing as well. perhaps the h in the edf50-H part stands for heli or something? maybe it's meant for cw? not sure about all the tech specs, but they might be on he gws site?

anyways, my edf50h motor (gws 0320 prop) has been through at least an hour of flight and still checks in at 1.8A @ WOT, like new. i broke it in cw @ 3V for 45min, which may have helped some.

true, the DD still isn't quite enough to counter a 60W BL main. if something better comes along i'll give it a go, but until then, i feel shorter tail motor life is the price you have to pay to get the most out of a cpp. it's what gives me the best results anyways.

-kev
Truglodite is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2007, 06:54 PM
  #20
orlbuzz
 
orlbuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ORLANDO, FL
Posts: 318
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

Looking at the GWS site it appears that the EDF refers to the ducted fan unit complete.
http://www.gws.com.tw/english/produc...stem/edf50.htm
If you scroll down, you will see the "H" version uses the CN12-RXC motor.

The EDP refers to what they call "direct drive power systems" (props, motors, gearboxes)
http://www.gws.com.tw/english/produc...system/edp.htm

The important thing here to me is that they both use the CN12-RXC motor. (NOT the CN12-RLC motor)

Trug, not to start an argument, but I just hooked up one of the CN12-RXC motors to a AA cell and it turns CW. I did it twice to be sure I was seeing it correctly! To reinforce this, if you look at Tower Hobbies description of this motor they say, "This is the stock replacement Geared Tail Motor Set for the GWS Dragonfly II. This motor drives the tail rotor blades." If you look at the picture of the DragonflyII http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXHEX6&P=PU you will see that it is mounted on the left side and pitch of the tail rotor appears to be the same as the 3020. Therefore, CW motor turning gear becomes CCW, turning prop (rotor) with the same pitch as 3020 on opposite side of heli, results in pushing air to the right as seen from above heli.

One thing did come to mind when testing the motor. It would be REALLY easy to damage the motor when pressing the "press-on" rotor on. I've found the easiest way to do this is to have the motor mounted in the heli, move the capacitor out of the way, and firmly press the shaft into the rotor, using your thumb, as it rests on a hard surface (table, workbench, etc.). I know some are using the prop adapter and this shouldn't be a concern.

Bad motors? Wrong motors? I don't know, just throwing out ideas. I like mine.

orlbuzz


orlbuzz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2007, 08:05 PM
  #21
ArrowNaughtic
 
ArrowNaughtic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Kent, WA
Posts: 1,994
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

Ok.....now i am confused , scared, and unsure. You are both using stock BCP tail motor mounts? I broke my motor in by hooking the positive lead from the battery to the positive side (as marked) on the motor. I never paid attention to which way the shaft was spinning. My main concern is that is it more efficient to push the air to the right side as looking down or to pull it across? I want to mount it where its most efficient and hopefully least damaging to the motor itself. Could you guys post a pic of your DD setup for me please? I am starting to feel like I may have been a little too sure of myself and now am second guessing my decision.


__________________________________________________ __________________________________


Of all the things I ever lost....................................... I miss my mind the most!
ArrowNaughtic is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2007, 08:44 PM
  #22
orlbuzz
 
orlbuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ORLANDO, FL
Posts: 318
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

This is not mine, it is Nick Maxwells. Mine looks exactlly like this. There is a 23 page thread here: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=580952 about the DD t. motor. Be warned, the numbers are confusing there too, lol.

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Sq47775.jpg
Views:	54
Size:	42.7 KB
ID:	700769  
orlbuzz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2007, 09:37 PM
  #23
orlbuzz
 
orlbuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ORLANDO, FL
Posts: 318
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

Don't mean to double post, but I just ran across this thread by accident. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=382246

CW rotation and neutral timing stated by one poster and confirmed by the CEO of GWS.

orlbuzz
orlbuzz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2007, 09:50 PM
  #24
ArrowNaughtic
 
ArrowNaughtic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Kent, WA
Posts: 1,994
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

TY so much orlbuzz........... You have succeeded in changing my stubborn ways and trying it with the stock mount. I have a 4530 prop I cut down to the same dimensions as the 3020......... I will be starting with 10% proportional and work my way up. Just out of curiousity, how much did you turn yers down after switching to the DD setup?


__________________________________________________ __________________________________


Of all the things I ever lost....................................... I miss my mind the most!
ArrowNaughtic is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2007, 09:59 PM
  #25
orlbuzz
 
orlbuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: ORLANDO, FL
Posts: 318
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default RE: Blade CP Pro DIRECT DRIVE TAIL ?

ArrowNaughtic,

Sorry, I never used the DD t. motor with the 3n1. I have all separates and a DX7 Tx. with the AR 6100 Rx. E-Flite BL m. motor and esc., G90 HH gyro, gws brushed esc for the tail.

BTW, take a good look at Nick Maxwell's picture to make sure the pitch of your rotor (blade) is the same, or you WILL have to reverse your wires.

orlbuzz
orlbuzz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:27 AM.