Wayne Miller

Hi Matt,

Thanks for the help, what I was doing was either drawing it in the graphic package, or taking a picture of it, saving it as a *.jpg and then trying to "upload images" as a an attachment. I was wondering how people got such clear pictures. Mine always looked good in my graphic package on my screen, but not when I uploaded them. I'll give it a try next time.

As for listening, I'm very sorry if I offended you, I've read a lot of your posts in both this forum and other forums, you have a great deal of knowledge and have helped a great many people. What I was trying to do, was to try and avoid any discussions where people were explaining "how to do it by working with what we have", I trying to stay focused on searching out "a better, simpler method". I didn't want to get side tracked by keep trying to justify what I was after. However, I must admit I learned a lot when I read how people were doing their calculations.

I'm fully aware there may not be a better way, and we may have to settle for what we have.

I'm still hoping that someone out there can come up with a motor specification chart that would be easily to read, make sense, without having to make calculations, and that all new and old modelers alike can easily use. I just have to give it a shot to see what we can come up with.

I do have a question you may be able to help me with. I often see people refering to Wattmeters, I have always arrived at watts by using a fomulae (such as P=EI) by using an ampmeter and VOM. Is there a meter that measures watts directly?

Thanks for your help, and please accept my apology.

Best regards,

Wayne Miller

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

Wayne,

Don't worry, I wasn't too offended.

I need to apologize as well. I did misunderstand what you were trying to do somewhat. The pics you recently posted more clearly demonstrated the kind of information you're looking for (AJ Hobby stats), and that kind of info is somewhat useful. At least, it's more useful than the raw statistics, or no information at all.

Where this kind of information will be most useful is with motors that are most practical in direct drive. In fact, Model Motors http://www.modelmotors.cz has a similar set of tables for its AXi line of direct-drive outrunner motors. I found the data useful in choosing the prop and final cell count (I was hedging between 14 and 16 cells) for my Corsair, in fact. Mega Motors also lists performance data for prop/cell combinations for many of its motors. Hobby Lobby does something similar for most of the motors they handle.

Where it's going to get a little fuzzy is with the geared motors. Gear ratio choices are virtually infinite, and you can't realistically expect a company to list performance specs on even the more common setups. Listing a single gear ratio will be useful to some, but it will cause most to eliminate a perfectly suitable motor from consideration.

Wayne Miller

Hi Matt,

I appreciate your comments, thanks for getting back to me.

I looked at the Model Motors site, and I'll have to search through it for the tables, the site didn't come up in english - I'll need to see if I can find a translator. Also, thanks for the info on the Mega Motors as well, I want to put together a direct drive for an ElectroStreak I'm going to build and wanted to replace the kit motor (550) with something a little more powerful, I'm currently looking at a Magnetic Mayhem with 8 cell 3000 mah pack. However, I may have to go brushless.

Again, thanks for your help.

Best regards,

Wayne

Jerry Ledford

My Feedback: (15)

I the motor section of Hobby-Lobby Catalog, you will find under each motor/motor gearbox combo a rough guide as to what it will fly in reference to weight. Weight is the largest factor in flying electric. I have 18 flyable electric planes.Some gas conversions.One is a 7lb Interne RC Cessna 177 with a speed 700 and a 2x1 belt drive.It doesn't burn up the sky but it looks realistic in flight.I try to keep the price down and keep it as a hobby,not a liability. Have fun, Jerry

Wayne Miller

Hi Jerry,

Thanks for the info.

Wayne

Billy Hell

My Feedback: (2)

I feel your pain. Here is a list of AXI specs I built. I hope this helps. These are external rotor brushless motors.

PM220820 AXI 2208/20
Size 1-3/32" diameter, 1-1/32" from back to front
Power Pack 4-8 cells/2-3xLi-Poly
Motor Weight 1.58 oz
Model Weight 7.05 - 17.64 oz
Propeller 9"x6� - 7,5"x4"

PM220826 AXI 2208/26
Size 1-3/32" diameter, 1-1/32" from back to front
Power Pack 6-8 cells/2-3xLi-Poly
Motor Weight 1.58 oz
Model Weight 7.05 - 17.64 oz
Propeller 8"x4.5" - 8.5"x5"

PM220834 AXI 2208/34
Size 1-3/32" diameter, 1-1/32" from back to front
Power Pack 6-10 cells/2-3xLi-Poly
Motor Weight 1.58 oz
Model Weight 7.05 - 17.64 oz
Propeller 10"x5" - 8.5"x5"

PM221220 AXI 2212/20
Size 1-3/32" diameter, 1-3/16" from back to front
Power Pack 6-10 cells/2-3xLi-Poly
Motor Weight 2.01 oz
Model Weight 10.58 - 28.22 oz
Propeller 9.5"x5" - 8.5"x6"

PM221226 AXI 2212/26
Size 1-3/32" diameter, 1-3/16" from back to front
Power Pack 8 cells/2-3xLi-Poly
Motor Weight 2.01 oz
Model Weight 10.58 - 24.69 oz
Propeller 10.5"x6 - 10"x6"

PM221234 AXI 2212/34
Size 1-3/32" diameter1-3/16" from back to front
Power Pack 6-10 cells/2-3xLi-Poly
Motor Weight 2.01 oz
Model Weight 10.58 - 24.69 oz
Propeller 12"x8" - 10.5"x7"

PM280816 AXI 2808/16
Size 1-3/8" diameter, 1-3/8" from back to front
Power Pack 6-8 cells
Motor Weight 2.75 oz
Model Weight 24.69 - 52.91 oz
Propeller 9,5"x5� - 8"x5"

PM280820 AXI 2808/20
Size 1-3/8" diameter, 1-3/8" from back to front
Power Pack 7-10 cells
Motor Weight 2.75 oz
Model Weight 24.69 - 52.91 oz
Propeller 10"x6� - 9"x5"

PM280824 AXI 2808/24
Size 1-3/8" diameter, 1-3/8" from back to front
Power Pack 6 – 8 cells
Motor Weight 2.75 oz
Model Weight 24.69 - 52.91 oz
Propeller 11"x5.5" - 9.5"x5"

PM281410 AXI 2814/10
Size 1-3/8" diameter, 1-5/8" from back to front
Power Pack 6 – 8 cells
Motor Weight 4.621 oz
Model Weight 3.99 lbs
Propeller 11�x4.7� - 9.5�x5�

PM281412 AXI 2814/12
Size 1-3/8" diameter, 1-5/8" from back to front
Power Pack 6 – 8 cells
Motor Weight 4.62 oz
Model Weight 3.9 lbs
Propeller 11�x4.7� - 9.5�x5�

PM282010 AXI 2820/10
Size 1-3/8" diameter, 2-1/4" from back to front
Power Pack 7 – 8 cells
Motor Weight 5.799 oz
Model Weight 5.79 oz
Propeller 12�x8� - 10�x6�

PM282012 AXI 2820/12
Size 3/8" diameter, 2-1/4" from back to front
Power Pack 10 – 14 cells
Motor Weight 5.79 oz
Model Weight 5 lbs
Propeller 11�x7� - 9�x6�

PM412014 AXI 4120/14
Size 2" diameter, 2-3/8" from back to front
Power Pack 12 cells
Motor Weight 11.28 oz
Model Weight 11
Propeller 13x6.5 - 14x7

PM412018 AXI 4120/18
Size 2" diameter, 2-3/8" from back to front
Power Pack 16 cells
Motor Weight 11.28 oz
Model Weight 11 lbs
Propeller 16 cells 13x6.5 / 14x7

PM413016 AXI 4130/16
Size 2" diameter, 2-5/8" from back to front
Power Pack 16 – 24 cells
Motor Weight 14.42 oz
Model Weight 16 lbs
Propeller 18�x11� – 14�x8�

PM413020 AXI 4130/20
Size 2" diameter, 2-5/8" from back to front
Power Pack 20 – 30 cells
Motor Weight 14.42 oz
Model Weight 16 lbs
Propeller 18.5�x12� - 16�x8�

These motors can be found here:

http://www.hobby-lobby.com/brushless_axi.htm

Wayne Miller

Hi Billy Hell,

Thanks so much for the information, it seems very complete and must have taken some time to construct. With this type of information, its easier to make the correct choice the first time.

I'm currently looking for a brushless for an ElectroStreak - any recommendations? I prefer more power than "just enough".

If you have a recommendation, do you have it in stock?

Thanks for your help.

Best regards,

Wayne Miller

revier

Time for a newbie to electric to enter this frey. I purchased an Omega E from NESailplane products. I asked them to suggest a proper motor, esc, and battery combination since this was my first enty into electrics. Gas experience 45 years. This package cost me $541.00. This motor is a Promax 4014 and the planetary gear 3.4 or 4.3. The sailplane is 2 meters. This bird never did climb with any authority and took a long time to get up to 150 feet. The bird crashed when another tx was turned on at a Fun Fly. I called NES for a suggestion on another bird this motor combo would work with but they never returned my calls. Finally I found a FVK Trendy 480 with 480 sq. inches of wing that I was told would be excellant. It is installed and ready to go and I placed a thread here on how it would fly. Battery pack 600mah micad. Total plane weight is 2 pounds. An answer was it would fly but not climb at 45 degrees. I now have $700.00 invested in something that will not climb very well. I have a Wattmeter and alot more equipment but do not have the desire to purchase half a dozen motors and prop combinations to test. I just want a nice flyable sailplane that will climb to 3 to 400 feet and not take the entire battery juice to get there. Got any answers?[&o]

Billy Hell

My Feedback: (2)

Wayne
I started out as a glow guy and I have been into electrics for about 8 months. I am the PR man for Hobby Lobby and I have learned so much in such a short time.
When I need an electric motor I find out what the all up weight will be. So lets say the Pigi will weigh 30 ounces fully built, this mean I have to have a motor that will have at least 30 ounces of thrust. If I want it to hover then I want a 2 to 1 thrust ratio. So now I know I need a motor that will put out 60 ounces. With this information I can look at my list I posted above and pick the best motor, the right battery and the correct prop. That is basically how I pick motors and systems for birds.

Revier
Email me and let me tell you about the bird I would buy if I were you.

Everyone
Figuring out electrics is tricky business. If there are any questions I can answer please feel free to post of email me. I'll do my best.

Jim T. Graham
PR - Hobby Lobby
615 373 1444 ext. 216
[email protected]

Wayne Miller

Hi Revier,

I think you are experiencing the problems that most of us do. That is trying to find the proper motor the first time. I personally prefer just a "little extra power", and most recommendations are for "just enough power". Its also difficult to find what the "next" motor in the power curve is with the current non-standard specs from the different manufacturers.

It sounds like we have finally found someone who recognizes the problem with the specs, cares, and is willing to help. Jim Graham (alias Billy Hell) from the previous post. I would suggest you contact him.

I'll be contacting him for my next order! I betcha alot of newbies to electric flight will be also.

Best regards,

Wayne Miller

revier

Thanks for your answer Wayne. I have e-mailed Billy and am waiting for a reply. I don't mind spending the money for a good product but it is hard to earn and silly to just throw away. And from the posts I read here what makes one flyer happy does not do so for another one. Take into consideration the fact that not all motors, in one class, are equal nor are the battery packs. Just recycled a tx pack to test it's capacity and found it down to 89mah after the cyle. Last time it read out to almost 600mah. Must have died and it wasn't that old. Better to find this out now rather than on a flight. Have a great day. lloyd[8D]

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

You guys better watch your wallets. Rumor has it 'ol Billy Hell has a penchant for hotliners THAT is an expensive hobby to get into...

There aren't many vendors out there making usable recommendations for their planes. Part of it, I'm sure, is because the "right" power system always costs more, and they're afraid of driving away buyers by recommending expensive power systems... Bottom line is, recommending more expensive power systems hurts their bottom line. Thankfully(?) Hobby Lobby isn't one of these vendors.

BTW, all the AXi motors Billy Hell listed are described in more detail on their manufacturer's website: http://www.modelmotors.cz/index.php?id=en&nc=produkty. This is the english products page. Lots of EXCELLENT information there, including actual applications for the motors (prop/cell combos with performance numbers). No slight to Hobby Lobby, but their data is nowhere near as complete.

If you guys are having troubles, just post it in a thread in these forums. I'd be happy to help in any way I can, and there are several other experts like Dr. Kiwi, and Greg Covey whose brains are ripe for the picking. I'll even throw in a plug or two for Hobby Lobby (cardboard sign reads: Will Work For Kokams).

revier

Matt Kirsch

I have posted my problem twice now. One heading was (Is it a good combo). You said the 600mah pack would be limited to 12 amps and 98 watts which would work out to 48 watts per pound for a 2 pound sailplane. You then asked if the 2# was total weight and I replyed that it was. You never got back to me. I am sure you are a very busy man. My second post on this subject was two or three posts above this one. All about the same problem. As you will read I have allready invested $700.00 so am not adverse to spending some money as long as I receive the flight performance I want. A sailplane is slower moving and larger than many of the other planes offered. Much easier for my slower 73 year old fingers and eyes to follow. By the way I read in another thread here that a sailplane only needed 30 watts per pound to preform well. True? I am a multi-rated airplane pilot but none of that knowledge helps me here. Thanks for any help. lloyd

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

Sorry, I try to "pace" myself. More than 3 or 4 threads per forum per visit, and I start to spend too much time here... Yours got bumped down the list below my limit, and I forgot to check back.

Let me go over there and take a peek...

firefighter

for my electrostreak, i went with the jeti phasor 15/4 and a jeti 40 amp speed control. I am going to use the gp 3300mah nimh (9 cell) yes it will be heavy...but I will also run a 3s2p 4200mah lipo in the future/.. will tell you how mine flies when the battery gets here

HoboDog

My Feedback: (1)

Wayne, Click English in the upper corner of the page. It's small and easy to miss.
Matt, Thanks for the site. I was having trouble finding data on the AXI 2802/20.

Wayne Miller

Hi,

I found the "English" later, boy did I feel dumb!

Thanks for the follow up.

Best regards,

Wayne

HoboDog

My Feedback: (1)

Billy Hell: Yesterday I ordered an AXI 2808/20 from Hobby Lobby. Based on the info presented I figured it would hover a Pigi with 3s2p LiPo 1500mAh and fly my Slow Stick with 2s1p LiPo 1500mAh. All based on experimenting to find the correct prop.
Did I get it right?
Regards,
Doug

scottm

I know what Wayne means, it is overwhelming.

Matt, that modelmotors site is impressive, with tons of stats, but it still isnt clear to me what I would want for my plane, a Wattage live wire.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Live...1469611/tm.htm

I planned all along to just call someone at Hacker or where ever, as soon as I can commit to a bl system. It is a dog now, thats for sure, and it won't be long before the stock motor burns up on a 3s 1500 li poly.

Jim Finn

My Feedback: (2)

I have been building and flying electrics for about 7 years and I find Electricalc answers almost all the questions mentioned in this thread. Motocalc is just as good. These are $40 computer programs and are well worth the time to learn and play with. You can download Motocalc for 30 days free to try it. I think that someday we will all class motor by watts. Like a 100watt motor etc.

Wayne Miller

Hi Jim Finn,

I agree the calculators can give you the information to help pick a motor, however, that is not the issue. The issue is how to assist new modelers to select the proper motor for their application, quickly and easily. This can only be done if all manufacturers publish the same criteria as their motor specifications.

I think the problem is the confusion, the suppliers are making for us, when they give their own "custom" motor specifications. It would almost seem as though they purposely stick to their "own" standards for specifications to create confusion between manufacturers.

I think in their minds this creates a situation where modelers have to stick with a specific manufacturer in order to easily understand which is the next motor "up" or "down" in regards to power etc.

As modelers we need to push for an industry standard for what minimum specifications are required from all manufacturers. This is needed in order to make logical comparisons between manufacturers without having to go to a computer program.

If all the motor suppliers would use the same standard for stating their specifications, we would not have this confusion, and motor selection would be easier.

This is the biggest problem that all new electric modelers face, and it can be very frustrating for them when selecting motors and batteries. I've heard many times where a person has carefully done all the calculations, only to find the motor, or batteries, they ordered were not suitable for their applications.

Luckily, we have very experienced people in this forum, such as Matt, that give their time freely, and are willing to help us. I don't know where we would be with out them.

Best regards,

Wayne Miller

Grampaw

I have either a 380 or a 400 size motor. I read somewhere that these motors can be identified by case measurements, and comparing this motor with the specs on Speed 400s in Hobby Lobby, it would apprear to be a 400. If so, I'm guessing a 6 volt as it came out of a wrecked Park Flyer advertised as using a 6 volt. I have a 6 cell 7 1/2 volt Ni Cad pak from another plane. It would seem that all I need now, is an ESC to complete the motor assembly. Wattage has several ESCs but I was looking at the IC-5A ESC that according to information, handles from 5 to 8 cell Ni Cads. My question is would this ESC handle the above mentioned motor and power pak? Going by cell count only, it would seem to fit the bill. Another line of copy on the 5A says "5A continous/12A surge." Other ESCs listed have higher figures. Not sure if that means Amps or what?. You can see here the dilemma those of us not too familiar with all the lingo of electrics why we have problem with when it comes to gathering compatable components for even the simplest systems. Would anyone care to enlighten me on the above and maybe point me in the right direction?.

Wayne Miller

Hi,

When I got into "foamies", I started off with a GWS P51D Mustang. It came with a 300 motor.

My understanding is that the number is the length of the case in mm (millimeters). My 300 has the Mabuchi name on it (apparently the GWS motors are Mabuchi) and the number 50. Later I purchased 2 Formosas and they have a 350 motor in it, however the 350's are the same size as the 300's but have a little more power. Their motors have the numbers T0753221 and 6N. The 400 motor I have has no name or number.

When I purchased an ESC, I found out that they are usually rated in AMPS, and it doesn't hurt to order one with more amps than you need - if you order oner that will handle more than you need, you can then put a more powerful motor on it later on. I have a 15 and 30 amp and the difference in size and weight is very little. Some of the ESC's are programmable, or can detect the battery type automatically. This can be useful when using Lithium batteries (LiPo, lithium polymer, or LiIo, Lithium Ion), since they will shut the motor off when the batteries reach thier lower limits and avoid damage to the batteries.

You will probably end up going to lithium batteries if you do a lot of flying. They are much lighter than other batteries and store more power.

When looking for an ESC, you should look for an on/off switch, detection for lithium (and other) batteries, and BEC. This allows you to use the batteries powering the motor to be used for the receiver, it has a plug for the receiver. Built in is a circuit to reduce the motor battery voltage level down to the receiver voltage level.

One caution, there are two types of ESC, one is for brushed motors, and has 2 wires for the motor, (which you have) and the other is for brushless and has 3 wires for the motor. The brushless is much more expensive. If you fly a lot, you will probably also end up going to a brushless motor, but this is too expensive to start out with.

I'm guessing you have a 300 motor. You may want to search RC Universe for GWS and Mabuchi motors and the planes they are used on. There is lots of threads discussing these motors. Typically modelers drive the motors at a higher voltage then they are rated at, when you check the GWS site, be sure to note the voltage they are using when they give the power ratings.

I hope this gets you started and points you in the right direction. Be sure to search this site, all forums for the motor information, you'll finid lots of stuff and advise.

Best of luck!

Wayne Miller

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

Wayne,

You've got me all teary-eyed here

Guys,

For future reference, if you have a question that's not directly related to the thread, please start a new thread especially if the thread is very long and very old, like this one. It just makes answering your questions so much easier, and the information is easier to find. Having multiple conversations going on in the same room is difficult to sort through.

Grampaw, and scottm, this means you! Go ahead and post your questions as separate new threads.

scottm

Sorry Matt, I didn't mean it to sound like I was asking for help. I meant to say that I agree with Wayne that I cant tell from all the specs what to get.