airyzonie

I am 48 years old and have been intrigued by radio control airplanes for about as long as I can remember but I've never been able to justify the cost. I have finally reached a point in my life where I think the cost is coming within reason. As such, I'm pretty much your basic middle aged newbie. I bought a Firebird Commander (2 channel park flyer) to dip my toe in the water. I was reasonably happy with that experiment but I think I'd like to get more serious. For me that means:

1) Joining a local club and trying to find an instructor/mentor.
2) Getting a plane with at least 3 channels and probably 4.
3) Getting a radio that isn't specific to the plane. One that is relatively easy to use but not one that I'll outgrow quickly.
4) Learning basic flying skills. (I don't put much stock in the self-teaching I've done with my Commander)

I'm making progress on number one. I spoke to a veteran member of a local club and he seemed to be gently steering me toward a .60 glow plane as a trainer. He didn't seem dead set on it but that definitely seemed to be his leaning.

Bear with me.... I'm working up to a question....

I'm wondering if this is just his comfort zone since he's probably been in the glow plug world longer than I've been alive. I went to an all electric event at the club's flying field and was amazed at the huge range of planes from RTF park flyers like my Firebird to 3D foamies to multi-engine ducted fan screamers.

For me at this point, my most basic question is this: Is there any compelling reason to start out in this hobby with glow planes or with electrics? I don't expect to have both glow and electric planes as many people seem to. I think I should pick one power source or the other and plan to focus on that. I suspect that to a large measure my decision depends on what kind of flying I expect to do and that's a problem because I'm not really sure. I think I should learn the basics first and then decide. If I had to predict, I suspect that in the long run I'd lean toward soaring rather than radical aerobatics or hyper speed. I've wondered if it wouldn't be best to learn flying fundamentals in a powered sailplane but even in that case, the question remains: gas or electric?

I want to ask this question in the glow forum also and see how the answers compare. Any feedback y'all can give me would be much appreciated.

Undecided in Phoenix.

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

You hit the nail right on the head. The .60-size glow trainer is the guy's "comfort zone" as you put it. He knows how the power system works. He knows it will fly well, even in high winds. He could work on it, even fly it, blindfolded with one hand tied behind his back. That's the reasoning behind EVERY trainer recommendation, not that the person is mean or biased against any particular type of plane. Some people tend to think that because a club suggests a glow trainer, that means they're anti-electric. On the contrary, electric is something that many old timers are not familiar with, and they would be lost, unable to help you if the plane wasn't performing as expected. You want them to teach you, not stare at your plane with their mouth hanging open and a stupid look on their face...

There are many compelling reasons to go glow. First, the knowledge base in meatspace is much larger. You have to come here for advice on electrics because most clubs are lean on electric fliers, and those electric fliers usually have "better things" to do than pass on their knowledge to others <grrrr>. Second, you get more for your money, a more capable plane that can perform basic aerobatics, handle heavy winds, fly for 20 minutes at a time... The only way to get that kind of performance out of an electric is to convert a glow trainer with a brushless motor and LiPoly batteries, at a cost of around $1000 vs. $400 for a complete .40-size glow trainer and all the field equipment.

There are also many compelling reasons to go electic. With a smaller park flyer, you can fly "anytime, anywhere." Keep the plane in your car and a battery all charged up, and you can go out for a quick "nooner" at work. Beginner park fliers are very easy to fly, and very durable. You can literally learn to fly on your own through trial and error, though be prepared to learn to repair as well They're inexpensive; a complete Tiger Moth or Slow Stick setup with all the bells and whistles will cost you around $250, less if you shop carefully.

The main difference between the two paths is that what you can learn on a glow trainer usually requires progression through two or three park fliers. Glow is messy if you're a neat freak, though, and noisy if you don't like the sound (I don't mind the cleanup, and I like the sound of a good engine). As you know, there are advantages and disadvantages to each, which is why I fly a little of both

In the end, the decision is up to you, I'm afraid.

LesUyeda

Another "thing" to think about. I am a glow to electric flyer. I am not completely converted to electric, and I am certainly not selling off any of my glow equipment.

I do find that electric is MUCH more technically challenging, to get things set up right, and functioning the way you would like. The number of variables give one endless choices. I can NOT argue the simplicity of operation, once you have the airplane that you want, and the performance you want. You charge up the batteries, and go fly. No fuel to mess with, no engine starting, no cleanup after, and no after run oil, etc., etc., etc.. I have several airplanes in my truck, and I don't even bother to unload them between flying days.

But I do miss the smell and sound of a 4 stroke twin.

Les

NMPhi767

I agree with Les. As a kid, I flew glow powered planes with my father. As a an adult, I decided to get back into it and decided on parkflyers because I could fly them in central Phoenix and I did not have to drive out to a club field.

You have to learn much about electricity, amps, volts, currents, and electronics in order to put an electric plane together, especially if you decide to start using brushless motors or lithium batteries. The learning curve is big and frustrating in electrics, but I have learned much and I am confident in my abilities to select parts now.

I started with a JR XF 631 radio. It is a simple computer radio that has a three model memory. It is a good radio for a beginner because it is easy to program, works well with three or four channel models, but can still be used on complicated models that require 6 channel control. The only downside to my radio is the fact that it has a three model memory and I want more than three planes eventually.

I am the kind of person that does not have time for a mess or too much maintenance. Even though electric is somewhat more costly that glow, it is much more convenient for me, and I do not think the costs will stay higher than glow for much longer.

bigwave

My Feedback: (3)

IMO
I'd start with an inexpensive four channel .40 size fuel plane. The general rule (not always) is the larger the plane the more stable it flies and it's also easier to see in the air. Get yourself a nice six channel radio their more affordable and reliable then ever and can be used with any plane glow or electric.

I currently fly fuel powered planes and helicopters, mostly the helis anymore, because I can fly them in a smaller area. I can take a heli out in the country throw down a rug for a landing pad and away I go.

I am now looking very seriously into the electric planes and currently have two of them. They are both flying ok, but lack the power to do any real stunts (which you will not care about for a little while). And my flight times are only 2 - 4 minutes. I have much to learn before I am going to be totally happy with the way these things fly.

The challenge of making these E-Planes fly well is much more difficult then getting a glow plane to fly nicely although not nearly as tough as getting a heli properly setup and flying.

I'm also finding that the cost of making an E-Plane fly well can be very expensive.

What I've found so far is:
E-Plane advantage ..... Disadvantage
Size, fly anywhere ..... Size, harder to see and more affected by wind
Very quite ............ Short flights, unless you spend many $$$ on high end batteries
need less field equipment ..... Need (IMO) good quality charger
cleaner, no mess after flight ..... Harder to setup
............................................... Fewer flyers, good advice may be scarce in your area
................................................. Not as common in hobby stores (but getting better)

If you haven't yet go check out www.hobby-lobby.com they sell many e-planes and have several in-flight videos you can check out.

What ever you choose if you use good judgment, the knowledge of others and have patients you'll have allot of fun, it's a great hobby.

Good Luck

blvdbuzzard

I have way to many planes both glow and electrics. I like my little park flyers because I charge and fly. The flight times are not what I am used to with the glow planes. The 4 channel parkflyer has a flight of about 6 minutes. I did a glow converson of a Piper Cub from a .25 glow to "E" powered. It flys great, easy to fly, and almost good flight times. About 10-11 minutes. I could teach some one to fly the Cub without much trouble. The Cub uses a cheap power setup. It has a Magnteic Mayhem(r) that cost $20.00, a GD600 gear box, $14.00 and 10 2400 nicds that cost around $49.00 a pack.

I would recomend a glow trainer for you to start with. Here are my reasons why I think it would be better. One is the flight times. A glow plane should be able to stay up at a low to medium throttle setting for around 20 minutes. You will get a lot more stick time per flight. They are very easy to setup and get them flying right. As for what size to get, that is up to you. I too like a .60 sized trainer to teach new pilots. The 60 sized one I have compared to the 40s, have a slow landing speed, are not pushed around as much by wind, are easyer to see, are not much if any more costly then a 40.

No matter what you decide, you will have checks and balances to decide on what airplane. Electric can cost more yet is a little bit quieter then glow, glow will not cost as much but do get covered in fuel residue. Nothing is free. You will have to decide on what you "NEED" and that will be the factor. Each has its own plus's and minus's.

Dru.

airyzonie

I appreciate the input thus far.

The concensus so far seems to be that electric is more money. You said "less field equipment". I suspected that to be true. Do you think this is a hidden offset to the higher cost of electric? Or is that a factor that most people are alreay putting into the equation?

I'm getting the sense that electric would tend to have a higher initial cost but perhaps a somewhat lower operating cost.

I have to say I'm a bit surprised by the short flying time some electric owners are reporting. My Firebird Commander has given me a couple of 20+ minute flights and almost always over 15. I realize that it is a pretty different animal than the more serious planes, but dropping to flight times in the sub-5 minute range seems highly unacceptable. I guess that's a significant part of where the higher cost for electrics goes, huh?

I'm guessing that a trainer that can't stay up for at least 15 minutes is going pretty seriously interfere with learning. I'm guessing that being able to get 3 or 4 flights in the 15 minute range within the space of an hour or slightly more would make for a pretty acceptable lesson.

Further comments or reactions?

Thanks,
Undecided in Phoenix

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

Electric is only more money if you start converting larger glow planes. If you're content with flying smaller park fliers, the cost is quite comparable, even cheaper.

While there has been no scientific study, I believe over time that the cost of electric vs. glow is a wash. Glow has a recurring cost. It's difficult to put a hard number on it because everyone flies differently, but at $15 a gallon, it doesn't take too many gallons of fuel to match or even exceed the cost of electric.

A popular myth is that to get good performance, you need high-dollar gear. It's completely not true. There are many many examples of high-performance airplanes that are fully aerobatic, powered by inexpensive brushed motors and "low end" NiCd or NiMH batteries. Proper planning is the key, and there is all kinds of help available.

Bigwave, you might want to start a new thread and post the details on your planes. I'm sure something fairly simple and inexpensive can be done to improve performance.

blvdbuzzard

If you might be interested in doing a scratch build, for a small 4 channel glow/electric trainer I can get a copy of the plans I have for a Jr Falcon. It is a 60's design that I built a couple of months ago and put cheap power set(Wattage 370 geared $20.00) 8 cell 720 mah nimh pack $27.00 Dymond micro .3, .4, 1 amp charger $25.00, 4 Ciruss CS-09 servos $15.00 each, Ciruss MXR4 Rx $15.00, Crystal $11.00, Wattage ESC 15 amp $35.00, APC prop $3.00, and the plane cost about $12.00 for the wood and I used scrap covering to cover it.

Dru.

P.S. Here is a pic of my electric powerd Cub.

Dugster

airyzonie,

Welcome to the Universe. I would like to invite you to visit our club, the Easy Valley Aviators in Apache Junction. We're a very friendly bunch with electric, fuel and gas fliers. Unlike some clubs we aren't prejudiced one way or the other about electric. On a typical day you can find anything from a GWS Tiger Moth to a gas powered 40% Extra tooling around the field. Both electric and fuel have their advantages and their disadvantages. It's just a question of understanding what they can do for you and fitting it into where you want to go in the hobby.

So, as they say, come on down. We're more than willing to talk and answer questions. Heck, we're all plane (plain?) crazy anyway and there's nothing we like better than talking about RC planes... well, except maybe flying RC airplanes![X(]

Doug

john 8750

I fly both and think electric now a days is well worth it.
For a lot of real nice planes, 1/2 hour flight times is doable.
Having fun is the most important thing.






Dru---
Tell us more about the cub.
I want to build a 40" or so bird dog or L5.
My jr. falcon is the best flying plane I have.

rjbranchii

I may be out of place in this discussion. I just joined the group tonight. Also tonight I completed my first successful RC flights. I think I can be registered as a true "beginner." Note I said my first sucessful RC flights. I tried a number of times many years ago with rubber launched gliders and glo trainers. They all resulted in rubble. Heck, I have never even suceeded flying a computer flight simulator flight without crashing. So I returned to control line and flew competitative precision aerobatics for a number of years before leaving the hobby when it just took so long to build a competative stunter.

A week ago I was sick in bed for the weekend and somehow surfed on the web to an electric RC site. It seemed electrics had come of age (they were just new on the scene when I last tried RC) and I saw a number of "trainers" advertised. After reading ads and reading reviews and searching especially for actual beginners experiences on various groups, I settled on the T-Gull by Readytoflyfun.com. Seemed everyone who had flown it had felt it was successful in its mission and they included spare wings and tail sections and even a second battery in their rtf package. I opted for the optional 900 mAh batteries ($10 more) and ordered a third battery so I'd be able to have at least 3 flights.

Well, tonight I trecked off to the local field with my neighbor who is an experienced RC pilot. He did the first flight and trimmed it for me. The only thing he changed from their set up was to recommend the elevator pushrod be in the hole closest to the elevator rather than the middle one the company recommended because of the short gravel takeoff surface we had. After two laps of the field he gave it to me. And I flew it sucessfully. Not just once, but over a dozen flights tonight! No crashes, I did every takeoff and landing after the first, and even did two loops before the night was over! And I AM EXCITED!!!!

But my input is to one thing that some listed as a negative which I take as a positive as a beginner. That is the flight time. First of all, as a beginner, it is much easier to accomplish control, and recover from mistakes when going slow. After climb out I throttled back to about half throttle for the rest of the flight. This let the motor run along time. But I never flew the plane to run down. The field we flew from was about 1/4 by 1/8 mile and I would fly about 3 or 4 patterns around the field and then land. Then bring it over to the gravel and take off again. I was able to do 4 to 5 flights on a single charge! But more importantly I got alot of take off and landing practice. This seems to be the most challenging part of the flight for beginners. When I was training for my real pilots training, much of the training leading up to solo was take off and landing work. When I trained for my instrument rating the same. And when I trained for my multiengine and mutiengine instrument ratings the training was mostly take offs and landings. I found as a pure begginer tonight, my mind needed a break after dealing with 3 or 4 circuits of the pattern and a landing. Even the few minutes it took just to walk over and retrieve the plane and bring it back to the take off strip let me relax and refresh. And as a beginner now who has completed a dozen flights in his first night I feel alot more confident to go out and practice on my own than if I had done one or two from full tank burns of 20 minutes. I think that would have been mentally very tough, and I would not feel as good as I do tonight.

But then as I said, I AM REALLY EXCITED!!!!!

bob branch

tmproff

My Feedback: (5)

I have been flying R/C for about 12 years. I started on glow and flew on and off for many years.
1. First and formost, driving 30 mins out to a flying field was a BIG turnoff for me.
2. Second, lugging all of the fuel, starter, battery to the field was a pain.
3. Engine maintenance can be quite a learning curve for the beginner. Adjusting a motor for idle and high speed is a science in itself

OK NOW FOR THE ELECTRICS!

1. They dont call Glow planes "SLIMERS" for nothing. The smell, oil ooze that gets in your car can definatly rub the wife wrong.
2. How many glow flyers can walk to the field with your controller, your plane, and a few batteries in your back pocket?
3. With my brushless setup, I can get 30 min flights if I just coast around. 20 min flights if I'm really ripping up the sky (1900 mah lipo battery)

One of the largest misconceptions of electrics is that the planes are small and the flight times are short. 5 years ago, you'd definatly be correct. The technology just wasn't there. With the introduction of brushless motors and lithium-polymer batteries, I would challenge any 40" size glow to outperform my 40" electric (and I'd fly twice as long as well). Prices? Well to power my 40" electric plane, I have:

Mega 16/15/4 brushless motor $70
Astro 709 3:1 gearbox $30
Castle Creations Phoenix 25 ESC $70
Thunder Power 3S 1900 lithium power $74
APC 12X6 Slowfly Prop - $3

This is one of the most adaptable power systems you can get. To start out with a trainer, this system will fly a 30-35 oz system. Dont expect super aerobatics, but as a beginner, I'm sure you arent! After you get more comfortable flying, you can pull this equipment out and put it in something like the Todd'sModels Attitude, and it is the ultimate 3d machine! THE ABSOLUTE BEST PART ABOUT ELECTRIC PLANES IS WHERE YOU CAN FLY THEM! I can go to the local soccer fields near my house and fly to my heart's content. The drive time is about 7 mins The electrics are pretty quiet compared to glow planes, but the gearboxes do make some noise. Now there is a brushless motor grouping named "outriggers" that do not need gearboxes...that's my next endeavor!

Well I'm stepping off my soapbox and concluding with a pic of my beloved Attitude. With my powersystem capable of 45+ oz of thrust and my Attitude at 20 oz, you can do the math and see that this is a really powerful system!

airyzonie

Once again, I'm grateful for the input thus far. I'm not sure if it was apparent in the post that started this thread but I think I was predisposed toward electric from the outset. It seems to be cleaner, quieter and perhaps needing less paraphernalia. The costs seem to keep coming down and I think that the proponents of glow may be a bit behind the curve on their perception of the relative economy of internal combustion. I feel like any investment I make in glow is in the direction of obsolescence. I like the idea that the possibility exists of being able to move some of the electric gear to an upgrade plane as tmproff suggests. It sounds like it is possible to convert glow to electric but that probably is a bit of a kludge rather than "a good plan".

I know that there are a great many recommendations out there for the Slow Stick. I've also noted that folks have added ailerons to that plane. While I don't think that the building portion of a slow stick is beyond my capabilities, I do think that I'd feel better working with a plane that was designed with ailerons rather than as an afterthough.

Maybe I'm being overly ambitious but I don't think that a Slow Stick is enough of a leap from my Firebird Commander. If this was my first plane then I could enter into the Aerobird vs. Slow Stick debate which has been nearly beaten to death here. But that is not my first plane. I want it to be my first "full featured" plane. At the same time, I do like the 46+ inch wingspan that these planes offer. I think the advice that I've gotten that says, "bigger is easier to see and therefore easier to learn on," is quite valid. At the same time, I think an adequate flying time is also important for a trainer. Flying time and cost and size seem to be highly interdependent. An increase size will require an increase in cost to maintain flying time.

Maybe this is really the start of a new thread but I'd like to turn the discussion toward the minimum criteria for a 4 channel trainer.

Wingspan? 45" or better?
High wing? Low wing? Mid? (should I care?)
Flight time? 20+ minutes on a charge and the ability to swap batteries to put together an hour of flying? (I'm thinking of a lesson here.)
Durability? Can this really be measured?
Transmitter with growth potential. Computer?
Cost? How much can this be done for when basically starting from scratch?

Are there any other criteria I should consider? Are the values above reasonable and realistic? As always, well informed input is highly valued.

Thanks,
Leaning toward E-Power

Dugster, sadly Apache Junction is the other side of the valley from me. Too far to drive except for special occasions. I'm much closer to the Sun Valley Fliers field at Cave Buttes Dam (Cave Creek Rd. just south of Tatum Ranch). Thanks for the invite tho.

tmproff

My Feedback: (5)

Instead of recommending a single controller or plane, I found some really good threads focused exactly on your questions:

For Controllers, click [link=http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208099]HERE[/link]

For Airplanes, click [link=http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60556]HERE[/link] and [link=http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60556]HERE[/link] and [link=http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219138]Good Slowstick Thread[/link]

For Servo's, click [link=http://www.parkflyermotors.com/secure/shop/category.asp?catid=13]HERE[/link]
you will want servo's that are around 10g in weight. The bluebird's are highly recommended

I'd definatly recommend a computer controller (best you can find/afford of course)
You want a trainer with a high wing and some dihedral (V in the wing)
Ebay is a great place to look for a controller, not so great for motors. I purchased my Futaba 8 channel computer transmitter for $180 off Ebay![X(]

some great rc stores in the internet:
[link=http://www.parkflyermotors.com]ParkFlyerMotors[/link]
[link=http://www.aeromicro.com]AeroMicro[/link]
[link=http://www.b-p-p.com]BPP[/link] (Great for motors/batteries)
[link=http://www.balsapr.com/]Balsa Products[/link]
[link=http://www.allerc.com/]All E RC[/link]

Some Recommendations:

If you go brushless, dont waste your money on 2s lipo's. Make sure to purchase 3s. For the size of plane that you are looking for, look around the 1900-2200Mah capacity
I think you are going to spend around $350-$400 for everything. (Not including the Transmitter)
If there was anything that I'd change about my Electric plunge, I'd have purchased a lipo battery charger that charged more than one lipo at a time(they take a LOONG time to charge)
Brushless motors + 3s lipo's are ideal......the brushless motors have a very long life w/no maintenance.
Since these planes are slower than gassers, you can get away with a 35" wingspan and still have a good view of the plane.
HAVE A BLAST!!!!
If you have any other questions, feel free to contact me at:
[email protected]

RCaillouet3

This is a great topic! Thanks Airyzonie for bringing it up!

Now I have been instructing with glow for a number of years now and have come to like the glow routing for beginners. Now that being said there are some great things that can be said for the electric route to learning. One thing is that if you work with an instructor, you can generally keep a small park flyer in the trunk, and during a lunch (or any other)break, you can get a flight in a field somewhere.

One big thing I have with the electric route is power. Now I am not talking about power to weight, I am talking about substained power through a flight. I am just begining on the path of electric enlightenhood, but my experience with electric is this: as the pack gets low, so does the power!!!

The power issue can get to be a BIG problem with newbies from an instrucors stand point. Think about it, the student gets a little out of whack at low altitude and you decide a go around is called for, what if the pack is so low that you can't do one? The result, you have to land the plane hopefully in one piece!

What does this tell the student? Easy, you don't have to worry about really paying attention to approaches and landings! At worst what could happen, I can do what my instructor just did, and I won't hurt the airplane to much!

Now I am NOT saying that this is the only thing that scenario will teach, if you are a good instrucot, you can get the pint across at how dangerous the situation was to your student. BUT the thought will generally be in the students head.

For me, I would rather have a relatively constant amount of power with glow for newbies (you either have fuel for full power or you don't have fuel!) Now put me in the same situation with a student with the glow and one of 3 things could be taking place:

1. The plane is deadstick, and I will bring it in, unless I am sure the student can handle it and NOT get into a bad situation.

2. A go around is initiated teaching the student that it is generally beter to go around than to force a bad situation further.

3. Same as electric outcome!

If I have someone that is just starting out, I tell them 3 things! Join the local club, find a GOOD instructor, and LISTEN AND LEARN!!! For the most part, I will guide someone to glow. If they are dead set on flying electric, I will generally give them a few flights on the trainer I own, just to make sure that they don't go out and crash because of lack of an electric instructor.

Keeping people in the hobby and getting new people into this great hobby is of key concern to me, and most instructors I know! So letting someone get a few flights under their belt, before attempting to solo, with MY trainer is not that bad a prospect.

Electric has its advantages! But I must say that for me I am not experienced with electric enough to jump straight into teaching newbies with electric only.

Just my thoughts,

Reg

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

Thanks for your input Reg. I too am an instructor with my club, but if you've been around this forum for more than 10 minutes, you've probably gotten the idea that I know more than a little bit about electrics

You make a great point that I've tried to make in many threads such as this one: The instructor recommends a particular setup not because he/she is mean and evil, but because of comfort level.

The key to electric safety in flight is just the same as it is with glow. You need to time your flights and make sure to start landing with plenty of reserve left in the tank for a go-around or two. If an electric's duration is six minutes and your giving lessons, you cut short at four minutes and begin setting up for a landing. It should only take one "emergency" landing to determine the exact duration of the battery, and plan the next flight accordingly. If your student questions why you're landing so soon, you explain why.

But, that's a bit off track. The main issue at hand here is coming up with an electric that beats that dreaded "quality triangle." You know, the one where it says: Make it good. Make it fast. Make it cheap. Pick any two. With electrics, it's: Make it powerful. Make it fly for a long time. Make it cheap. Pick any two. At this stage of the game, you can't have all three with electrics. You need to make compromises, such as throwing lots of money at a plane to give it lots of power and duration, or giving up some power by using a cheap can motor to get a plane that flies okay for a decent amount of time.

airyzonie, you've got some pretty lofty criteria there, pardon the pun. Consider that most glow lessons are about 10 minutes in length. That's all the student usually has patience for, and if there are people waiting in line for lessons, it's only fair. 20 minutes on any plane, let alone a fairly large electric, is an expensive proposition, involving massive numbers of parallel LiPoly packs. On top of that, you want to do it twice over. Time to cash in the retirement fund

In a nutshell, big electric planes with impressive marathon-like durations are still just proof-of-concept models set up by people with money to burn. Since you're in the Park Flyer mode, you might also consider reducing your size requirements to Speed 300/EPS350C size. If you want full-house, the ideal next step is the GWS E-Starter. This plane will fly for 12 minutes on a 650mAh NiMH battery. Get a 2-cell Kokam 1500 in there, and the plane will laugh at 20 minutes. Plus, there's room, and weight carrying capacity, for a second 1500 in parallel to double your flight time.

Also, don't get hung up on ailerons. They're not that important to learning. A properly designed rudder plane like a Slow Stick will turn just as well as an aileron plane like the GWS E-Starter, and you won't be able to tell the difference at the transmitter.

tmproff

My Feedback: (5)

I definatly agree about instructor's preferences. With that in mind, just find an instructor that likes electrics!!! As to the less power at the end of a flight, with the lipo's the voltage stay's pretty constant throughout the flight. For example with my 3s 1900Mah lipos, they are charged to a max of 12.4 volts. When I fly for 20+ mins and land, the packs usually have a little over 11 volts left in them. The problem with lipo's is that when they do drop voltage, they drop it fast. The time it takes to go from 11volts to 9 volts is a matter of around 3-4 minutes in my experience. My Solution? Set a timer for 20 mins. That's plenty of juice to do anything you want....putt putt around or punch holes in the sky. When 20 mins are up, you have about the same power as you did when you started. My only "close call" with my lipo's was when I was hovering above a light used to illuminate a baseball field (bout 30 feet up), and my "soft cutoff" on my ESC (Electronic Speed Control) was triggered. That is when the load voltage in the lipo's hit's 9 volts. In this case, the engine turns off, but you still have servo control till you drop the throttle to 0 and then push it back up. Even then, I had no problem starting the engine up and landing it. You just have to remember to stay cool and return the throttle to the bottom!

I've never flown electrics using nicad's, but I believe they slowly drop voltage throughout the flight resulting in less and less power. Not good in my book! I've never tried for an endurance record on my electric, but I bet it'd be over 30 mins.

airyzonie

OK, remember that I'm virtually a total newbie here and 'splain me this one.... Running out of gas vs. running out of battery power. When the fuel runs dry in a glow plane, it's gone. What warning do you get beyond your best estimate of engine time per volume of fuel. Isn't battery flight time at least as predictable as glow flight time? Additionally, with my Firebird Commander (NiMh) I can get a sense of impending loss of power based on declining performance somewhat BEFORE going bingo. Don't LiPo batteries behave this way to at least some extent? Doesn't this work out to another advantage for electric over glow or is there some kind of magical reserve tank on glow planes that I don't know about?

Matt, I'm really glad that my cost/size/duration triangle thingy made sense to someone. What kind of wingspan would you expect to see in the class of planes you are talking about?

tmproff

My Feedback: (5)

airyzonie, there is a small difference as the flight goes on, but it's definatly not as easy to detect as if you were using nimh's. On my lipo setup, at the 20 min mark, I can still hover, shoot straight up like a rocket, and do any aerobatics I want. The more I fly my E setup, I am starting to be able to notice the slight decrease in performance, but it's very very subtle. As to the "reserve tank" on a glow plane, there is no such thing, but as a Matt said, you definatly have exactly the same amount of power at the end of a flight as you did in the beginning (maybe a little more power due to the fact that the plane is lighter with less fuel).

Now with electrics' you actually do have a small "reserve tank". The ESC monitor's your voltage in your battery. When it gets to a specified voltage (you set this voltage), your motor cuts off. When this happens, you can drop your throttle to 0 and then slowly raise it back up to 1/3 to 1/2 throttle and have plenty of power to land. If you have enough altitude and this happens, you have plenty of time to react. The problem occurs when you are hovering 6 feet off the ground and your cutoff hits. There is no time to react, so you must be careful if you are doing such aerobatics.

airyzonie

It sounds to me as though the LiPo and glow both have a pretty similar behavior with regard to running out of power. Plan ahead for landings so that you don't get caught going around without sufficient resources to do so. Both can leave you powerless with very little warning other than your best time estimate. Am I right?

The ability to restart the electric motor after ESC cutoff is not a universal feature is it?

tmproff

My Feedback: (5)

Thats a good question....I know that all of the ESC's made by Castle Creations have this feature

One of my favorite things about electric motors is that you do not have to adjust them for idle or lean/rich mixture. If you go vertical and want to do a stall turn or hammerhead, you dont have to worry about the engine cutting off and not starting back up again (always in the back of my head when I fly a glow plane)

airyzonie

Can a 3 channel (rudder, elevator, throttle) plane do rolls? I know I'm not going to want to do that early on but I'm thinking that I want a trainer that could go up to some basic aerobatics such as rolls and loops.

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

Man, don't you people sleep? I wrote my last reply at midnight, and I wake up to this!

A Slow Stick can certainly do rolls. Of course, not AXIAL rolls, but barrel rolls are possible. From this discussion, I really think you'd be better off with an E-Starter, though. Sounds like you need more of a challenge

One nice thing about flying with LiPolys is that you usually have the ESC cutoff set at a fairly high level. There's still some juice left in the battery for a go-around because you're being conservative and not trying to draw every last drop out of the battery. However, I still think that if you're flying until cutoff, you're flying too long.

airyzonie

I followed the E-Starter link in the previous post and I'm sure I can do some further research but I'll ask here:

It says "3-4 channel radio" Does that mean it can be rigged either with or without ailerons?

It mentions NiCad and NiMh batteries but makes no mention of LiPo. Am I correct to assume that LiPo is a legitimate option?

I guess a general flying question would be: Does "mix" mean that the rudder and ailerons are operating together based on a single control?