2manycruisers

I've done enough research on this forum to pick out a slow stick and HiTec Neon SS radio for my dad. He's expressed interest in learning to fly, but at this point is uncommitted, so I don't want to go big on upgrades and accessories. Any reason to get the 300 motor over the 400? I was looking at Tower Hobbies, the EPS w/400C and the suggested battery, charger, and ESC to go with it. Is it worth a few extra bucks up front to get a different battery, charger, or speed control? I don't want to spend the extra money for LiPo stuff at this point, but was mostly curious about something like 8.4V NiMH or something like that. I don't understand enough about electrics or electric airplanes to know what difference mAh makes (or what it is, for that matter) and how gearing and prop size/pitch affect amperage. I'm in a small town in northern NM with no hobby shop nearby, so I'm at a loss for in-person assistance.

Tower Hobbies lists:
Great Planes Electrifly C-12 Micro Brushed ESC w/BEC
Great Planes Electrifly DC Peak Charger
GWS 6cell 7.2V 270 mAh NiCD JST battery

Thanks,
David

Solid Hit

David,

The 300 will fly the plane fine. I'm a believer in using more power when available because you can always throttle back if necessary but you can't get more power when you want it if it isn't there. It was that reason that I got the 400 on my first SS. I've gone brushless and lipo since then but the 400 is a nice motor.

Think of mHA as the amount of fuel in a tank. The more mHA the longer your flight time.

Hope that helps a little

2manycruisers

Thanks for the info. I guess that means the 270 mAh NiCd they suggest won't last very long. :-)

Time Pilot

On the 300 motor, about 2 to 4 minutes, depending on how you fly.

A good place to start to see how props and gearing and voltage (electrical pressure) effect amps (how many electrons flow through the wire) is the GWS site:

http://www.gwsus.com/english/product...owersystem.htm

Click on the motor you have, want, or want to learn about, and then look at the tables listed.

The measurements there will be close to the ones in real life with a fully charged battery.

When learning to fly, keep the Slow Stick Stock. Once your dad wants more, then start thinking of the upgrades. Personally, with park flyers, I wouldn't go brushless with nimh's, nor would I consider using Lipos with brushed motors. You can, but to me if you are going to make the upgrade, do them both at the same time. You don't have to spend a lot of money to make the SS more responsive.

Off the top of my head, a good 1100mAh nimh pack, ESC and a GWS gearbox with motor is going to cost you around $40, shipping not included. A cheap brushless motor, ESC and battery will cost around $65, shipping not included. For the power difference, $25 isn't much, expecially when you realize the the brushless motor will last longer than a brushed motor. So once you start calculating that price into it--replacing the brushed motors--the brushless is probably cheaper.

2manycruisers

Great, thanks for the info and the website. First time I visited the site, I found it too difficult to navigate, so I never found that page. Great info, though, if I could better understand it.
The kit from Tower Hobbies includes the EP1060 prop. On the GWS website, under EP1060 it says direct. Does that mean it's not geared? What about the EP1180 with the GWS300? Is one better than the other?

Also on the GWS site, it says a 730-2000 mAh NiMH battery or a 600-1000 mAh NiCd battery, but Tower's website lists a 230 mAh NiCd or a 650 mAh NiMH as recommended batteries.

thanks,
david

Time Pilot

If you print out the charts, they are easier to read. You can see all the information in front of you. What the charts tell you are factors related to performance as you change gearboxes, props and batteries. The charts are divided by gearbox, if I recall, and for each gearbox, it will tell you the performance for different props and batteries. You want to run the 300 at max 8 amps and max 9.6 volts. If you have specific questions about how to read them, I'd be more than willing to assist, but do ask. I'd rather that than write a bunch of stuff you don't want or care to read.

I hope not, because the 300 will never be able to spin a 1060 prop unless it's geared! For the 6.6:1 gearing (D gearing) I prefer the 1180 prop over others, like the 11x4.7 and the 12x6. I've tried them and I find the 11x4.7 doesn't have enough speed and the performance of the 12x6 wasn't noticably different and is harder on the motor.

The 1060 would be a more appropriate prop for C gearing. Given a choice, I'd go for the deeper gearing and the larger prop for the SS, but I'm sure it will fly fine with the other setup.

Are you sure of the prop? That's not what I see. Which version of the SS are we talking about?
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXHCJ1&P=7

Do not get the 230 mAh Nicd unless you want to have 2-3 minute flight times. The 7C 8.4V 650 nimh mAh battery is good and will lighten up the SS while giving you 10 - 12 minute flights, depending on how you fly. This is enough to get started. You'll want to get at least two batteries. If you wanted a bigger battery to start, go for a 8.4V 1000 - 1200 mAh cell.

Another thing to consider is the shape of the battery. For the SS, I prefer a brick style rather than a flat style as they are a bit easier to fit under the SS--since they aren't as long, you don't have as many issues with placing them. Others will work, but that's my preference.

If you look here (scroll down), a 2x2 stick or brick are a good shape:
http://www.cheapbatterypacks.com/mai...gid=custompack

If you are thinking of moving the batteries to another plane later, you can try to optimize the shape and connectors so it will fit both planes well. If you don't know the second plane, get what works for the SS or else there's a whole lot of fussing for a simple little plane.

This info is for the 300 motor. Different recommendations for the 400.

2manycruisers

Thanks for your help. After your post, I think I can read the GWS site to determine the 1180 prop with the 300c motor has the "D" gearing. I was originally considering the 400c because "bigger is better" right? and I can't figure out what gearing the plane comes with with the 1060 prop. And what's the difference in the chart between "direct" and "slow flyer"?

What are the differences (functional/performance) between the 300 and 400 planes? Which would you recommend? You gave your battery recommendations for the 300, what would you recommend for the 400?

thanks,
david

Time Pilot

This turned out a little longer than expected. I hope it's helpful. [X(]

I looked at Tower and I do not see a Slow Stick that has a 1060 prop. Perhaps you were looking at a different plane?

As to your other question about the difference, if you can provide a link to the chart you're looking at, that will help answer your question better.

But I think you are talking about this page:
http://www.gwsus.com/english/product...owersystem.htm
vs this page:
http://www.gwsus.com/english/product...system/edp.htm

If so, in direct drive, the propellor is attached to the electric motor shaft with something called a prop adaptor that looks like this:
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXVY80&P=ML
In a geared system, there is a pinion gear on the motor:
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXHHH5&P=7
which spins one of these:
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXJEV5&P=7
The propellor attaches to the shaft in the link above and it all fits in a gearbox which looks like:
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXHUV5&P=7
I picked these parts at random, but I think you get the idea.

For many electric motors (except for brushless outrunners), they spin fast but don't have much torque or strength when they do it. If you go direct drive, your only solution is to spin a small propeller fast. You lose some of the efficiency because much of the energy is in beating the air. To get over this problem, the motors are geared down to spin slower, but the prop is big so they spin slow and take a nice clean bite of air. Much more efficient and works well.

Whether you go geared or direct drive, whether you go for deep gearing or shallow, whether you have a big prop that spins slow or a small prop that spins fast are all decisions you make based on the kind of plane you want to fly. You don't put a Formula I engine in a tractor and neither do you put a tractor engine in a Formula I car. Each engine may be as powerful, but the power is directed for a particular use. Unless modified, the Slow Stick is a high drag, slow flying plane, like a tractor. So we gear it and prop it as such.

So I'm guessing that the Slow Flyer is talking about geared systems.

I don't have the 400 SS, so I can't make any judgements based on direct experience, but I can give you some ideas based on what I've read about others experiences and my own experiences with the SS and other planes.

The 400 is one ounce heavier. On a light build, this amounts to about 8% extra. If you weigh 200 pounds, it would be like adding an extra 16 pounds to you. This weigh helps a BIT to keep the plane more steady when it's windy, but I wouldn't expect any miracles here. The plane has a huge wing area and it's light. It will get blown about by the wind unless you encase its wheels in cement. [X(] Personally, I wouldn't use this as a reason to get the 400. When it comes to learning to fly this plane, I would get used to the idea that you are going go fly it in the AM or PM when the wind is almost nill and leave it at that. Once someone learns to fly, they can get another plane that will handle the wind a bit better.

But the extra weight also takes away some of the nimbleness of the plane. Imagine taking a stick and put a lump of clay in the middle of it. Let's say the clay weighs a pound. If you grab that stick in the middle and twirl it around, it moves fairly easily. Not take the clay and stick it on the ends of that stick and twirl it around. We didn't add any weight, but the positioning of it changes the characteristics of it. Adding the extra weight to the nose does that to the SS.

You get a bit more power out of a 400. Think 110 watt bulb vs a 70 watt bulb, if they made such a thing. The 400 is the 110 watt bulb and the 300 the 70 watt bulb. Some of the extra power will be used to carry the extra weight of the motor and bigger batteries, so you don't really get a clean extra 40 watts. So if you don't really get a lot of extra power, and if the SS will fly fine at half throttle, why even worry about the extra power? As a trainer, the 300 is adequately powered, and for the reasons laid out, I'd choose the 300.

The only benefit to the 400 is that it is a more robust motor and will last longer. You'll likely be replacing the 300 motor every 10 to 20 hours or so, depending on how you fly it. they are about $12.00 each. Again, I wouldn't be too concerned about this, because it's all part of the cost of learning to fly. After a season and a few motors, you'll be on to another plane and your skills will have advanced to put a brushless motor and Lipo's on it--much more power than the 400!

The only consideration for the 400 is the prop shaft is thicker and may be less likely to bend when you crash nose first. I've never heard anyone say anything about this, though. Again, it wouldn't drive my purchase, because part of the learning process will be replacing props, shafts and other parts.

The battery I would put on the 400 is a 8C 9.6V 1000-1200 Nimh battery (if you want to stay away from Lipos, which, in my opinion, is a good idea until you learn to fly). The 400 is said to need more voltage to make it perform, and because it is a bigger motor, needs a bit more current or amps to do it.

almsy

The SlowStick with the 300 motor and 1180 prop is fine as a first plane. I had the choice between the 300 and 400 and I was told at the LHS to get the 300 it was actually suited better for the SS. I don't know why they didn't recommend the 400 but I was most satisfied with the 300. Go 7 cell on battery (8.4volts) at least 750mah for 12 to 15 minutes flying. Get a prop saver or more props, You'll need them. Get a couple of spare props anyway, you'll need them Fine plane to learn on, I did and have progressed rather easily after couple months to 3D with a Flatana and HL YAK 55 with brushless. Oh - get sim time too, will save your bacon may times.
enjoy

2manycruisers

Thanks Almsy and Time Pilot for the info and advice. Sounds like the 300 is a good bet. Once I get him the basic setup, I'll leave it up to him to decide when and how to upgrade. I'll definitely recommend he register here to learn a thing or three. What a great resource!

thanks,
david