Semi Retired Aviator

I was looking at going electric in my next aircraft, a 65" Cap 232, but simply can't justify the cost. The following ad is from Hobby Lobby, and when compared with an OS 91 FS it's similar (for the motor and ESC combo), but that's before the batteries and the charger.

I guess the batteries would be about the same cost, and that covers an awful lot of fuel, but the hard part is that sellers of LiPo batteries say they are good for only 100-200 cycles, so say 150 cycles, and that's a dollar and a half every charge in battery life alone, and then they need replacing. I beleive that the motors are good for a long life, but ESC's fail frequently, and they cost more than the motor.

Has anybody actually done the economic exercise and realistically compared a nitro engine with an electric equivalent. I'd be interested to hear the result.



AXI 4120/14
PM412014 Model Motors AXI Gold 4120/14 OUTRUNNER Motor ..... $ 129.90
IN STOCK
This motor is used on Piper Cub (BH010), and Critical Mass (KMP504).
Order combo PM412014C, Motor with Jeti Advance PLUS 70 amp controller and SAVE $ 20.80, total $ 239.00.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fliprob17

On planes over 4 lbs or so it really is not cost effective in my opinion. I was looking at converting a 5.5-6 lbs aircraft and I would go broke before it ever flew For planes under the 4 lbs mark it really works out nice to go electric. You can fly at any local park that is big enough, and the cost really balances out a lot better than they do with the big aircraft. Plus the electric motor is instant power vs. the slight delay of the nitro motors.

r/cmark42

My Feedback: (8)

I agree with 17. It can cost more but the convienience of being able to jump out on to the local soccer fields without ticking off the neighbors is priceless

critterhunter

I doesn't even come close (electric is MUCH cheaper) PROVIDED you know where to look for prices and don't buy "brand name" motors, lipos, ESCs, etc. Tower Pro brushless motors are only like $10 to $15 and can match or better the performance of motors costing much more. Check out the 2409-18T Tower Pro motor for planes up to about 4 to 5 pounds. I've read of some using it on 4 and 1/2 pound planes if I remember right. It has tons of torque and fairly low amp draw, in the 10 to 20 amp range. As for ESCs, again check into Tower Pro for 30 to 40 amp models under $30, or the Sword or Pentium (same company) speed controls for about the same price but with even better features. For lipos, there are $32 Hextronicks 3 cell 2200ma 20C (44 amp) packs for $32 that work great. Forget who sells them at that price but do a search in the E-Flite Power sources forum for messages on that and a link. On the other hand, if you are one of those people who has to own a name then going electric will cost you big money, especially when you try to gear up planes 4+ pounds. Check out aero-nuts.com, rchotdeals.com, balsa products, and other cheaper sites.

Fliprob17

A lot of the products you are talking about are for the smaller planes. http://www.rchotdeals.com/Products/r.../240918ss.html is this the motor you are talking about? This is not going to drive a 5 lb plane. I think this is the same motor but a different link http://www.xushobby.com/servlet/Detail?no=148.

If you do the math on a 5lb plane. And say you want some decent aerobatics, so 100-125 watts per lb is what you are shooting for. You are going to need a total watt output of 500-625 watts. You are not going to get that kind of power from a motor that is only producing/pulling 20 amps and using an 11.1 volt LiPo, that is only 222 total watts. Since watts = volts x amps, you would need a 25 volt battery to even touch the bottom end of the performance window with that motor. And that motor max's out at 14.8 volts.

If you want to look at the Tower Pro/non-brand name stuff and try to make it work without brand names, you would at least need something like this http://www.rchotdeals.com/Products/r...or/BM2915.html

Then you are looking around a 4S LiPo at 14.8 volts. The motor has a max. amp draw at 35 amps, so if you have it at full throttle with the 4S LiPo at 14.8 volts - 35 x 14.8 = 518 total watts at full throttle.

pilotpete2

As a guy who flys electric and glow, I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents in with fliprob17. The further up the scale you go, it seems the cost goes up exponentially[X(]. There is no doubt that even in the 40% scale category electric is more than competitive in performance (or arguably better), but the cost is prohibitive.
Also, don't fall for the line "with electric you're paying for all your fuel up front" if you buy that, I have "such a deal for you on this here bridge" . The bigger the plane, the more likely you are to destroy those expensive Lipos.
This last season was my first using Lipos for my electrics and the results have been fantastic, but then my largest pack is a 3S 2000Mah. hardly "big league".
Will the day come when E-conversion of a plane like my 4 Star 60 make economic sense? hard to say, but as long as there are fields where noise is not an issue, there will be those like myself who enjoy glow power, and actually enjoy the occaisional "challenge" they provide , but as time goes by I see my E-fleet growing, Is this a great hobby, or what

r/cmark42

My Feedback: (8)

The B E S T !

gosk8ing

Hey,

Another thing to look at is how long is the trip to your club takes. My club is 40km away, so each time i want to go flying, its a 80km round trip; about $10 for my car each trip, and thats a small car. Then there is also club fees $$$.
With electric, you can fly at parks, which is a 2 minute drive for me...alot closer. You also get the chance to fly at all different types of parks... and its good having a change in scenery. I have about 20 parks i can fly at within a 5km radius.

Cheers

Fliprob17

On the smaller scale planes, under 3-4 lbs, there is no question that electric is the way to go. The main topic here is the BIG PLANES. Once you get over the 4 lb mark, prices go up exponentially when going to electric.

r/cmark42

My Feedback: (8)

I can't agree more with the ability to fly at local parks. there are a couple of flying clubs arund here but the fields are very often over grown (County maintained) and twice as far away. I think it well worth the $125 to pay for a battery to fly my Ultra stick 25e just for that convenience.
I know I'm repeating my earlier point but I guarantee I would not be enjoying this hobby if Glow was the only option..

critterhunter

Posted the wrong model number for the motor I was talking about. Let me look and dig for that thread. Remember it being a big plane...around or close to 4 pounds if I remember right. I also remember the spec sheet for this motor claiming it to be a perfect replacement for certain size gas motors. As far as lipos go....they are cheap now and getting cheaper if you are willing to "slum", just like anything else electric can be found at a very low price if you know where to look. I just pointed you to a 3 cell 44 amp 2200ma pack for $32. What more do you want? Parallel or series it to what you're shooting for. The site that sells them also carries those Hextronicks packs in various other configurations at outrageously low prices. Haven't looked closely since I'm a 3 cell man but believe they have 4 to at least 6 cell packs in those as well. I'll post that link too in a day or so when I find the motor I was thinking of. Cigarette break for now...

critterhunter

Held off on my smoke break long enough to dig the link up for you on the cheap lipos. Check this site and I bet you'll find packs in the sizes you want at good prices, much lower than what most of the "respectable" companies want for a pack. I've heard nothing but good things about these lipos so don't be afraid of the quality. If you can't find what you want there check Dymond Motor Sports, Common Sense RC, Astro, Hi-Model, etc. Look on aero-nuts.com, rchotdeals.com, balsa products, and of course the site I'm linking now for cheap lipos and motors. I realize some of the examples I posted for ESCs are not geared to your amp range but, just as other companies want two to three times more for a 30 amp ESC, the same can be said for 60 or 70 amp speed controls. Look on those sites, do some digging, and you're going to find that electric has come of age.

Think I might also have a second cheap motor alternative that comes to mind...Let me do some digging...


https://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITED...idProduct=2045

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

You're no more likely to damage the batteries in a larger plane than a smaller one. In fact, you're LESS likely. The cost factor alone will greatly affect the risk you take while flying the plane, and how you care for your batteries. You are far far far more likely to do low inverted passes or other nutty maneuvers with a "cheap" foamie than you are with a larger balsa plane.

In my book, you can't put a price on the convenience factor at any size. I recently converted a Hangar 9 Twist and it's unbelievable how nice it is to throw a big plane in the back of the truck, completely assembled, and head out to the field. With three packs and a charger I can fly all day.

One thing that can help reduce cost is careful planning. I've got a cache of 3200mAh packs, four each 4S and 6S. With these packs, I can mix and match to power anything from a .40-size, to a 1.20, up to a 35%. I don't push them hard, I balance charge them after every flight. Stuff happens, so I could have a mishap and end up ruining some or all of the packs, but ideally, I've bought the fuel for not one, but several planes for several years

Semi Retired Aviator

Matt, you make a good point I hadn't considered....a crash. With an electric model, damaging the battery pack in a crash is a real possibility, and there goes (for a big aircraft) $200-$300.....with a nitro model the equivalent damage is a fuel tank and fuel, probably $10. ESC's are also easily damaged I believe, so the damage bill could be considerably higher with an electric model than nito.

The figures just don't stack up for me to even consider electric rather than nitro at this stage. I wish they did because I really like the concept of electric.

Fliprob17

For the big planes, over the 4-5 lb mark it is really hard to make it worth it if you are doing fine with the nitro now.

Under the 4lb mark, like the US 25E, perfect larger plane for electric. Any bigger than that and you just need too much to get it in the air.

impulse

I read only the first two posts because i'm a little jumpy. They ability to go to park like they said is priceless. I dont know about your geograpics but for me to fly nitro I have to drive 45 minutes. So in gas alone I am paying ATLEAST $6 maybe more. And you add membership and AMA the cost of electric is cheaper in the long run. Also electric planes have more power than the nitro/gas counterparts.

pilotpete2

Impulse,
I drive to my "local" flying field 70 miles round trip to fly my larger electrics and glow powered planes, I fly parkflyers on my property[8D]
The airplanes we are refering to here are not parkflyers, to fly a +5 pound electric in a park is the fastest way to lose the privilege that parkflyers enjoy, not to mention the personal liability issue, flying a .60 size plane on public property without AMA liability coverage is not a good plan if you have any assets you don't want to lose[X(]
Your last statement is true now, but not at the same cost, if you want to fly a 27% aerobatic plane cheaply, you will will power it with a 50cc 2 stroke gas engine, way cheaper than a glow engine, electrics in that category are phenomenal in performance and cost, and you can't fly one in the park
I'll probably be beat up a bit for my stand on the definition of what a parkflyer is, but large, heavy or high performance (100 Mph[X(]) electrics being flown in parks and schoolyards are risking the privileges that park flyers now enjoy.
Regards,
Pete

jamie

My Feedback: (2)

boys i am one to talk to because i have been flying nitro's for about six years now.. i have just got into the elctric's and i have to tell you it is great. i have a typhoon and a mini ultra stick, f27b jet i have the same in those as i have in 3 of my nitro's maybe a little cheaper on the elctric's.... i have a 120 ultra stick when i fly it lets say i crash it hard... 249.00 for anthor plane... lets say i crash my mini 89.00 to replace...... theres a big differce in price... and i have to say making the change is a welcome site... you dont have to clean them after a day of flying... you dont have to mess with trying to get thrm started tune them in or anything like that... i have liked it very much..... no dont get me wrong i like the nitro's to... but cost i dont no???? but in the long run one is just as cheap as the other...... by the way the mini stick is awsome and if you havnt got one GET ONE AS SOON AS POSSABLE ITS A BLAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tall Paul

It's not the motor cost, or the motor and ESC..
When I see $700 of -battery- in the large pattern planes locally... and know this investment can be lost on the first flight, or the 100th.. in either event, the economic impact would be unsupportable.
Even the .40 sized electrics take $200-$300 worth of batteries.
We've had at least 3 major losses at the local field, the battery cost alone is around $2000.. and that's for only -3- events!
Big electrics are nice, and are in the future for everyone flying big stuff.. but if you can't afford the hit for the complete loss of the battery pack.. think long and hard.
You don't have to buy ALL the fuel your glow plane will use, before the first flight.
You can't buy a gallon of amps. You must buy ALL the amps up front!

saramos

When looking at larger planes, I think the type of plane will have some bearing on the cost-risk factor. In large pattern, it may still be prohibited, but in a mulit-engine scale, it may actually lower the risk of loss of the plane (and batteries). I have a couple of twin kits that I'll be building in the future, and I intend on using electrics with them. While the cost is still high, I am planning on using electric on my next project, a TF P-51B. I will delay buying batteries until I near completion (could be a couple of years at my pace) in order to take advantage of any price reduction. It doesn't make sense to buy batteries, or even the motor and esc until the project progresses. A couple of other factors help make the cost more bearable, is the ability to reduce, or even eliminate the need for cutting a cowl and also be able to turn a closer to scale multi blade prop.

Scott

Semi Retired Aviator

I suppose I should have qualified my original post. I have committed to a size range in model aircraft, 6' - 7' span. If it's outside that, I don't want to know about it.

The reasons are many. I can use the same engines, servos, etc., so when I trash one, I just transfer the gear to another.

As others have pointed out, aircraft this size can't be flown in parks if one has any sense of legal responsibility, so I'm committed to going to the field. When I get there, the comparison starts, and once again, as others have pointed out, the cost becomes prohibitive for aircraft above 5 pounds, or so.

I agree that the impact of cost can be mitigated to a degree by never having to clean the oil off a model, not having to cut cowls and swinging scale props, thereby giving a realistic scale appearance, but I have that with a couple of aircraft in which I use RCV SP engines. The muffler does still show, but not much.

I like your post Tall Paul; it makes good sense. To lose your battery pack, upwards of $300, on the first flight due to a crash would, financially, be like your nitro plane just flying off and never being found

So I guess until the overall cost of electrics reduces, I'll stick with nitro engines.

KingCobra2

WOW!!!! Lucky for me my ama club is only 2 miles away!!

KingCobra2

hmmmmmm, wonder how much it would cost to replace that nitro engine if it breaks? I've seen alot of damaged nitro engines in a lot of crashes.

KingCobra2

Your comment on power wise(elect vs. nitro) is true in most cases but some don't belive it my friend. I love electric! Scott.

perttime

When picking a power plant you have to consider your
- circumstances
- priorities
- preferences

Mine still point towards small electrics. Others are surely in different situations and mine will undoubtedly change sooner or later too.