critterhunter

Well then I'll just say "HE HAW" I'm a jack*ss. Nothing wrong with debate, exchange of information, etc. It's how we learn.

Touching on gas/glow...One local club just lost the field they've had for years. Reason? Nearby houses couldn't stand the sound and kept complaining to the police/city. That trend will continue as yuppies move into the country and then don't expect to have to live like they are in the country. I don't like that one bit, as I'm a hunter and get real tired of yuppie mom and dad on the news complaining about hearing gun shots nearby. One of them even said "Think of the children". If they had any clue as to how far a shot gun can travel or all the other safety guidelines you are supposed to follow, they'd realize that hunting is a safer sport than tennis, swimming, or bowling (true government statistics). But, point being that they don't "think" when they build that $200,000 house out in the country of what they are getting into, and like it or not you will see more gas fields drop like flys.

(Have to run out...more later....This donkey needs some oats)

Fliprob17

The first post that mentions anything to do with or about gas/glow is yours....check out posts #6 and 8.....oh and #9. Everyone was comparing brushed and brushless until then You changed the direction of the thread.......intentionally or not.

sharpshooter223

well, when i changed the direction, i wasnt trying to change it to this, i was trying to compare small engines with electrics as a whole, not to be debating it though. and i admit i did start debating also but i hate myself for doing that cause it just gets to be silly. but i think there shouldnt be any arguement within pilots as a whole when there are people trying to get rid of the hobby as a whole. and just to add a little something about the hunting thing, more people die due to a physicial a year than to a gun shot. the real problem isnt which source of power is prefered, the real problem is the people outside the hobby who b**ch about everything. its going on with all the houses being built farther into the country, everything including agriculture, hunting, planes, even hikers are being complained about. so seriously, lets just forget the whole debate, and worry on the more important subject, like people trying to get rid of us.

Fliprob17

......this is by far the wierdest thread I have ever posted in [sm=spinnyeyes.gif]

I love coming onto this site to gain knowledge, help people with questions and problems, get the low-down on new products, hear what people have to say about products etc. but generally each thread follows the title or some sort of path.......we started with your first post about Brushed vs. Brushless - so people chimed in, then went to gas vs. brushless - again people chimed in, then quickly, but not really discussed balsa vs. foam and who knows if we discussed airfoil design or not.............. now on to people who want to get rid of the hobby and hunters................[sm=spinnyeyes.gif].........all within a page and a half of the thread.............I feel like I was just spun around 100 times and sent through a maze blind folded

Good luck to all, HAPPY FLYING!

critterhunter

Hey, settle down a bit and take it easy. Nobody is taking a personal attack on you, or at least I'm not trying to look that way. As I said, a little debate is good for the soul and helps to open eyes some times to things they didn't know. Don't look at it as an attack on you if you feel that way, it's more of pros/cons discussion on ideas.

I'm not a glow/gas bigot. Fly what you have fun with and makes you happy. But I do stand by my belief that gas-n-glow are going to keep shrinking (I say "keep" because electric has already put a huge dent in the market) over time. Will they completely go away? Of course not, nobody is saying that, but they are going to be a much less important part of RC as time goes by. Just look at control lines and the sad bunch that seem to try to keep clubs together for that. Now, before I get tied up in control lines and dragged behind somebody's car, I'm not knocking that hobby. If you enjoy it then fine and I'm glad for you. To me, though, in my mind it's more like trying to live with a TV and no remote control just for "old time sake". How was that ever fun, having to get up and change the channel every time you want to watch something else? It just doesn't seem logical to me to want to hold onto something, not because it's better, but because it's just the way things have always been done.

Onto foam-vs-balsa. Again, like it or not, "stick building" is not the quickest way to build a plane these days. Not only is it slower than working with foam, it's more expensive and you can do less (to some extent) than you can with foam in producing odd body shapes, etc. Well, maybe that's an over statement, but I will say that it's much easier to do certain things in foam. Less weight, easier building, faster repairs, better impact damage absorbtion qualities. Foams got it all. There are also numerous styles, weights, and quality traits of foams to select from for a specific build need. Can that be said about balsa? Can you hot wire a fuse on a $10 homemade hot wire cutting table in about one minute with balsa? Can you simply hot wire out a chamber for various flight components in a matter of seconds that will safely house and hide your parts on the plane, or do you have to build shelves and such in that balsa body that can be time intensive? But isn't foam less sturdy and thus doesn't "fly" as good? Depends on the foam you are using, and a few carbon tubes or strips of Extreme strapping tape will take care of any issues you might have.

So, a long round about way to get back to your original question to close things up. Is brushless needed? No, of course not. Brushed motors have served many planes well for many years. The point is that brushless setups are as cheap or even cheaper these days, and they'll give you MUCH better performance, longer run times, wider windows of performance, etc. So why bother with brushed motors anymore? (See above "Control Line" story). It just doesn't make sense.

I also don't agree with some who have mentioned that electric is very expensive on larger planes. That gap, if not totally overshadowing all size ranges of gas-vs-electric price differences is closing fast. I'd say right now at least anything up to 5 to 10 pounds is cheaper in electric now, but that might be stretching it just a bit. If you don't believe me just cruise united hobbies or other such cheap outlets. Notice the gas motor each brushless is listed to replace. Notice the weight, price, performance specs. Gas (N Glow) is in big trouble these days. But the batteries are expensive? While you are on there start checking out the battery prices. They aren't the only source of these low prices, either.

Sure, have fun and enjoy all the aspects of this hobby. We all should respect each other. That means no more "Only real planes have exhaust fumes" remarks, which I've heard far too often from old school AMA types. I got news for you, your gas-n-glow isn't a "real" plane either! I also see the AMA going down hill fast unless they start loosing up their lower rear regions with all the rules and guidelines they have. Us cheap park flyer folks they like to look down their nose at aren't going anywhere, and there are a bunch of people behind us that just picked up their non-AMA Parkzone electronics planes to go fly somewhere. Telling them the plane and electronics they have in it are "junk" and not allowed at their fields is only going to cheese off potential future AMA members. A buddy of mine (He is an AMA member) just went and flew at a mostly gas club. You know, one of those places way out in the country where most houses still don't have electricity, let alone the planes. They laughed at his scratch build electrics. Sure, they have seen a few flown....mostly for the novelty of one of the club members or two owning one of these "toys". But they hadn't seen his planes fly. You know, planes with the new generation of cheap $20 China motors and such. Needless to say they stopped laughing when he began flying at speeds of close to 100 mph.

So, have fun, respect each other, and enjoy the sport. It's for all of us. Just don't get stuck in your ways. I'm already waiting for the next generation...power sources that are mini jet engines (the size of a quarter) which will replace the need for batteries, and instead power your electric motor directly from the power they generate. Is that pie in the sky Star Trek stuff? Nope, they are already looking into using them for laptops and such. You put a drop of "fuel" into the little bugger and it will run for days. Now we are going backwards, aren't we....using gas to power electric.

sharpshooter223

honestly critterhunter, from your earlier posts it does sound like you want to do away with fuels, and i never said that foam sucks, i do agree that it has its up points, like quick build time, however, to me, the build it part of the hobby and i dont respect my plane as much if i just put it together in a few hours. i do now believe that brushless are more powerful than brushed and all, but im yet to be convinced about price and everything and im yet to be convinced that they are better that fuels, but thats me, who knows they might be better, but ill just stick to my fuels, its what my grandpa used to fly and i like the look and all of them better too, thats just my opinion though. my point is, lets just go our own ways and develope our hobby the way we choose, but lets not start trying to run the other person out, because if theres competition like that, the liberals will be able to take away our hobby much easier and thats something none of us want. so why cant we just end the debates, its ok to keep friendly discussions going, but there are too many debates about who is "better". also why cant we just agree that some of us like noisy, fuel smelling engines and some hate that, if you hate that, just stay away from them, but dont try and make it go away. lets all just get back to the original point of the hobby when it was first started, making a machine and personallizing it is part of it for some of us, but for all of us it is this word that i call FLYING. flying a plane is the main point, and i know my life is never any better than when im flying something or fishing. (maybe its possible to combined the two?) but whatever the case, there is too much debate where it seems that one type will hate the other type just cause they enjoy the hobby differently. here is what i think, STOP arguing which is "better", RESPECT the other type of persons way of the hobby, RESPECT other rc aircraft traffic at the field, and just FLY

sharpshooter223

honestly critterhunter, from your earlier posts it does sound like you want to do away with fuels, and i never said that foam sucks, i do agree that it has its up points, like quick build time, however, to me, the build it part of the hobby and i dont respect my plane as much if i just put it together in a few hours. i do now believe that brushless are more powerful than brushed and all, but im yet to be convinced about price and everything and im yet to be convinced that they are better that fuels, but thats me, who knows they might be better, but ill just stick to my fuels, its what my grandpa used to fly and i like the look and all of them better too, thats just my opinion though. my point is, lets just go our own ways and develope our hobby the way we choose, but lets not start trying to run the other person out, because if theres competition like that, the liberals will be able to take away our hobby much easier and thats something none of us want. so why cant we just end the debates, its ok to keep friendly discussions going, but there are too many debates about who is "better". also why cant we just agree that some of us like noisy, fuel smelling engines and some hate that, if you hate that, just stay away from them, but dont try and make it go away. lets all just get back to the original point of the hobby when it was first started, making a machine and personallizing it is part of it for some of us, but for all of us it is this word that i call FLYING. flying a plane is the main point, and i know my life is never any better than when im flying something or fishing. (maybe its possible to combined the two?) but whatever the case, there is too much debate where it seems that one type will hate the other type just cause they enjoy the hobby differently. here is what i think, STOP arguing which is "better", RESPECT the other type of persons way of the hobby, RESPECT other rc aircraft traffic at the field, and just FLY

sharpshooter223

im sorry that it posted that twice, my computer screwed up and did that and i dont know how to delete the extra one

pilotpete2

Critterhunter,
As far as cost goes there is no way a plane in the 10 lb. class can be electric powered anywhere near the cost of IC power.
With a good 26cc. electronic ignition engine going for around 275 bucks it's no contest. Yes electric can be awesome in giant scale and some precision pilots prefer the control it gives them, Dave Patrick comes to mind, but I think he has deeper pockets than many of us.
Gasoline power is definitely growing due primarily to the low cost of regular gas (can't believe I just said 3 dollar a gallon is cheap) and the improvements in electronic ignition systems making them more user friendly, as the timing is automatically retarded for starting, the guy's I fly with that run them just use a leather glove, no electric starter needed.
Building with foam, well most of the better ARFs are balsa/lite ply these days, but foam does make good core material for sheeted wings.
Pete

critterhunter

Only have a moment to post so will reply more later...

Have you seen these monster brushless electrics...And very cheap...

https://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITED...y=63&curPage=5

Thumb back a page to see some other big ones, and into other pages of the motor listings you'll find more.

Also wanted to make a quick remark about balsa. I'm not saying balsa is or is going to be dead for good. Just, like gas-n-glow, it's going to be far less important or popular to the hobby as time goes by. There is always going to be those who like to pratice building with balsa as an art and make some really beautiful planes out of it. No doubt about that.

More later...

sharpshooter223

well, im sorry for having to say this, but critter hunter, those motors dont come with esc's or batteries, the only thing needed for a fuel engine is a gas tank (very cheap), some fuel (depending on the type and if its glow whether you mix your own or not, can be cheap), and some oil (i know in glow a bottle of hobbico after run lasts a long time and doesnt cost too much. so when you compare prices, you have to think about everything needed for the power system. and acctually, from what ive read in the other forum for planes, theres no way combustion engines or balsa and other wood build ups are going to diminish too much within the next centry, so im happy. although i can see why people enjoy foam because its quick to build and all, it will never be able to match the most intricate details that balsa can. sorry for making this argument, just wanting to point a few things out that look like they were skipped over. also, too me, a foamy that is mostly manufactured at the factory and only has a few thing that the flyer needs to glue together, that just isnt a very personalized plane.

sharpshooter223

there is no question that brushless is the best and cheapest way to go when it comes to park flyers though, i will give you that, in fact i may upgrade my ultrafly outrage to one from its brushed speed 400 sometime this year, hopefully i can get a job

critterhunter

I don't "want" to do away with anything. I'm simply stating that the trend as technology continues will be a slow death for gas-n-glow. It won't completely die off, but it will be more of a novelty than a comon practice in RC as the years go by...much like control line.

Foam can take as fast or slow of a build as you want to get. I've thrown together planes in a few hours time, from the point of them being just a slab of 4x5 foot 2" thick foam from Home Depot, to a complete and glued fuse ready for electronics. Others work quicker but I like to sit and think about my builds a lot. On the other hand, I've built planes that were just as "complicated" and time consuming as balsa to put together, but only because I wanted to go the extra mile and make the plane special. Mainly this is due to new designs that I have to think through converting from a slab of foam into a plane, or because I wanted to add some details that are a bit beyond my skills and talents without some extra work and thought. A foam plane can be just as "special" as any balsa build and look as good if not better. Various techniques are out there to achieve those goals. I liken the balsa/foam debate to wood canoes versus metal or fiberglass (or the new Ram-X material). I've seen wood canoes that take months to make by hand and are simply a work of art. So much so, in fact, that they sell for thousands and often are used as a display piece rather than what they were built for. There comes a time when pratical use bumps heads with unpratical building methods, and I'm the type who wants to go fishing, not look a boat behind somebody's display case. To each his own on that.

What gas-to-electric conversion costs of a plane do you have questions about? I'll tell you what, you pick a motor in gas-or-glow and I'll find you a cheap brushless motor than costs less and will probably crush it in performance. I'll also find you the proper size and cell count lipo packs to power it properly, and even throw in the ESC that you'll need to do the job. You will save money, but as the size increases the costs will probably even out at currently available products. A year or two ago about 4 or 5 pounds was the limit for cost savings of electric to gas. I'm willing to be that it's probably around 10 pounds at the moment, maybe much higher, but we won't know until we try. Think of it as an educational exercise of sorts, or another good episode of the "Myth Busters" TV show I'm so fond of.

You have every right to believe fuel is "better" than brushless, but I'd like to discuss your reasons for that with you. Here, I'll give you a few reasons why I think electric is "better" than gas-n-glow: Less sound (unless you want sound, which can be done), Less mess (many fuels eat foam, paint, and other things on planes) to clean up. Less smell (If I'm hankering for a wiff of gas I can always start up my lawn mower). More performance to weight ratio (In motors alone...fuel tanks or lipo sizes can change those results). Instant power (Don't have to wait for the motor to rev up). More reliable...Yes, a brushless motor is much more reliable than a gas motor. There are simply too making moving parts and other variable that go into a gas-n-glow's requirements that it needs to "run". Any one of these factors can cause it to randomly shut down. Of course a brushless motor isn't fail proof, but plain and simple there are less things that can go wrong. For the most part, if a brushless motor isn't going to run it will show you that before it's flown. While it can shut down in the air, the variables that can cause that are far less than gas. For example, an overheated speed control, shorted winding, blown bearing, or bad lipo can cause it to quit. Those are about the only variables that can effect a brushless motor. I bet we could make one heck of a list of things that could cause a gas-n-glow to stop.

I'm not trying to "shut down" gas-n-glow, balsa, or even brushed motor use. All I'm doing is trying to point out the reasons why the trends are such as they are. Fuel planes aren't getting less used because somebody is out to get them, it's by choice of the customer who wants what works with less hassle. Market forces are driven by the customer's need for better technology and price, and that's going to be the bottom line.

critterhunter

You might be right at the present, but the price ratio is changing so fast that it's hard to say. I'll issue you the same challenge so we can find where that current line is. Give me a motor with specs and size/weight of the plane and I'll throw some numbers at you. I'm guessing the point right now is at least 10 pounds, maybe much more, maybe a little less.

critterhunter

Did you read my posts or just glance over them? What motor do you want me to compare to electric and I'll post the ESC and lipo they'll need. We'll find that point of current cost differences so everybody knows. Keep it mind that it will probably double in weight by next year too.

Really, you don't need extras for that gas plane that you don't need in electrics? Like starters, plugs, constant maintenance (brushless is maintenance free), and so on?

"There is no way that combustion engines or balsa and other wood build ups are going to diminish too much within the next centry"? I'm sort'a a history buff, and one of the things that always makes me chuckle is how traditionalists are so often proven wrong. At one time they believed a steam powered trains would crush a person by shear G force if they went anything about a certain MPH, which I think was somewhere around 20 to 40 mph. Many of the top scientists of the day just didn't think a human body could survive that. Then there was the sound barrier and so on. The one way to prove yourself wrong for sure is to stand up and say something can never be done. Give it a little time, a year or less in today's times even, and some outside the box thinker will prove you wrong. Have you seen the pace at which wood patios are being replaced with modern synthetic materials? Reason being ease of use. I see ample parallels to balsa or fuel in just that industry alone.

"Foam can never match the most intracet details that balsa can"? There's that "never" word again. Have you taken a look at some of the homemade foam builds people are doing these days? And I'm not even talking about a foam body kit. I'm talking about somebody carving up a slab in the garage. I'll still contend that there are certain things that would almost ("almost", not "never") be impossible to do with balsa. RTF kits exist for balsa as well as foam, so your point about that makes no sense to me. It depends on what the consumer wants. RTF is a large part of the industry, and foam is going to be both cheaper and easier to manufactor than balsa for those kits. Price drives the market. Think about where that's going on this one.

sharpshooter223

lets start small, OS .10 LA series glow engine- 58.99 through tower hobbies. i can leave out starting equipment because that is already bought for all glow planes that one may own. 12 oz fuel tank- 4.09 through tower hobbies. 2 oz hobbico after run oil- 2.29 again through tower hobbies. a quart of tower power 15% nitro fuel-7.88, costs less if you mix your own like im learning to do, a quart will last me awhile anyway. for that power system it costs 73.25, lets see your coils do that. and also lets see your coils have a very very very pleasant smell that isnt found anywhere else, make the awesome sounds of a 2 stroke, and last for 50+ years. thats right i have an engine that is 50 years old that my grandpa gave me. and it works

Fliprob17

............. Let's go with TowerPro a popular cheaper $$$'s brand:

https://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITED...idProduct=4899 - Motor - $14.55

https://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITED...idProduct=4860 - ESC - $11.75

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXKX39&P=ML - Connectors - $3.09

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXZK96&P=0 - Propeller - $2.79

Let's just assume the same, one already has a battery, charger and balancer - grand total - $32.18

sharpshooter223

um, you cant assume one already has a battery cause a battery is bought different for every plane.

sharpshooter223

ok, well, first, there is nothing anywhere that compares the two, you could just have found a cheap brushless and deciding it looks convinving enough when it could be a very small one for all i know. and also as you said, tower pro is a cheaper brand and going to be on the lower quality side, whereas OS is a very high quality brand and i would trust them with any plane.

Fliprob17

Not even remotely true.......you need to do a little more research. I currently fly 4 planes on the same Thunder Power 2100mah 3 cell Pro Lite Series LiPo.

Fliprob17

I have my little "Cheat Sheet" that has been put together that equates gas motor sizes into Electric Power. Gas and Electric are hard to compare side by side. Each power type is measured completely differently. In Electric, everything is based on total watts vs. the weight of the aircraft.

You asked for a 0.10 Electric equivalent and that is what was posted. If you do not agree with it in some shape or fashion, just do a little more research and figure out how to convert Gas to Electric so that you can verify the recommendations.

TowerPro is used by a lot of people and they seem to handle the wear and tear just fine. All I was saying is that it is less $$$, therefore cheaper

Here is a comparison with more well known name brands:

http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXLWT3&P=0 - Motor - $31.99

http://www.adchobbystore.com/thunderbird18.htm - ESC - $33.96

Now the total with connectors is - $69.04

sharpshooter223

well, as you are saying they are hard to compare, therefore i dont believe you.

sharpshooter223

i would like to end this thread though (one less thing to worry about) so im just gonna say this, the 2 electrics that i do have ill stick to brushed motors. i fly glow and have more fun flying glow than i do flying electric therefore i will stick to glow and if somebody starts to harrass the field i fly at, ill fight for it and be sure to win.

Fliprob17

........[sm=spinnyeyes.gif]..............

critterhunter

Give me a day or two and I'll throw up some of my own numbers, and maybe a few electric/gas-n-glow comparisons for power systems not asked about. Been a little busy lately and barely enough time to check emails.