sharpshooter223

you know what, who cares, you guys have made up your minds and that wont be changed, ive made up my mind and it wont be changed so lets just drop it. except i would still like to see the conversion chart so i can convert stuff to glow

Fliprob17

I don't understand [sm=confused.gif] Nobody is slamming gas/nitro, or saying brushless is the only way. The whole discussion is just a comparison, not a promotion, just a simple comparison/discussion, and some quick examples of how a given gas engine would relate to Brushless Electric. Yes, Electric is becoming more popular because of the ease to find places to fly, vs. driving to a club and paying clud fees. Yes, former gas flyers are converting to Electric, partially due to this. They are both always going to be around. Just relax a little........

Converting: It is almost easier in my mind, to take what was a gas plane, and just forget what size motor is/was in it. Take the overall weight of the plane and multiply it by the watts per pound number required to acheive the performance you are looking for, and the plane is designed for. 90 watts per pound for a Trainer - 110-130 watts per pound for Aerobatic - 130-150 watts per pound for Mild 3D - and 150+ for Unlimited Performance/3D. Total watts is figured out by multiplying the voltage supplied by the battery, times the amp draw of the motor/prop combo. Of course, prop selection plays a key role. Prop'ing down will provide less watts/thrust and prop'ing up will provide more watts/thrust.

Example:
Say you have an aerobatic plane that weighs 1.75 lbs. or 28oz. - take the 1.75lbs and multiply by 120 watts per pound (middle range for aerobatic) = 210 total watts of power you will need to get the plane to perform properly. There is much more involved that helps make the determination, like picking the battery or the motor, and how each of those selections effect each other.............but you may not really care.

4*60

My Feedback: (41)

You still discussing this thread along with this one "ive noticed that over the past 5 years with electric planes growing more and more comming, it is starting to take over the market. who else fears that it will completely push glow engines away and subsitute its inferior power."

started by the same teenager that is laughing his head off that he can get you all excited and discuss nonsense. It's like a prank phone call!

critterhunter

Wanted to chime in for a quick sec. and touch on two points you brought up before. First, lipo powered planes do not have a gradual voltage and performance loss like a nihm or nicad as it discharges. Well, they do somewhat but for all pratical reasons you'll not be able to notice any drop in power output until the lipo is VERY near low voltage cutoff at the end of a flight (probably about 30 seconds or so away from hitting it). Other than that, I'd challenge you to notice any performance drop off during flight. I can't notice any on my birds. That's one of the many advantages of lipos over nimh/nicad. If you are judging electrics on lipo versus nimh/nicad, not to mention brushed versus brushless, you've got nothing to base your comparison to gas-n-glow with. It's like comparing a Harley to a moped.

Reading over some of my older posts I may be coming across as one of those pro-environment global warming freaks. Nothing could be further from the truth. WAY off subject, but anybody who knows their history knows the sun/earth orbit changes back and fourth over time in a cycle. Hence all the prior ice ages we've had (the last one killed off the mamoths that they find frozen in the ground all the time). Bringing this a quick as possible back to the thread, I don't really care if electric is friendlier to the environment than gas-n-glow myself (other than the noise factor for me). This is the parallel I''m trying to draw for you in this paragraph: I chuckle at all the global warming types who say the government has to find a better way to power vehicles. Government isn't going to help at all. It's technology, price, and the consumer. When technology can produce an electric car that people will want to drive (range and performance), and it's at a good price (as cheap as gas or cheaper), then the consumer will demand and buy such a product. That has happened with gas-n-glow versus electric. It hasn't with cars, but will. Long way to a point, but you get my drift.

Here's just one link to a thread on a huge-n-cheap brushless motor that'll power 6 pound+ planes with no problem. You can read up on that thread as I haven't yet. Like I said, still plan to post gas-n-glow motors and the cheap electrics that are designed to replace them along with price list. Just give me a little time to check around.

QF1heavy

Hi, My first encounter with brushless technology has been less than successful. I tried putting a Frio 10/12 motor plus Apollo 25 controller into an Awesome Extrafun XL, and while the power improvement was impressive radio interference from the esc made the plane unflyable! Placing the brushless system near the antenna of a general coverage HF radio receiver revealed high levels of hash especially at 27 to 29 MHz, and this was clearly the cause of the poor radio control range. Oscilloscope tests showed signifcant pulses at about 10kHz on the BEC line, which were probably getting directly into the receiver. I was under the impression the brushless esc's were more or less noise-free, but this one is anything but that! Have I just got a dud, or is this noise problem commonplace?

Any help or comments would be welcome.

Regards,
QF1heavy.

sharpshooter223

why would you hate the noise of a glow plane, its not even that loud, it would be like saying you hate the sound of real planes flying overhead. anyway, the future of cars isnt electric, just doesnt work for anything that big and meant to haul humans. the future is hydrogen , which i acctually have a major interest in, very cheap and very powerful. and by the way, 6 pound planes arent what im interested in, and you have to think of the package as a whole including esp and battery.

ozrcboy

Sharpshooter - including the battery is fair enuf provided that you include the fuel costs for say 100-150 flights.

Battery costs are a real part of the equation, but a battery lasts for many many flights, and probably doesn't even cost 5c to charge. So, if you want the battery cost bullt into the comparision then no probs, you just need to build in an equivalent amount of fuel for flights.

Sound fair?

bilboa

It doesn't matter whether or not you hate it. If the neighbors hate the noise and complain, eventually you'll have to stop, and it will probably hurt other RC flyers' ability to fly there as well even if they're flying quiet electrics. While there probably are some pretty quiet glow planes with the right mufflers, in general they're MUCH louder than similar size electrics. You'd have to be deaf to not hear the difference. If I'm flying my Trex at a local park I'd bet noone living near the park even hears it except possibly when I do a high G manuever which causes the blades to flap. It's very unlikely that they wouldn't notice a nitro heli flying around though; they're like flying weed wackers, and you can certainly hear weed wackers when someone in the neighborhood is using one.

DIYMark

The only experiance ive had with the extrafun xl is anything but good....

sharpshooter223

hell, if people hate the noise and decide to build their houses next to the field, they can go to hell.

critterhunter

First, on the other guy's question of ESC interference...I've never had an issue with it on brushless motors/ESCs. I've even lengthened the 3 motor wires and/or battery leads WAY more than were suggested without problems. I suspect you've got bug in the ESC or a bad RX.

Now, back to sharpshooter...Many of the gas-n-glows I've been near when flying were NOT "not even that loud". In this case, my double negative means the suckers would blast your eardrums pretty good. That'd be like me having a gas weed wacker running behind me while I fly my electric. Just can't relax when I want to and enjoy the day in peace. I don't fly around gas-n-glows since most of them are AMA field types anyway, so it's not an issue with me for the most part.

Electric is just one of the futures for cars like hydrogen, etc. It's just going to take a little time and technology to see which wins out. Again, the factors are ALWAYS going to be price, range and performance, maintenance, and reliability for consumers. If you've got some great new fuel source for cars but nobody carries it then that will kill certain hybrids. The main thing holding back electric isn't performance, reliability or maintenance, it's sorta' a combination of price and range at the moment for platforms that large (hence our airplane size-to-price discussion). The main thing holding back electric cars is the price of the car (most of which is the battery costs), and the range of the vehicle (again, battery related). As far as I know, most of the electric cars up until now have used nimh or nicads. Not sure if lipos are in use yet, but they will...and as the price on those drops and the capacity increases even more (it is every day), electric cars have a real shot at making a "come back" over hybrids. Besides the zero emission thing, being able to just plug it in at home is a major convienence factor for consumers. Hybrids that require re-fueling, even if you are just "pumping gas", will be more hassle to deal with.

You never said 6 pound planes weren't what you were interested in (comparing). So, what are you looking to compare then? If it's smaller platforms the war is already over and gas is running home to lick it's wounds. It simply can't compete with price, reliability, performance, and ease of use (See above car story). For those reasons it's fate has pretty much been sealed. It'll be regulated to the more "fringe" aspects of RC much like control line, wind up free flights, etc. Maybe it won't shrink to those numbers, but it will be very close. To reach that point it might take years, but a vast majority of the damage has already been done to it's market share.

critterhunter

Take a look at this motor I just bought for my homemade, 6 foot wingspan, almost 4 pound bird...

https://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITED...idProduct=3886

$25 motor, produce 3 pounds of thrust at only 25 amps and very efficient. I based this purchase on some extensive testing done by others on rcgroups. It's quality/efficiency/etc will match an Axi (brand name brushless) that would cost you about $130 or so. Take a real good look at the quality of this motor. It's an anodized (sp?) chrome finish that looks like it belongs on a show bike. Comes with all your mounting/prop hardware too. It will replace a .22 2 stroke. Higher k/v versions exist for the same price as well, but I wanted "slow" and powerful on my Big'N build.

Here's a little price comparison shopping for you on this motor. You can throw up your gas-n-glow list to match it.

Motor $25, ESC (30 amp for $15), Battery 3 cell 2200ma 20C (44 amp capable constant...more burst) $29. That's about it, other than the RX and servos which you'd need for your gas-n-glow as well. The above listed battery will give you gobs of flight time on this motor (probably about 20 to 40 minutes based on throttle use. I know from experience that this same sized pack drawing close to 30 amps gives me a ton of flying time on my Stryker, and I fly at full throttle all the time for the most part. Put it this way, on that bird I'm good and ready for a smoke to relax my nerves by the time it dies.

Cheap and Quality often go hand in hand these days with brushless motors. The same overseas companies making a motor for a "brand name" to slap a label on often just turn around and make some "no-name" versions of it they can sell for about 1/5th the price. Same with lipo cells. To some extent that is true with ESCs as well.

Wake up and smell the glow fumes...I'm sorry to say it but the writing is on the wall. Nobody "wishes" or "wants" this to happen, it's just what is happening for all the reasons covered. I go electric simply because it's cheaper, more reliable, easier to use, and better performing. If it was gas I'd be cranking over one of those motors right now.

critterhunter

So true. Pretty much the "standard" for most park flyers and even other platforms (like my Big'N) is 3 cell 2200ma packs. Sure, some guys with front yard platforms go down into the 800ma range or so, but that's just as easy to do. You simply plug two 800ma 3 cell packs in parallel for 1600ma capacity when flying them on a bigger bird, and yoke one out for use single use in your tiny street flyer (now it has 800ma of "gas" in the tank and half the weight). See how easy that is, and no mixing.

critterhunter

That's the problem with your thinking. You think everybody has "made up their mind". I haven't made a choice, I've simply read the facts and followed what they've said...electric is better for the majority of applications unless you reach X weight range. Then price is the determining factor, but not performance.

critterhunter

[sm=confused.gif] Boy, you are young, aren't you? No matter, the info in this thread will prove useful to any old gassers who want to check out electric for themselves.

sharpshooter223

full sized electric cars will never make it, i can guaruntee that. and you have to be exadrating when you talk about how loud glow planes are, ive had a .91 engine running just 10 feet away and still was able to carry on a normal conversation. in the air they are just like there is a bee or a fly a few yards away from you. obviously nobody is going to build a house within 50 yards of a flying field, unless they are liek me and really really love the sound and all. and assuming somebody is at least 50 yards away, the sound shouldnt make a difference. and i would also be surprised if anybody built a house within 150 yards of a flying field. at that point you can barely hear it. heck, when im flying i can hear my engine in the air, but its a soft sound, i can hear real planes flying around much louder than i can be rc plane flying right there. if anybody complains about the sound, they dont acctual care about the sound, they are just trying to be a pain in the ass.

ozrcboy

Sharpshooter - check out this link to Tesla Motors - fully electric car made in the US. 0-60mph in 4 seconds, top speed of 130+mph, range over 200 miles, charge time less than 3.5 hours, Lithium Ion Batteries. I also personally think its a great looking car.

http://www.teslamotors.com/

Only problem - they still haven't begun production, but they look pretty serious and this is one indication of the things to come.

sharpshooter223

sure it looks cool and all, but i would much more prefer a hydrogen powered engine. just need a good way to store it without it being exposed to heat and its all good. id much rather be sitting on a tank full of gas than- and the company kinda implies in the title, a tesla coil.

sharpshooter223

sorry, but ill be laughing if you guys decide to test out these electric cars and it turns out the EM's turn you sterile. nothing personal, it would just be funny

sharpshooter223

maybe cancer too, if theres anythign movies have taught us, sitting on top of a bunch of coils with em's and all can do nothing good for you

critterhunter

I'll respond more specificly later as I'm pressed for time, but wanted to say that you are ignoring history when you say something like "electric will never make it, I gurantee". The ONLY limiting factor for electric cars at the moment is battery price, weight, and capacity. That's it, not sources of "fuel" (any wall outlet), not reliability (way better than gas/hybrid...less moving parts thing again), not performance (electric cars will smoke the doors off a compariable gas vehicle and distance on a charge is fairly good now). With lipo cells they can meet the weight and capacity battery requirements (and the weight/capacity of lipos is getting better all the time), but the price still needs to drop a bit (Battery cost is a good chunk of the car's price...They should shop at United Hobbies or other outlets when building them. ). It's not "if", but "when" battery price/weight/capacity improves just a tad bit more that you'll see the electric car really take off. It's the only thing holding it back right now. All the other technology (motors/etc) are in place.

Flypaper 2

Don't forget the Hindenberg. I wouldn't want to get rear ended with a tank full of hyrogen.

sharpshooter223

well, we have the technology to store hydrogen in a much safer fashion now than they did back then, and i think we are smart enough now NOT to paint our cars and fuel tanks with thermite based paint. anyway, this thread has just become so far off topic we are now debating future cars, so i think its time to just end it. only time will tell.

critterhunter

Most hybrids are going to put one the same amount of "EM" waves since they use a gas motor to charge a battery and run an electric, or some other form of power source to run an electric motor. Of course I'm not talking about alternative fuel types that don't use electric drive motors. This nonsense about EMF impact on the human body is overblown anyway. It won't be any worse then being around most electronic devices for the most part, and you've got to die from something anyway.

critterhunter

No, thread aint dead yet. I'll be throwing fuel/electric RC comparisons up sooner or later. Just can't seem to motivate myself to do much lately.