prottype new Hacker Q80 20P/13s
10-22-2010, 02:57 PM
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prottype new Hacker Q80 20P/13s
I have had a dream…….
The half of the F3A world fly electrified in the meantime; it works great and they are happy with the performance and could forget all maintenance.
Only fly, fly, fly.
And the other half of the F3A world like still the 4-stroke engines and they have all reason to be happy also because this drive sets works really great also.
During the last three years I have observe the different flying styles with both drive-versions very intensive…
.. and I get more and more my personal conviction, that over all, the 4 stroke power is the best compromise to fly F3A smooth, powerful and with constant speed at all wind/weather conditions!
Any ( many) years before, I like my stroke very much; they all run like a sewing machine. Great.
But in the meantime, I like my electrified so much, that I never would go back and I am convinced: they are the future, but …..
…. to fly electrified with the up to date four-stroke power was my great dream!
After the last WC I spoke with any other very well informed European pilots and judges about my opinion and many of them confirm my observation.
Rainer Seubert brought it of the point with his typical short words:
His “winner” at the last WC´s was not a pilot, not the biplane, not the monoplane ……… it was the four stroke!
And he have had a very simple solution; to make it real, an electric motor must only have the same rpm with the same prop like the four stroke engines.
Great steps are simple!
At any (long) talks with Rainer Hacker, I could persuade him to built some prototype motors with this characteristic. After any motors, many, many measurements and test-flights with different original four stroke props together with Günter Ulsamer from the German National Team, we have now the solution ready for market: The Q 80 20P/13s!!
He looks outside like the well known Q 80, but this version is 20 grams lighter. Could be, that the serie is lighter again ( titan-shaft??)
The data are: original APC 20x10,5 with 6950 rpm (at 36,8 Volt / 10s Top Fuel 4500mA under load) and 72 Amps!
Günter and I am sure, that you could fly never before F3A sooo smooth with so much power and a great constant speed!
And the performance of this new drive set make it much easier in several points. Not each click of throttle will punished with speed; it´s not really important, if you fly 45 degree upside with full or half throttle; the speed looks nearly the same!
Because, all looks very smooth, this drive set have much more power if you think at the first moment. It never ends and if there is a strong wind condition, you have only to fly with more throttles. This will be not really fast, but ever, the model fly stabile “in line”, mile far removes from each sponginess
My personal feeling is also, that all horizontal rolls are easier to fly.
It looks like we have more power as four stroke powered models, because we are lighter (4900 grams with 20C TopFuel). ….. and no maintenance, no vibrations, ever the same running characteristic.
The only missing thing is the four-stroke sound; but the Q 80 sounds so wonderful, that this is a great sound-alternative.
We have tried all props and the latest motor works at best with the 20x10,5 APC; accidental the same prop, the best pilots fly at the best and latest four stroke engine.
But with approx. 152 grams, this prop was too heavy for our motors and in the meantime, Günter Ulsamer have a version of his famous carbon-props (weight approx. 70 grams) with the same characteristic.
Over all, we are at the destination of my/ our dream !
Sometimes, great steps are simple.
Now, we are sure, the F3A future is electrified!
At the picture my new Jupiter ( Delro composite line) for season 2011 with Q 80 20P/11s. Official weight at the EC /Austria: 3670 grams without drive-batterie.
(Thanks to Ola Fremming for the nice picture)
The Q 80 20P / 13s will be available before the end of this year.
The half of the F3A world fly electrified in the meantime; it works great and they are happy with the performance and could forget all maintenance.
Only fly, fly, fly.
And the other half of the F3A world like still the 4-stroke engines and they have all reason to be happy also because this drive sets works really great also.
During the last three years I have observe the different flying styles with both drive-versions very intensive…
.. and I get more and more my personal conviction, that over all, the 4 stroke power is the best compromise to fly F3A smooth, powerful and with constant speed at all wind/weather conditions!
Any ( many) years before, I like my stroke very much; they all run like a sewing machine. Great.
But in the meantime, I like my electrified so much, that I never would go back and I am convinced: they are the future, but …..
…. to fly electrified with the up to date four-stroke power was my great dream!
After the last WC I spoke with any other very well informed European pilots and judges about my opinion and many of them confirm my observation.
Rainer Seubert brought it of the point with his typical short words:
His “winner” at the last WC´s was not a pilot, not the biplane, not the monoplane ……… it was the four stroke!
And he have had a very simple solution; to make it real, an electric motor must only have the same rpm with the same prop like the four stroke engines.
Great steps are simple!
At any (long) talks with Rainer Hacker, I could persuade him to built some prototype motors with this characteristic. After any motors, many, many measurements and test-flights with different original four stroke props together with Günter Ulsamer from the German National Team, we have now the solution ready for market: The Q 80 20P/13s!!
He looks outside like the well known Q 80, but this version is 20 grams lighter. Could be, that the serie is lighter again ( titan-shaft??)
The data are: original APC 20x10,5 with 6950 rpm (at 36,8 Volt / 10s Top Fuel 4500mA under load) and 72 Amps!
Günter and I am sure, that you could fly never before F3A sooo smooth with so much power and a great constant speed!
And the performance of this new drive set make it much easier in several points. Not each click of throttle will punished with speed; it´s not really important, if you fly 45 degree upside with full or half throttle; the speed looks nearly the same!
Because, all looks very smooth, this drive set have much more power if you think at the first moment. It never ends and if there is a strong wind condition, you have only to fly with more throttles. This will be not really fast, but ever, the model fly stabile “in line”, mile far removes from each sponginess
My personal feeling is also, that all horizontal rolls are easier to fly.
It looks like we have more power as four stroke powered models, because we are lighter (4900 grams with 20C TopFuel). ….. and no maintenance, no vibrations, ever the same running characteristic.
The only missing thing is the four-stroke sound; but the Q 80 sounds so wonderful, that this is a great sound-alternative.
We have tried all props and the latest motor works at best with the 20x10,5 APC; accidental the same prop, the best pilots fly at the best and latest four stroke engine.
But with approx. 152 grams, this prop was too heavy for our motors and in the meantime, Günter Ulsamer have a version of his famous carbon-props (weight approx. 70 grams) with the same characteristic.
Over all, we are at the destination of my/ our dream !
Sometimes, great steps are simple.
Now, we are sure, the F3A future is electrified!
At the picture my new Jupiter ( Delro composite line) for season 2011 with Q 80 20P/11s. Official weight at the EC /Austria: 3670 grams without drive-batterie.
(Thanks to Ola Fremming for the nice picture)
The Q 80 20P / 13s will be available before the end of this year.
10-22-2010, 03:35 PM
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RE: prottype new Hacker Q80 20P/13s
Now that this is experimented with the Q80, can we conclude that there will no further developments in the geared inrunner? I allways have felt the C50 giving more the fourstroke feeling than the outrunners that I have used.
10-23-2010, 01:13 AM
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RE: prottype new Hacker Q80 20P/13s
[8D] Congratulations on this new development. Your research and determination seem to have a potential for us all for a much smother flyer. Now if you could only come up with a smaller 3/4 size pattern plane engine.
10-25-2010, 01:24 PM
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RE: prottype new Hacker Q80 20P/13s
I've always been saying and thinking that it's not the engine that makes the difference, but the prop and the RPM.
For instance, the YS 170 CDI.. it's usually flown with a prop in the 18.1x11.1 range. Also the fourstroke doesn't incrrease in RPM in downlines, or at least, minor.
So in order to get real YS style flying with an electric engine, I don't think changing windings etc will get you there. I think most electric flyers fly with a way to big prop, making gyroscopic precession a problem. Props like 23x10 etc are not rare.
Also I think there has to be a change in the way ESC's brake. Most current day ESC's only really brake when the engine is 'off'.
So.. to get an YS-like experience, electric, i think we need to fly smaller props, like 18x12, 19x12 tops, and need ESC's that keep the prop spinning at the rate the throttle stick indicates. So like half-throttle is 4000 RPM, weather you're flying an upline or a downline.
if you succeeded in bringing the good qualities of an YS, specifically the braking and running with a smaller prop, to electric F3A.. you'd be my hero. I don't think however you'll really achieve that without reprogramming the ESC.
//edit
removed my anti-YS rant, this thread is about this electric solution.
I really think the biggest gain still to be made, is in ESC software. Smoother and more lineair throttle curves, intelligent throttle monitoring, governor-like braking and, last but not least, use energy from braking to charge lipo's. We could fly smaller packs then.
For instance, the YS 170 CDI.. it's usually flown with a prop in the 18.1x11.1 range. Also the fourstroke doesn't incrrease in RPM in downlines, or at least, minor.
So in order to get real YS style flying with an electric engine, I don't think changing windings etc will get you there. I think most electric flyers fly with a way to big prop, making gyroscopic precession a problem. Props like 23x10 etc are not rare.
Also I think there has to be a change in the way ESC's brake. Most current day ESC's only really brake when the engine is 'off'.
So.. to get an YS-like experience, electric, i think we need to fly smaller props, like 18x12, 19x12 tops, and need ESC's that keep the prop spinning at the rate the throttle stick indicates. So like half-throttle is 4000 RPM, weather you're flying an upline or a downline.
if you succeeded in bringing the good qualities of an YS, specifically the braking and running with a smaller prop, to electric F3A.. you'd be my hero. I don't think however you'll really achieve that without reprogramming the ESC.
//edit
removed my anti-YS rant, this thread is about this electric solution.
I really think the biggest gain still to be made, is in ESC software. Smoother and more lineair throttle curves, intelligent throttle monitoring, governor-like braking and, last but not least, use energy from braking to charge lipo's. We could fly smaller packs then.
10-25-2010, 04:12 PM
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RE: prottype new Hacker Q80 20P/13s
ORIGINAL: hezik
I've always been saying and thinking that it's not the engine that makes the difference, but the prop and the RPM.
For instance, the YS 170 CDI.. it's usually flown with a prop in the 18.1x11.1 range. Also the fourstroke doesn't incrrease in RPM in downlines, or at least, minor.
So in order to get real YS style flying with an electric engine, I don't think changing windings etc will get you there. I think most electric flyers fly with a way to big prop, making gyroscopic precession a problem. Props like 23x10 etc are not rare.
Also I think there has to be a change in the way ESC's brake. Most current day ESC's only really brake when the engine is 'off'.
So.. to get an YS-like experience, electric, i think we need to fly smaller props, like 18x12, 19x12 tops, and need ESC's that keep the prop spinning at the rate the throttle stick indicates. So like half-throttle is 4000 RPM, weather you're flying an upline or a downline.
if you succeeded in bringing the good qualities of an YS, specifically the braking and running with a smaller prop, to electric F3A.. you'd be my hero. I don't think however you'll really achieve that without reprogramming the ESC.
//edit
removed my anti-YS rant, this thread is about this electric solution.
I really think the biggest gain still to be made, is in ESC software. Smoother and more lineair throttle curves, intelligent throttle monitoring, governor-like braking and, last but not least, use energy from braking to charge lipo's. We could fly smaller packs then.
I've always been saying and thinking that it's not the engine that makes the difference, but the prop and the RPM.
For instance, the YS 170 CDI.. it's usually flown with a prop in the 18.1x11.1 range. Also the fourstroke doesn't incrrease in RPM in downlines, or at least, minor.
So in order to get real YS style flying with an electric engine, I don't think changing windings etc will get you there. I think most electric flyers fly with a way to big prop, making gyroscopic precession a problem. Props like 23x10 etc are not rare.
Also I think there has to be a change in the way ESC's brake. Most current day ESC's only really brake when the engine is 'off'.
So.. to get an YS-like experience, electric, i think we need to fly smaller props, like 18x12, 19x12 tops, and need ESC's that keep the prop spinning at the rate the throttle stick indicates. So like half-throttle is 4000 RPM, weather you're flying an upline or a downline.
if you succeeded in bringing the good qualities of an YS, specifically the braking and running with a smaller prop, to electric F3A.. you'd be my hero. I don't think however you'll really achieve that without reprogramming the ESC.
//edit
removed my anti-YS rant, this thread is about this electric solution.
I really think the biggest gain still to be made, is in ESC software. Smoother and more lineair throttle curves, intelligent throttle monitoring, governor-like braking and, last but not least, use energy from braking to charge lipo's. We could fly smaller packs then.
I have just purchased an old Q80 (new to me) since it sounds like it is going an old motor now. Everybody was telling me not to run it due to the low rpm/volt. With this it would normally entail a bigger prop. I agree that the bigger props are causing problems, i believe so anyway.
What i saw at the AOC championships in the Philippines was awesome. A totally different approach to prop selection. On Hatta's Pegasus he had a very wide bladed wood prop on a Q80, what was unusual was it's size. It was a 19x13. (19x14 for the hacker 14XL)These props look almost like the old rubber powered model ones.
Now the funny part is the Japanese with there YS170's were running 20x10.5 APC props. Again these combination's were awesome, quiet and not short of power.
Bring on the new Hacker, i love all this development stuff. what will we have next?
Chris
10-27-2010, 03:06 PM
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RE: prottype new Hacker Q80 20P/13s
We are very excited that the vision of all-electric powered F3A is becoming a reality with the addition of this new version Q80 motor ! We have been very excited with Hacker's dedication to the F3A / Pattern competiton segment.
To answer a few questions mentioned earlier in this thread:
The Hacker Q80-11S 28 Pole motor has been available since May of this year. It is intended for use with similar size props as the winning C50 Competition setups already in use around the world. Many of these Q80 motors are now in the field here in the US and abroad.
As Hacker's R&D department never rests, this new version Q80 20 Pole motor will be an excellent choice for those looking to replace and outperform the popular glow engines using similar prop sizes. This will retain the airframe "feel" in flight that was realized with the glow engine using the slightly smaller prop sizes at higher RPM, while adding the benefits of an outstanding "Constant Speed" and smooth setup for all manuvers.
For those that prefer the winning heritage of the C50 Competition, that line is still being produced.
Mike Donovan
Manager
Aero-Model / Hacker Brushless USA
To answer a few questions mentioned earlier in this thread:
The Hacker Q80-11S 28 Pole motor has been available since May of this year. It is intended for use with similar size props as the winning C50 Competition setups already in use around the world. Many of these Q80 motors are now in the field here in the US and abroad.
As Hacker's R&D department never rests, this new version Q80 20 Pole motor will be an excellent choice for those looking to replace and outperform the popular glow engines using similar prop sizes. This will retain the airframe "feel" in flight that was realized with the glow engine using the slightly smaller prop sizes at higher RPM, while adding the benefits of an outstanding "Constant Speed" and smooth setup for all manuvers.
For those that prefer the winning heritage of the C50 Competition, that line is still being produced.
Mike Donovan
Manager
Aero-Model / Hacker Brushless USA
10-29-2010, 11:22 AM
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RE: prottype new Hacker Q80 20P/13s
Hello Mike,
You are right, but it´s pure chance, that the new Hacker we judge now in our idea "as the next F3A step" is the same design like the first prototype of Q 80 11s.
You are right also, if you say, the Q 80 is a great motor.
I know the Q80 11s really good by myself and all what I could say is, that this design is nearly the optimum of power and efficiency we could get with the knowledge of today ..... if you fly the todays standard F3A props like 21x14, 21x13W, 22x12 etc. No question; that works fanatastic.
And no otherpoint was the demand of this design! The Q80-11s is optimized under wellkown ideas of the traditional electric performance.
But we have tried to think at the next step. And excatly this make the difference!
We have had the idea to fly electrified like YS-powered models. Please believe, we have tested many designs at the basic of the 28 Pole- version before we found, that the
" old" prototype of Q80 , named Q80 20P13s, is the best design for our new idea to fly with 20x10,5 props the same rpm´s like the YS. This version was no more a compromise, the rpm and Amps where exactly we want them and it was great to feel the drive-set in the air!
.... and this version works better and more efficient with these YS-props like the Q 80 28P 11s!
Again, the Q 80 28P 11s is still up to date if you want to fly F3A electrified like we know this since approx. 6 years.
And the C 50 line also (!!); this design is not old, only because we have had a new idea. The different C50 versions works great also. ( I was one of the biggest fan until 3 month ago...)
But the new Q80 20P 11s have the possibilty to open new doors at the electrified F3A history!
In Günter Ulsamer and my imagination, the new complete Q80 20P 13s-drive set better in F3A like the each traditionel drive set with rpm of approx. 6000 and props 21 / 22 diameter.
You should try it!
best regards
Bruno
You are right, but it´s pure chance, that the new Hacker we judge now in our idea "as the next F3A step" is the same design like the first prototype of Q 80 11s.
You are right also, if you say, the Q 80 is a great motor.
I know the Q80 11s really good by myself and all what I could say is, that this design is nearly the optimum of power and efficiency we could get with the knowledge of today ..... if you fly the todays standard F3A props like 21x14, 21x13W, 22x12 etc. No question; that works fanatastic.
And no otherpoint was the demand of this design! The Q80-11s is optimized under wellkown ideas of the traditional electric performance.
But we have tried to think at the next step. And excatly this make the difference!
We have had the idea to fly electrified like YS-powered models. Please believe, we have tested many designs at the basic of the 28 Pole- version before we found, that the
" old" prototype of Q80 , named Q80 20P13s, is the best design for our new idea to fly with 20x10,5 props the same rpm´s like the YS. This version was no more a compromise, the rpm and Amps where exactly we want them and it was great to feel the drive-set in the air!
.... and this version works better and more efficient with these YS-props like the Q 80 28P 11s!
Again, the Q 80 28P 11s is still up to date if you want to fly F3A electrified like we know this since approx. 6 years.
And the C 50 line also (!!); this design is not old, only because we have had a new idea. The different C50 versions works great also. ( I was one of the biggest fan until 3 month ago...)
But the new Q80 20P 11s have the possibilty to open new doors at the electrified F3A history!
In Günter Ulsamer and my imagination, the new complete Q80 20P 13s-drive set better in F3A like the each traditionel drive set with rpm of approx. 6000 and props 21 / 22 diameter.
You should try it!
best regards
Bruno
11-27-2010, 12:36 PM
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RE: prottype new Hacker Q80 20P/13s
ORIGINAL: SchiBru
Hello Mike,
You are right, but it´s pure chance, that the new Hacker we judge now in our idea ''as the next F3A step'' is the same design like the first prototype of Q 80 11s.
You are right also, if you say, the Q 80 is a great motor.
I know the Q80 11s really good by myself and all what I could say is, that this design is nearly the optimum of power and efficiency we could get with the knowledge of today ..... if you fly the todays standard F3A props like 21x14, 21x13W, 22x12 etc. No question; that works fanatastic.
And no otherpoint was the demand of this design! The Q80-11s is optimized under wellkown ideas of the traditional electric performance.
But we have tried to think at the next step. And excatly this make the difference!
We have had the idea to fly electrified like YS-powered models. Please believe, we have tested many designs at the basic of the 28 Pole- version before we found, that the
'' old'' prototype of Q80 , named Q80 20P13s, is the best design for our new idea to fly with 20x10,5 props the same rpm´s like the YS. This version was no more a compromise, the rpm and Amps where exactly we want them and it was great to feel the drive-set in the air!
.... and this version works better and more efficient with these YS-props like the Q 80 28P 11s!
Again, the Q 80 28P 11s is still up to date if you want to fly F3A electrified like we know this since approx. 6 years.
And the C 50 line also (!!); this design is not old, only because we have had a new idea. The different C50 versions works great also. ( I was one of the biggest fan until 3 month ago...)
But the new Q80 20P 11s have the possibilty to open new doors at the electrified F3A history!
In Günter Ulsamer and my imagination, the new complete Q80 20P 13s-drive set better in F3A like the each traditionel drive set with rpm of approx. 6000 and props 21 / 22 diameter.
You should try it!
best regards
Bruno
Hello Mike,
You are right, but it´s pure chance, that the new Hacker we judge now in our idea ''as the next F3A step'' is the same design like the first prototype of Q 80 11s.
You are right also, if you say, the Q 80 is a great motor.
I know the Q80 11s really good by myself and all what I could say is, that this design is nearly the optimum of power and efficiency we could get with the knowledge of today ..... if you fly the todays standard F3A props like 21x14, 21x13W, 22x12 etc. No question; that works fanatastic.
And no otherpoint was the demand of this design! The Q80-11s is optimized under wellkown ideas of the traditional electric performance.
But we have tried to think at the next step. And excatly this make the difference!
We have had the idea to fly electrified like YS-powered models. Please believe, we have tested many designs at the basic of the 28 Pole- version before we found, that the
'' old'' prototype of Q80 , named Q80 20P13s, is the best design for our new idea to fly with 20x10,5 props the same rpm´s like the YS. This version was no more a compromise, the rpm and Amps where exactly we want them and it was great to feel the drive-set in the air!
.... and this version works better and more efficient with these YS-props like the Q 80 28P 11s!
Again, the Q 80 28P 11s is still up to date if you want to fly F3A electrified like we know this since approx. 6 years.
And the C 50 line also (!!); this design is not old, only because we have had a new idea. The different C50 versions works great also. ( I was one of the biggest fan until 3 month ago...)
But the new Q80 20P 11s have the possibilty to open new doors at the electrified F3A history!
In Günter Ulsamer and my imagination, the new complete Q80 20P 13s-drive set better in F3A like the each traditionel drive set with rpm of approx. 6000 and props 21 / 22 diameter.
You should try it!
best regards
Bruno
I am waiting impatiently to the Q80 20P 13s.
Are there any news?
Best regards,
Isaac Najary
11-27-2010, 02:03 PM
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RE: prottype new Hacker Q80 20P/13s
Hello Isaac,
things goes on; this motor will be available shortly.
Please have a look at the Hacker catalogue-nees at: http://www.hacker-motor.com/en/products/q80/index.html
P.s. top job at your Xigris! Congratulations!
best regards
Bruno
things goes on; this motor will be available shortly.
Please have a look at the Hacker catalogue-nees at: http://www.hacker-motor.com/en/products/q80/index.html
P.s. top job at your Xigris! Congratulations!
best regards
Bruno
01-25-2011, 08:40 AM
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RE: prottype new Hacker Q80 20P/13s
Hello Bruno,
See my report at:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_93...15/key_/tm.htm
Posts 371 - 376.
Thank you,
Isaac Najary
See my report at:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_93...15/key_/tm.htm
Posts 371 - 376.
Thank you,
Isaac Najary
05-11-2011, 08:34 AM
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RE: prottype new Hacker Q80 20P/13s
Hi Guys! Any one have more reviews or flight reports about this motor? I am considering this as my next powerplant. Any additional information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
