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  1. #1026

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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread

    [&:]
    Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over ?

  2. #1027

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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread

    [&:]
    Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over ?

  3. #1028
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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread

    .
    Everette, is that you?
    .
    ORIGINAL: Flyer88

    The hype leading up to the plane is .....they are test flying the plane and this pilot has flown it and loves the plane and this other pilot has test flown it and loves the plane too....

    Did they get any useful info out of these pro pilots to publish in the manual as a starting point for a consumer ????

    No it was all a bunch a BS hype the industry is well known for to over promote a plane that is just average. Sorry I don't buy any of the crap.
    Keith Hoard
    Collierville, TN

    NSRCA#2868

  4. #1029

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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread


    ORIGINAL: danamania


    ORIGINAL: rix

    I have my cg set at 190 which puts my packs about 1inch or so in front of the wing tube. In my experience, the Vanquish is not real cg sensitive as I have moved my packs around without much trim change. I just kept moving my packs back until pitch coupling went away on knife edge. 190 is where I ended up with it. I am using a Himax 210 and a heavy APC prop so take that into consideration with your setups. I made adjustments to my incidence until my up trim went away and to set the aileron trim. I suspect I am at .05 or better, stabs are at zero. I installed gator adjusters on the front which made incidence adjustments much easier, It was well worth the time to install them. The plane fly's well in advanced for me with this setup. I am at about 200 or so flights with it this way. I do have a slight pull to the right on exit when pushing to inverted for the full roll outside loop and I have not found a satisfactory fix for it yet. Other than that, no other bad tendency anywhere else flying the Advanced schedule.

    Rick
    Very helpful post, thanks Rick. There were at least 2 other Vanquishes at Pocono pattern last weekend with batteries more forward than mine; and I have read about many others out there on these threads with packs more forward than mine. That said, last night I put mine back up on the balance to re-check CG (still at 186 after a minor repair undid some recent weight reductions LOL) AND have a cold hard look at the elevators as trimmed: they were nearly neutral, just a hair of up, less than 1mm. Was thinking maybe I should move the packs back again towards the 181 end of my range but now after reading your post above, I am not going to make any changes unless we observe some new flight charateristic that needs to be addressed. Your reported flight experience increases my confidence that the config is in fact, very close. *Also, I have been thinking that this design has a very wide CG range which makes it forgiving to those of us who are relative new to pattern (this is my second season and first 2m ship) and your observation above supports that thought.

    The idea of batch variation, at minimum from last year's fin/rudder design to this year's new config, grows stronger in my mind. *After all, it is balsa and ply and those materials must be very difficult to keep constant at this price point. *Could some of this ''where should my batteries be'' back and forth on the threads be due to variations in batches or even individual examples? Anyway, the choice of wing incidence is my next question with a post above about pushing towards 0.8 - 1deg. That gave me pause! Again, I think I will leave it at the 0.5-0.6 for now based on your post (without Gators, tweaking CG is dicey as stock) which is a good thing since my H9 incidence meter just died! I will soon have to replace it, any recommendations? Thx!


    I initially set up my incidence with a borrowed H9 meter but I could never get a consistent reading with it so I gave up and just went flying. The airplane will let you know what it wants and that's how I went about it. Any recommended incidence is just a base reference for you. I just followed the Triangulation Trimming Method as close as possible. One other change I made was I added a little down thrust using one washer which helped the pull to the canopy on up\down lines. Down lines still required 2% down elevator mix, but the up-lines cleaned up after doing that. I may experiment with adding more positive incidence and take out the down thrust to see where that gets me.

    Here is a link to the trimming method I used...It works well.

    http://www.hebertcompetitiondesigns.com/Trimming.aspx

    Rick


  5. #1030
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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread


    ORIGINAL: danamania
    The idea of batch variation, at minimum from last year's fin/rudder design to this year's new config, grows stronger in my mind. *After all, it is balsa and ply and those materials must be very difficult to keep constant at this price point. *Could some of this ''where should my batteries be'' back and forth on the threads be due to variations in batches or even individual examples? Anyway, the choice of wing incidence is my next question with a post above about pushing towards 0.8 - 1deg. That gave me pause! Again, I think I will leave it at the 0.5-0.6 for now based on your post (without Gators, tweaking CG is dicey as stock) which is a good thing since my H9 incidence meter just died! I will soon have to replace it, any recommendations? Thx!

    Flyer88,

    Go to this site http://www.geistware.com/rcmodeling/cg_super_calc.htm , and plug in your model's fundamental areas, moments etc. Tail moment is distance between wing AC and stab AC. Wing AC or stab AC, by convention, are located at 25% MAC of each surface. Choose the static margin you want (I typically choose 15%) and let this program calculate the ideal CG for the airframe. Try to locate your CG as close as you can to the calculated value. It's a good starting point.

    Please note that MAC is somewhere outboard on the wing/stab. If calculation results in CG=30%MAC, you need to locate that spot on the MAC, then project that spot to the fuse. A reasonable range for CG is 10%-25% static margin

    From the little I read of your written word, it sounded to me like you are capable of determining these parameters.....Learn what makes these things tick, aerodynamically. That goes for everyone reading these posts

    Dana,

    CG location is independent of batch to batch variation unless they changed the model aerodynamically (smaller,larger wing, stab, fuse length, etc). That's unlikely since all factory jigs and fixtures would need changes too. Weight is not a relevant parameter in CG measurement.
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

  6. #1031

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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread

    Few things.

    1st we should get back on topic. This is a build thread and not a thread on EF or any other vendor's business practices.

    2nd incidence, cg are most of the time a matter of preference. I usually like to start with .5 on the wing, 0 on the tail and cg at the wing tube and use Bryan Herberts triangulation trimming fro there.

    3rd yes there may be variations between on batch from another. I can say this with authority because I put together two vanquishes my father's and mine. My father's was from the first batch and mine was from the third or fourth batch. I have the batteries further foward  and I'm still running the cg a little more aft than my father. Is this a problem to me, no, all I have to do is mark where the batteries are on each plane.

    4th Yes, I was ASSIMILATED also. All resistance was futile.

    5th. HaPPY Landings

    Guillermo
    Kenobi - I think we lost something.
    Skywalker - Not to worry, we are still flying half a ship.

  7. #1032

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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread

    There has been plenty of good information in this thread. Everyone likes a different setup and the CG can vary depending on each setup, incdence should vary with different CG's too. I don't think there is any one perfect setup for everyone, the perfect setup is what works for you. This is why things were left a little vague in the manual, because if there was a specific CG then we would have people posting tha E.F. doesn't know what they're doing because they don't like that CG, which we already have being said about the recommended starting point for the incidence. These settings came from a pattern pilot that was testing the prototypes and giving feedback to Mr. Hinson. I will e if I can have an addendum made for a starting point on incidence in the manual and see if we can put a starting CG range as well. When I got my plane I set it up on my own, it was my first pattern plane and I basically set it up the same way I do with my IMAC planes then slightly adjusted the incidence and CG to wear I thought the plane snapped and broke on spin entry best. his took roughly around 40 flights, however even tough I settled with a specif setting doesn't mean it doesn't get changed sligtly over time, any good precision pilot will always be chasing a better setting. I posted my set up in the begining of this thread and they are basically the same as what Arch ended up with. Arch and I liked the CG a little more forward in the plane, seems like most others aren't liking that setup, that's what makes it difficult to write a manual with specific numbers. Fact is I think the Vanquish has a more detailed manual than most hig end pattern ships come with, if they even come with one at all.

    I saw a couple posts about the weight and a target weight set for the plane. At the factory there is a target weight for the different parts of he plane, if they weigh the part and it's over it gets disgarded. We are confident that as long as the buyer uses the proper equipment we recommend there will be no issue making weight, I haven't heard of anyone having trouble making weight using the stock hardware and recommendations. As far as the changes made to the rudder and the cowl, it hasn't added weight to the plane. As far as Arch moving on and flying other planes, that's fine, I don't think he was ever expected to solely fly the Vanquish, he was given the plane to do a build thread and he did a good job doing that. The only Extreme Flight team pilot in these forums flying the Vanquish is myself, I have not moved on to anything else because I know this plne is very capable of winning, even without the trojan helmet and other gadgets taped on, lol. Since I am not well known in the pattern community I don't think people will listen to me much. That is one thing I have noticed entering pattern, it seems like unless you are at contests and well known your voice kinda goes unheard. I am very capable of setting up a plane as well as anyone, as well as many other guys in this thread so to say this thread is a waste of time, that is just stupid....

    Lee
    Team EXTREME FLIGHT RC-Team Horizon Hobby-Team Castle Creations-Thunder Power RC-Desert Aircraft

  8. #1033

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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread

    Already done and got my measure.

    And yes I am very capable of doing all this. I just didn't understand why people were so tight lipped about their setups ??

    Its like we're in the pits of an F1 race and everthing is covered up and no peering eyes are welcome.

    Its a hobby !! They are just model aircraft...that cost allot of money I might add !
    Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over ?

  9. #1034
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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread


    ORIGINAL: Flyer88

    Already done and got my measure.

    Its a hobby !! They are just model aircraft...that cost allot of money I might add !
    Great!! Why not fly it there and report back?

    Yes it is a hobby and a sport. BUT, not everyone wants to be an "open book". Come to think of it, not everyone can be....
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

  10. #1035

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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread

    ORIGINAL: Flyer88

    ORIGINAL: RC Accessory

    How a pattern plane flies is subjective to the flyer. What I think is good setup, you may not like. CG will most definately effect how wing incidence can be set. trimming is a long process. As far as EF goes, I simply called them and the followed up with an email. Why hasn't other people on the forum done this? I do not rely on the information from the forums as I have no idea who the person is nor their level of expertise. Some people I do know and take their advice. So instead of asking questions here and not knowing if the information is right, how about sending an email or make a phone call to EF.

    www.extremeflightrc.com
    info@extremeflightrc.com
    Phone: 770-887-1794
    I did put in 5 call yesterday, but no answer.

    Just like F3A Unlimited...????

    How do you run a business and not answer the phone.

    I've been trying to buy a composite pattern plane from this guy ( for the past two months) but he doesnt call back to answer a couple deciding questions for me. And yes I know he was in a car wreck and off work for a while. The last time I checked a couple thousand dollars was not easy to come buy and to splurge it on a model aircraft is pure luxury.

    They don't have to sell their planes or answer questions....they have this forum.

    They give a plane to a pilot with an orange shirt , do a build thread on it, say it's the next best thing since the space shuttle and they sell planes the modern way. Behind a bunch of BS.

    The only reputable plane is Chads in my mind because he is answering questions and supporting the product. I know nobody gets rich off these planes but if you want to get in the game....you better be in the game.

    Ok, you put in 5 calls yesterday, did you leave a message? What time did you call? I find it hard to believe that after 5 calls you got no answer, but if that's true and you left a message you will get a return call by the following day at the latest. Same goes for a email. There has been plenty support in this thread, myself and Arch posted our settings in the beginning of the thread and have been in here off and on since, do you need someone to hold your hand in the thread every day? Do you own a Vanquish?? If you do you wouldn't be posting this poo. It's people with attitudes like you that make people not want to get into pattern, I was warned about your type....

    Lee
    Team EXTREME FLIGHT RC-Team Horizon Hobby-Team Castle Creations-Thunder Power RC-Desert Aircraft

  11. #1036

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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread

    Yes Keith, it's me..........

  12. #1037

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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread

    ORIGINAL: mxcop114

    ORIGINAL: Flyer88

    ORIGINAL: RC Accessory

    How a pattern plane flies is subjective to the flyer. What I think is good setup, you may not like. CG will most definately effect how wing incidence can be set. trimming is a long process. As far as EF goes, I simply called them and the followed up with an email. Why hasn't other people on the forum done this? I do not rely on the information from the forums as I have no idea who the person is nor their level of expertise. Some people I do know and take their advice. So instead of asking questions here and not knowing if the information is right, how about sending an email or make a phone call to EF.

    www.extremeflightrc.com
    info@extremeflightrc.com
    Phone: 770-887-1794
    I did put in 5 call yesterday, but no answer.

    Just like F3A Unlimited...????

    How do you run a business and not answer the phone.

    I've been trying to buy a composite pattern plane from this guy ( for the past two months) but he doesnt call back to answer a couple deciding questions for me. And yes I know he was in a car wreck and off work for a while. The last time I checked a couple thousand dollars was not easy to come buy and to splurge it on a model aircraft is pure luxury.

    They don't have to sell their planes or answer questions....they have this forum.

    They give a plane to a pilot with an orange shirt , do a build thread on it, say it's the next best thing since the space shuttle and they sell planes the modern way. Behind a bunch of BS.

    The only reputable plane is Chads in my mind because he is answering questions and supporting the product. I know nobody gets rich off these planes but if you want to get in the game....you better be in the game.

    Ok, you put in 5 calls yesterday, did you leave a message? What time did you call? I find it hard to believe that after 5 calls you got no answer, but if that's true and you left a message you will get a return call by the following day at the latest. Same goes for a email. There has been plenty support in this thread, myself and Arch posted our settings in the beginning of the thread and have been in here off and on since, do you need someone to hold your hand in the thread every day? Do you own a Vanquish?? If you do you wouldn't be posting this poo. It's people with attitudes like you that make people not want to get into pattern, I was warned about your type....

    Lee
    Look Lee I'm not looking for a pi-g match.

    Yes I own a Vanquish 2M that I can build without help.

    I also own several other planes which I fly and enjoy.

    Am I a Rookie...no (Im Intermediate). But with my Vanquish I had some questions that a knowledgable person
    might ask. And I guess I wasnt far off because allot of others had the same question ?? AND I HAVENT EVEN FLOWN THE PLANE YET they were from pure observation ? I just set the incidence yesterday.
    I plan flying it this weekend and probably won't report back because the first dozen flight are pointless to report.

    I do find servicing customers a big deal, I dont understand why its so poor in this industry. If you have been following this thread, you would have noted that my aircraft had several patchs from the factory. Did I get a response from your company explaining why this might have happened or an offer of good gesture in lue of a substandard airplane. And yes a plane with a patch is either substandard or a factory second.

    What does your company have to say about that....

    your company has my information on file
    Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over ?

  13. #1038

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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread

    Great discussion guys! Welcome back Lee!
    Matt, Lee, what I was trying to get at with batch/model variation is not that the aerodynamic CG would change (or that she wouldn't make weight), rather that the resulting battery location to make the CG range might vary as the moment (weight x arm) of the parts vary naturally as wood parts might. This question is not asked to answer matters of quality (as the heavy parts are not assembled) rather to help us understand why there are many different battery stations are working, assuming that most folks are flying within the acceptable CG range, suited to taste. Could be the wrong question, but I can't think of any other explanation for some packs as far forward as will fit, and others up against the wing tube. Like I said, it is just a question. Is there a better one to ask?
    Good Flying! Dana
    4449NSRC AMA

  14. #1039
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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread


    ORIGINAL: danamania

    *
    Matt, Lee, what I was trying to get at with batch/model variation is not that the aerodynamic CG would change (or that she wouldn't make weight), rather that the resulting battery location to make the CG range might vary as the moment (weight x arm) of the parts vary naturally as wood parts might. This question is not asked to answer matters of quality (as the heavy parts are not assembled) rather to help us understand why there are many different battery stations are working, assuming that most folks are flying within the acceptable CG range, suited to taste. Could be the wrong question, but I can't think of any other explanation for some packs as far forward as will fit, and others up against the wing tube. Like I said, it is just a question. Is there a better one to ask?
    Dana,

    Yes you are correct. One arrives at the CG range by shifting stuff as necessary and batch to batch weight variation makes for the differences in locating stuff

    Electric makes that a little easier since the battery is the single heaviest component and even a slight shift has a great effect.

    In my gas set-up I simply don't have that luxury. The heaviest component has a fixed location...LOL

    BTW- my copy arrived yesterday. I think my gasoline conversion will be around 9# 6 ozs...nice!
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

  15. #1040

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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread


    ORIGINAL: MTK


    ORIGINAL: danamania

    *
    Matt, Lee, what I was trying to get at with batch/model variation is not that the aerodynamic CG would change (or that she wouldn't make weight), rather that the resulting battery location to make the CG range might vary as the moment (weight x arm) of the parts vary naturally as wood parts might. This question is not asked to answer matters of quality (as the heavy parts are not assembled) rather to help us understand why there are many different battery stations are working, assuming that most folks are flying within the acceptable CG range, suited to taste. Could be the wrong question, but I can't think of any other explanation for some packs as far forward as will fit, and others up against the wing tube. Like I said, it is just a question. Is there a better one to ask?
    Dana,

    Yes you are correct. One arrives at the CG range by shifting stuff as necessary and batch to batch weight variation makes for the differences in locating stuff

    Electric makes that a little easier since the battery is the single heaviest component and even a slight shift has a great effect.

    In my gas set-up I simply don't have that luxury. The heaviest component has a fixed location...LOL

    BTW- my copy arrived yesterday. I think my gasoline conversion will be around 9# 6 ozs...nice!
    Good luck !

    I'll put money on it that it's over 10lbs
    Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over ?

  16. #1041

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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread

    I have my incidences around .6 dont know what my CG but as is with this set up flys good, just assemble it and fly it
    smooth pass

  17. #1042

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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread


    ORIGINAL: Flyer88...I just set the incidence yesterday.
    Do tell!? All have shared out their data here, where did you opt to start? Choice of CG for maiden flight? All can learn from each and everyone here so I look forward to your reports now as much (more) as anyone else who now has a Vanquish. Wishing you all the best, please keep us posted!

    Good Flying! Dana
    4449NSRC AMA

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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread

    Now Matt is an expert builder and as much as I wish he'd come over to the dark side (Pletty please Matt!?), I would not bet against his ability to do the conversion in the lightest possible way. Let's support his efforts with the kind respect we are showing each other discussing our electric set-ups!
    Good Flying! Dana
    4449NSRC AMA

  19. #1044

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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread

    ORIGINAL: danamania


    ORIGINAL: Flyer88...**I just set the incidence yesterday.
    Do tell!? All have shared out their data here, where did you opt to start? Choice of CG for maiden flight? All can learn from each and everyone here so I look forward to your reports now as much (more) as anyone else who now has a Vanquish. Wishing you all the best, please keep us posted!

    Set it .5-.6ish and stab at 0. Used the Hanger 9 gauge checked it over about three times.
    I found it quite easy and quick to do. I used a little mini ratchet to get at the screws. Worked great!

    If the CG is anything like my Helios my batteries are going for a big trip to the aft end.
    We will see .......
    I'm just looking for some good velcro tie back straps because mine are in transit
    Then we will maiden .....
    Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over ?

  20. #1045

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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread


    ORIGINAL: danamania

    Now Matt is an expert builder and as much as I wish he'd come over to the dark side (Pletty please Matt!?), I would not bet against his ability to do the conversion in the lightest possible way. Let's support his efforts with the kind respect we are showing each other discussing our electric set-ups!
    No disrespect intended.
    It's all in good fun and I'm sure he's quite capable of making it sub 10 pounds.
    I wish him all the best and I know he's a very capable builder and probably an excellent pilot
    Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it over ?

  21. #1046
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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread


    ORIGINAL: danamania

    Now Matt is an expert builder and as much as I wish he'd come over to the dark side (Pletty please Matt!?), I would not bet against his ability to do the conversion in the lightest possible way. Let's support his efforts with the kind respect we are showing each other discussing our electric set-ups!
    Dana,

    I've spent about the same small fortune on gasoline engines the past 3 years, that I would've spent on e-power. I really like e-power; Dave's contra Bravo is an amazing model. But am having a blast with gas (pun intended). Have sourced super light gas tanks and am outfitting them with plastic fittings that I sourced; found cheap fuel lines that don't harden. Have also developed couplers that don't blow out and stay flexible for 100's of flights. Using $6 a gallon avgas is cheap entertainment and it's plain fun to fly 2 Masters schedules on about 8 ozs gasoline

    All of this is for me basically and the very few souls that want to follow. All this development has probably come about 10 years late

    I'm having more fun now than possibly ever in RC and I've been at this for some 44 years now. It is all kool stuff. And thanks for the support
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread

    BTW- my copy arrived yesterday. I think my gasoline conversion will be around 9# 6 ozs...nice!
    OS 33?
    Bob

  23. #1048
    rgreen24's Avatar
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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread

    Flyer 88, not sure if you have Lowes in Canada or home depot, but the both sell excellent Velcro for batteries.

  24. #1049

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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread

    We got a break in the rain and tomorrow looks good for the first flight. Charging batteries now.

  25. #1050

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    RE: Extreme Flight Vanquish 2m Build Thread


    I did put in 5 call yesterday, but no answer.

    Just like F3A Unlimited...????

    How do you run a business and not answer the phone.

    I've been trying to buy a composite pattern plane from this guy ( for the past two months) but he doesnt call back to answer a couple deciding questions for me. And yes I know he was in a car wreck and off work for a while. The last time I checked a couple thousand dollars was not easy to come buy and to splurge it on a model aircraft is pure luxury.

    They don't have to sell their planes or answer questions....they have this forum.

    They give a plane to a pilot with an orange shirt , do a build thread on it, say it's the next best thing since the space shuttle and they sell planes the modern way. Behind a bunch of BS.

    The only reputable plane is Chads in my mind because he is answering questions and supporting the product. I know nobody gets rich off these planes but if you want to get in the game....you better be in the game.
    [/quote]

    I agree, not the way to run a business.


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