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Jetti Pro Spin 99

Old 06-24-2013, 07:19 PM
  #26  
AmericanSpectre505
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

Hey Joe,

I have done the following many times already. I always forget step number 4.. Thanks for reminding me... I think I just about have it figured out now, except the braking. I need less rain, so I can fly.

Thank to everyone that participated, much appreciated.

Bill
Old 06-24-2013, 09:35 PM
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

I'm using the Hacker-Jetti Master 90 Comp with a Pletty Advance and am routinely using 4000 mah in the AMA Masters pattern which seems high to me. Did you have the timing monitor turned on in yours? Any idea what it does? I'm running a Pletty Advance with fixed endpoints, 24 degrees timing, new 5000mah Zippy Compacts, and so on. Most of the settings I'm using are comparable to the Spin 99 settings I'm seeing from Chad and others. The motor and controller are barely above ambient after I land. Everything is working great but the power consumption seems excessive for what I'm doing. I never hit or need full power throughout the sequence.

Thanks,
Verne Koester


ORIGINAL: cchariandy

4200maH for P and even more for F using TP G8 5000s, Falcon 21X14, 4750gm Xigris. I used linear for the Tx curve and have a nearly stratight line on the Tx. I will try 25 degrees for the timing and switch the timing monitor and setting thru RC off and see what I get.
Old 06-25-2013, 06:30 AM
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

I had the "setting thru RC" ON. Although "Timing monitor" is in the Jeti Box Manual and flow chart I could not find it scrolling through the Jeti Box.

I have changed the stetting thru RC to OFF, my full throttle end point to fixed (1.9ms) and adjusted my ATV to match it, reduced the acceleration time and brake dead to be similar to Chads set up...those were the only significant differences.

I'll test it when it stops raining to see if I get any improvement.

Colin.
Old 06-25-2013, 07:56 AM
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

I finally found some documentation on the Timing Monitor. It allows you to turn the beeping sound in the motor on or off that happens during programing and when the controller initializes. Obviously, a good thing to leave on. I'll have to look elsewhere on why my mah consumption is higher than I think it should be.

Verne Koester


ORIGINAL: cchariandy

I had the ''setting thru RC'' ON. Although ''Timing monitor'' is in the Jeti Box Manual and flow chart I could not find it scrolling through the Jeti Box.

I have changed the stetting thru RC to OFF, my full throttle end point to fixed (1.9ms) and adjusted my ATV to match it, reduced the acceleration time and brake dead to be similar to Chads set up...those were the only significant differences.

I'll test it when it stops raining to see if I get any improvement.

Colin.
Old 06-25-2013, 09:01 AM
  #30  
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

Where did you guys get the setting for timing advance (24deg, etc)? Timing advance uses energy, the higher the number the more energy used and heat produced. I'm not saying 24deg is wrong, just want to know where it came from. I have a Pletty Advance also. I looked in several places (websites, ESC manuals, motor manuals, etc) to find a recommended timing setting and found nothing.

Based on my few hours of research:
*The ESC and motor work as a system to know when to switch current (corresponding to positive/negative and magnet poles), based on position of stator and magnets.
*Timing advance is an ESC setting that allows the user to mess with the system. You are altering when the current changes - timing ADVANCE implying that the current is changing ahead of when the system would do so otherwise. What this does: creates a pulling force on the rotor before it aligns with the stator.

I think it is important to understand how this stuff works before I go messing with it. So, here is a great analogy. A lot of people talk about compression in an IC engine. Forget that. Think about riding a bicycle. For the average guy riding a bike, he pushes down on the pedal. Your body senses when the pedal is at the right position and you push down on the pedal. This would be no timing advance. Now imagine you have those fancy bicycle shoes that clip into the pedals. (I had them once and fell in a big cold puddle. It sucked.) The point of those shoes is so you can PULL on the pedal while the other foot is pushing down. You are now simulating TIMING ADVANCE. On a bicycle, there are basically two key points (sort of corresponding to the top and bottom, or really front and back, of pedal stroke) 180 degrees apart. If you started pulling up exactly at 180 degrees (just as you pass the bottom) you would burn a ton of extra energy, using imagination it seems like it would be pretty difficult. There will be some ideal point where you want to start pulling, for optimum power and efficiency. You could also really screw up and try pulling on the pedal before it gets all the way to the bottom of the stroke. You'd end up trying to pedal backwards and pulling against the foot on the other side. Our motors have 3 poles, so they are 120 degrees apart, and 60deg advance would be half way between poles.

Ok my attention span is shot. Hopefully that expalained something to someone. At least I learned from it. So timing advance - if you feel you are burning up too much energy, reduce your timing advance. The ESC should be able to figure out when to push and pull on the magnets without us telling it otherwise. If people are using 24deg and it's working, then use it. But if there are issues with power and consumption, try lowering it. From what I have read the Pletty has more than enough power, I am sure we can afford to run at a lower advance setting.
Old 06-25-2013, 09:37 AM
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

Joe,
The timing number in the Hacker manual and web site says 25 degrees.
Bill,
The concept of the brake is to “not” stop the prop, rather to maintain a controlled rotation to create a large plate the diameter of the prop. With no brake, the prop will just windmill on downlines and continue to speed up. If the brake is set too high, the prop will do the opposite and come to a complete stop, again not creating the plate affect we want to slow the plane in downlines.
The brake will not engage if the ESC detects any input above the low throttle setting. In other words, to engage the brake the throttle has to be at zero with no idle trim. If you arm the ESC and then bump up the trim to an idle the brake will not set.
One test for brake strength is on landing. I don’t want to see the prop stopped on approach…just a bit of rotation on touchdown.
It’s a fine line. On my Q80, bumping up the brake by just 5% will stop the prop on downlines and it falls like a rock.
Old 06-25-2013, 12:45 PM
  #32  
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99


ORIGINAL: gaRCfield

Ok my attention span is shot. Hopefully that expalained something to someone. At least I learned from it. So timing advance - if you feel you are burning up too much energy, reduce your timing advance. The ESC should be able to figure out when to push and pull on the magnets without us telling it otherwise. If people are using 24deg and it's working, then use it. But if there are issues with power and consumption, try lowering it. From what I have read the Pletty has more than enough power, I am sure we can afford to run at a lower advance setting.
Timing is not meant as a tuning parameter, it is specific for motor design. For a 20 pole Pletty that number is 24 degrees, the esc will auto advance from that based on load.
Too low a timing setting can destroy your esc.
Old 06-25-2013, 02:13 PM
  #33  
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

Damn nice explaination Joe!

bholsten
Old 06-25-2013, 02:30 PM
  #34  
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99


ORIGINAL: Portlandflyer

Joe,
The timing number in the Hacker manual and web site says 25 degrees.


Bill,
The concept of the brake is to “not†stop the prop, rather to maintain a controlled rotation to create a large plate the diameter of the prop. With no brake, the prop will just windmill on downlines and continue to speed up. If the brake is set too high, the prop will do the opposite and come to a complete stop, again not creating the plate affect we want to slow the plane in downlines.
The brake will not engage if the ESC detects any input above the low throttle setting. In other words, to engage the brake the throttle has to be at zero with no idle trim. If you arm the ESC and then bump up the trim to an idle the brake will not set.
One test for brake strength is on landing. I don’t want to see the prop stopped on approach…just a bit of rotation on touchdown.
It’s a fine line. On my Q80, bumping up the brake by just 5% will stop the prop on downlines and it falls like a rock.

That's what I figured, I have never run a brake until now and I get the wind mill effect on downlines, because I do not have it set correctly. How do you know where to set the brake to engage via the low end/trim, that is the part I am confussed with? I am going to try Chad's setup and use the idle down switch. Not idle trim... Got it! Should I take it to an idle and bump the trim down until it stops or will using a switch do the same?

Feel pretty stupid being an FAI/F3A flier asking these questions. I flew 2009 and won the Districts (2) flying a YS and playing with EP and then went overseas, just started flying again. I am just trying to bridge the gaps in my knowledge of setting these things up. Thanks for being patient with me,....

bill
Old 06-25-2013, 04:21 PM
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

I keep it simple on setup. I just set the low side at fixed with throttle trim set to the mid point. If you do that when you arm and go to low throttle, you will be at zero throttle and the brake will set. If it doesn't you may have to bump the trim down a hair, but it shouldn't need it. I do ALWAYS use a kill switch that is off before I arm and switch it off after landing. One way to tell if the brake is set on the ground is to hit the power and go to zero. You should hear a faint squeal just before the prop stops turning. Once you hear it, you will know.
Old 06-25-2013, 07:33 PM
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

This is the stuff I need yo know instead of countless hours of trial and error.

I will set that tomorrow, Thanks for the help!

Bill
Old 06-25-2013, 09:26 PM
  #37  
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99


ORIGINAL: BHolsten

This is the stuff I need yo know instead of countless hours of trial and error.

I will set that tomorrow, Thanks for the help!

Bill
I have not followed this thread but if you are trying to set up a brake, here is the idea. Set the ESC low end to a fixed 1.1 msec. Set up an idle up/down switch to switch the transmitter low end pulse width to a value just below 1.1 msec and just above 1.1. I do this with two throttle curves. Set the value above 1.1 to your desired idle rpm. You can touch it up with the throttle trim. Set the one below 1.1, just low enough to arm the ESC. With some ESCs the motor will start at idle when you switch from the arm position to the idle position. If it doesn't start you may need to jog it with the throttle stick to get it started and then pull the stick back to idle. On the ground switching to the arm position will stop the motor, but in the air it will apply the brake when the throttle stick is pulled all the way back. Once set up you never need to touch the idle trim again. In addition, always set up a throttle kill switch that disables the throttle stick for safety reasons.

Jim O
Old 06-26-2013, 10:35 AM
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

Thanks for the info. Jim much appreciated.

It's kool to see the different variations of how individual set ups are done.

Much appreciated.

bholsten
Old 06-26-2013, 03:39 PM
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

First, sorry to get a little off topic - the Pletty was mentioned above and got me distracted.

I respectfully disagree that timing is a specific setting. If you read the Hacker Q80 manual, the 25deg is a 'recommended' setting ( https://www.aero-model.com/download....-Anleitung.pdf ). Recommended setting for A60 motors is 20-25deg.
It is true that too low of a timing is bad. Basically too low timing advance means the motor isn't pulling hard enough on the magnets to get up to the next winding (like pushing down on a bike pedal before it passes the top). So yes, there is a minimum, but timing is absolutely a tuning mechanism. The RC car guys use it a lot - they balance pinion gearing with timing advance to get good torque and top speed.

I might believe that timing adjustment is limited on a 28 pole motor, still have to work through that scenario. I do agree that there is a limit to the range of adjustment, but there is a range.

From Castle's website:
What you’ll find when you experiment with timing advance settings, is that going up or down from the normal setting will cause two reactions. With each step down from normal, your motor temp will go down and the top speed will go down about the same as dropping a tooth on the pinion. Going up, it’s just the opposite – it’s like adding a pinion tooth, but the motor temp will go up ...
Higher advance makes the motor run hotter, and the higher the Kv of the motor, the hotter it will get! Too high of an advance setting will give the same results as too much advance on a brushed motor – you will actually LOSE power and speed while the motor cooks itself!
Hacker ESC settings:
Auto: 7-30 deg
Soft: 7deg (2-pole motors)
Hard: 22-30deg (multi-pole motors)
Old 06-26-2013, 06:44 PM
  #40  
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

I will disagree, because I have reset controllers to lower timing, and had them fail, and subsequently had the manufacturer tell me that is what caused the failure. It causes some back feeding from the motor to ESC when the timing is incorrect.

If you email Pletty and ask the timing, they will tell you its 24 degrees.

You can play with it if you want, but my experience in doing just what you are suggesting caused equipment failure within two flights of making the change. Not going to get into a technical pee contest, because its pointless, but I have been there, done that, and broke my stuff doing it!


ORIGINAL: gaRCfield

First, sorry to get a little off topic - the Pletty was mentioned above and got me distracted.

I respectfully disagree that timing is a specific setting. If you read the Hacker Q80 manual, the 25deg is a 'recommended' setting ( https://www.aero-model.com/download....-Anleitung.pdf ). Recommended setting for A60 motors is 20-25deg.
It is true that too low of a timing is bad. Basically too low timing advance means the motor isn't pulling hard enough on the magnets to get up to the next winding (like pushing down on a bike pedal before it passes the top). So yes, there is a minimum, but timing is absolutely a tuning mechanism. The RC car guys use it a lot - they balance pinion gearing with timing advance to get good torque and top speed.

I might believe that timing adjustment is limited on a 28 pole motor, still have to work through that scenario. I do agree that there is a limit to the range of adjustment, but there is a range.

From Castle's website:
What you’ll find when you experiment with timing advance settings, is that going up or down from the normal setting will cause two reactions. With each step down from normal, your motor temp will go down and the top speed will go down about the same as dropping a tooth on the pinion. Going up, it’s just the opposite – it’s like adding a pinion tooth, but the motor temp will go up ...
Higher advance makes the motor run hotter, and the higher the Kv of the motor, the hotter it will get! Too high of an advance setting will give the same results as too much advance on a brushed motor – you will actually LOSE power and speed while the motor cooks itself!
Hacker ESC settings:
Auto: 7-30 deg
Soft: 7deg (2-pole motors)
Hard: 22-30deg (multi-pole motors)
Old 06-27-2013, 06:03 PM
  #41  
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

Okay,

Two days of playing with the TX and the Jeti box/spin 99. The best I can get via my "WATTS UP" meter is 2640 Watts, 69.2 Amps on fresh Zippy 25C-5000 packs (All four of them). The Jeti box indicates I am turning my APC 20.5x14 at 6040 Rpms (seem's low). I had better numbers with the exact setup in the beginning; 2880 Watts, 74.75 Amps and no idea what the Rpms were. I have no idea what the combination was I used, it was partially Auto set, I do remember that. I figure, I am about 700 Rpms/200 watts short verses what I am hearing from others using the Spin 99 or the Mezon OPTO 95 with the Q80-14XS.

I did discover in the Measuring parameters in the Jeti box that the "poles" was set/defaulted to 6 and I changed that to 28 (guessing that is just for accurate measuring). I don't get it...., my Pletty 30-10 EVO has a Jeti 90 Plus and it has scary power! My Hacker A60-7S-V2 with the same prop. and batteries is hitting 2660 Watts and 72.0 Amps Max with a Castle 80 HV.

I am using Chad's set up and it did get better, thanks! I turned the RC On and set the high throttle and tested it, made it Worse. I think I remember what the original combination was, so I think I will try that again. It seems to have plenty of power and it's working way better than the 80 HV did with this motor. The Castle 80 HV works fine on the other two motors, not this one.

I'm out of ideas,..other than better batteries like the new TP G8 25C-5000/5400 packs or maybe F3A Unlimited 35C-5100's? I bet I would get better numbers,...

I just need the weather to cooperate, so I can fly, two weeks of storms already (everyday).....Geeezzzzz.

Anyone have any Cool Power 30% YS fuel or 30% Heli?

Hope to see some of you at the NATS!

Bill Holsten
2009 FAI/F3A District 2 Champion
Old 06-27-2013, 06:22 PM
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

I had issues with the same ESC on Neu f3a motor earlier this year. The highest RPM number achievable is around 6000 and the ESC can enter the cutoff mode half way through the sequence. At the end, I switched to a CC 120 and never looked back.
Old 06-27-2013, 06:29 PM
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

Are you referring to the Spin 99 or the HV 80? I am thinking about using the extra Caps (capacitors) to experiment with on the 80 HV.
Old 06-27-2013, 06:43 PM
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

99. 80 may not allow max current equal or greater than 80a. That is why I went for CC120. Before the 99, the ESC was 80.
Old 06-27-2013, 06:53 PM
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

I never got close to 80Amps with the 80 HV best I ever got with the 80HV with the Q80 was around 64 Amps and 1980-2100 watts. Good to know, I am patiently waiting for the NUE outrunner to be released.

Bill
Old 06-27-2013, 06:59 PM
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

Yes, Neu f3a is something.
Old 06-27-2013, 07:32 PM
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

Hi Bill,

Just ran my setup, with the Pletty Advance, Falcon 21.5x13 and TP G8 5000 Prolite+ with 70 cycles on them fully charged. I peaked at 3000W/80A and stabilized out at 2800W/76A. Couldn't get the RPM (too dark) but sounds well over 6k, thinking 6400/6500. This was with the settings I posted the other day.

You should be in that ballpark with the 20.5x14, 6000 rpm is low on any of the new motors/batteries.

PS: Pletty's are 20 pole motors, count the magnets to find the # of poles.


ORIGINAL: BHolsten

Okay,

Two days of playing with the TX and the Jeti box/spin 99. The best I can get via my ''WATTS UP'' meter is 2640 Watts, 69.2 Amps on fresh Zippy 25C-5000 packs (All four of them). The Jeti box indicates I am turning my APC 20.5x14 at 6040 Rpms (seem's low). I had better numbers with the exact setup in the beginning; 2880 Watts, 74.75 Amps and no idea what the Rpms were. I have no idea what the combination was I used, it was partially Auto set, I do remember that. I figure, I am about 700 Rpms/200 watts short verses what I am hearing from others using the Spin 99 or the Mezon OPTO 95 with the Q80-14XS.

I did discover in the Measuring parameters in the Jeti box that the ''poles'' was set/defaulted to 6 and I changed that to 28 (guessing that is just for accurate measuring). I don't get it...., my Pletty 30-10 EVO has a Jeti 90 Plus and it has scary power! My Hacker A60-7S-V2 with the same prop. and batteries is hitting 2660 Watts and 72.0 Amps Max with a Castle 80 HV.

I am using Chad's set up and it did get better, thanks! I turned the RC On and set the high throttle and tested it, made it Worse. I think I remember what the original combination was, so I think I will try that again. It seems to have plenty of power and it's working way better than the 80 HV did with this motor. The Castle 80 HV works fine on the other two motors, not this one.

I'm out of ideas,..other than better batteries like the new TP G8 25C-5000/5400 packs or maybe F3A Unlimited 35C-5100's? I bet I would get better numbers,...

I just need the weather to cooperate, so I can fly, two weeks of storms already (everyday).....Geeezzzzz.

Anyone have any Cool Power 30% YS fuel or 30% Heli?

Hope to see some of you at the NATS!

Bill Holsten
2009 FAI/F3A District 2 Champion
Old 06-28-2013, 03:54 PM
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

Okay Guys,

I had an opening in the weather and took off to test my new settings..., not overly impressed. However, I did accomplish may things you all shared here. The switch for the idle down to engage the break (Awesome!). The use of a throttle kill switch to initially arm the ESC, so I don't have to move throttle trim. The new throttle curve which I really like (thanks Brenner).

I called Aero-Model and spoke with Mike in length about the ESC and the Hacker Q80-14XS. I was educated very well and now understand the correlation between setting the end points and matching those, as close as possible in the ESC.

I reset my fixed points to 50% on my low and the high (14MZ) I moved my end points up until the ESC armed, initially it was around 78 percent. I wanted 100, so I went into the ESC and moved my low end point from 1.08 to 1.12 and did the process again, bingo 103% (no loss in resolution). I pulled the prop. and did the same for the high end. The high end actually was at max RMP at full throttle at 57 percent and the end point was at 100 prior, so I again went into the ESC program and moved it from 1.80 (I reset it) to 2.07 and bingo,..104 on the high side (no dead space in the stick at the high end,..Groovy!). I did this for resolution on the stick. Mike was very gracious in explaining the potentiometer attached to the gimbles in the TX and how that directly relates to the ESC input/output sensing (since I'm an electronic nerd, it made sense). That was the reason for achieving 100 percent (not necessary to do so, but Mike expalin the relation to power in step percentages to timing, resolution, etc and I wanted to get as precise as possible ).

Soooooo...., the end result currently, I am at 2778 Watts and 72.1 Amps (static) with a 20.5 x 14 APC, better batteries (better chemistry) will help for sure . I am going to try the new 25C-4600 F3A from Aero-Model.com, due to the difference in chemistry from what I am currently using. I am also waiting on G8 5400-L packs and will try F3A Unlimited packs.

Gents, Mission accoplished and Thank you for all the input.

I used Chad's program and switch philosophy and Brenner's Throttle curve in the Contra post #1160 and converted it to an exponential curve in the radio (it does it for you, sort'a, just say "No").

"Big Thank You" to Mike at Aero-Model for taking so much time to talk with me and pass knowledge.

Bill Holsten
Old 06-29-2013, 04:43 AM
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

Guys I had a pretty good prop strike with my prop at a recent contest.. I took all the electrics out for and inspection, all looked good, tight etc... But went to practice yesterday and when i powered up for takeoff the plane had just left the ground and terrible
vibrational type noise came out.. When the prop strike happened, I cleaned the mud off the prop and fixed the gear, then in the next round and I was flying Advanced and was a just two maneuvers away from finishing and this vibrational noise came for the first time, I aborted and landed.. when my caller went to retrieve the plane and said he smelled an electrical burn smell... the plane did smell bad inside.. but in checking all components nothing seemed out of order.. looked good..no burnt wires etc.. I flew no more out of caution..
When later after returning to my home field went to practice and had three good flys with absolutely no issues, but third flight and just started to rotate and bang this vibrational sound appeared I landed under power, but it can not get above 1/2 throttle.. Could the Jetti Pro have suffered a serious issue, or maybe the motor a Q-80 bit the dust???
Im fairly new to electrics, but this is weird.. Can you send the ESC in for repairs IF that is the problem, or is it trash..
A friend said he had a prop strike taxiing back to pits and his ESC wouldn't arm again... But I don't believe it was a Jetti either...
Thanks for any ideas!!! Charlie
Old 06-29-2013, 05:51 AM
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Default RE: Jetti Pro Spin 99

I had a Castle ICE 80HV 2 burn up when my motor mount broke and the motor twisted off the motor leads. I sent it back to Castle and they replaced it with a new one for a flat fee of $100. You should send the ESC back to the MFG or distributor. Most have a generous repair/replace policy.

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