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  1. #26

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    Rune,

    I think that this unit is ok in that sense. If my understanding is correct, you program a predefined set of parameters based on the voltage of the pack and this unit reacts the same way every time. Its not like what Hacker were doing with their Centrol unit where the controller took it upon itself to adjust the output based on RPM and give a fixed RPM per stick position. This unit is only taking a predefined action based on a voltage setting while not being aware of the result. It still requires the pilot to manage the throttle and speed of the model

    Hope that all makes sense.
    Niall

  2. #27
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    Hey Ed, on Figure 4 of the instruction manual you have 2 deans connectors coming from the ESC. of course one is for the battery what would the other deans connector be for? Is this situation on figure 4 if you are running to 5s battery pack instead of a 10s brick pack?

  3. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by RuneG View Post
    What does the sporting code say to devices like this ......helping the pilot , getting "input" from the plane /equipment and makes adjustement to what the pilot acctually tells the plane to do.....
    Sounds to me that this is working a bit in the "grey aerea" off whta should be legal

    Hi Rune,
    This is not at all like that Senstrol (or whatever it was called).

    This effectively limits the max power , within the volt limit that exists.
    My understanding is that this removes most of the perceived fall off in the power system as the battery discharges.
    If it was in the ESC's there would be no question about it.

    It should simply be viewed as being part of the motor control circuitry - electric motors require control circuits. As do CDI's. CDI's have automatic advance and retard functions built in so as to 'help' them control the engine they are on/controlling/managing.

    Brian
    Last edited by serious power; 12-18-2013 at 08:48 AM.

  4. #29
    Malcolm H's Avatar
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    Sporting Code 5.1.2 states:
    Automatic control sequencing (pre-programming) or automatic control timing devices are prohibited.


    I would point out that every Jeti ESC with manual brake settings uses pre-programmed timing to automatically change from an initial to a final level of braking over an adjustable time. This is completely against the rules but has been quite rightly overlooked as its only purpose is to limit the inertial loads imparted to the airframe and doesn't provide any advantage to the pilot.

    Sporting Code also states:

    Permitted: Manually operated switches or programmable options to couple and mix control functions.

    In my opinion the Throttle-Tech is simply a device which couples and mixes throttle position and battery voltage. More importantly it is an open loop control system whose parameters are set before the flight comences and is thus totally legal.

    Malcolm


  5. #30
    it was just a thoght, its silly if a pilot is standing in any competition and got disqualified because off it! and the Jeti brake and also the Castel(I think) ..I had not think about that!!
    Rune Gjelsnes
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  6. #31
    rgreen24's Avatar
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    Last edited by rgreen24; 12-18-2013 at 12:48 PM. Reason: Double post

  7. #32

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    Hello All,
    Nearly a decade back, Dave Lockhart and I practically begged one ESC manufacturer to create just such a function.
    Now because Ed was willing to build it, it exists.
    Regards,
    Dean Pappas.

  8. #33

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    Hi Robert, that picture is showing a series connection for two 5s packs into one 10s pack to the esc.

    David Snow

  9. #34
    rgreen24's Avatar
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    Thanks Dave, that's what I thought; makes sense now. If it will help limit my mah usage in flight without loss of power. I will gladly give it a go.
    Last edited by rgreen24; 12-18-2013 at 01:12 PM.

  10. #35

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    I've had it for most of the year and it works very good, not sure it really reduces mah usage but it does make the various packs feel the same and the throttle has a constant feel throughout the flight except maybe the last few maneuvers on the older worn out packs.

    Dave Snow

  11. #36

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    Hi Dave,
    If you innately have excellent throttle management, then there will be no reduction in battery consumption.
    It's the folks who inadvertently burn a little excess power, early in the flight, who will benefit the most.
    Sport flyers should love this thing!

    Oh yes, and Malcolm's assessment of the function and legality of the device is spot-on.

    Dean P.

  12. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by RuneG View Post
    What does the sporting code say to devices like this ......helping the pilot , getting "input" from the plane /equipment and makes adjustement to what the pilot acctually tells the plane to do.....
    Sounds to me that this is working a bit in the "grey aerea" off whta should be legal
    Rune:

    Functionally, this isn't any different than the pressure regulator on a YS. All the internal mechanisms are different, but the end result is like running a well tuned YS in that the motor does what you ask it to throughout the flight. It's an open loop system. There isn't any feedback to it about the actual performance of the model or even the motor. It can sense one thing, which is the voltage of the motor's LiPo. And when you think about it, that's what a pressure regulator does in essence. Substitute fuel pressure for electrical pressure, AKA voltage. An oversimplification? Yes, but functionally, no real difference.
    Ed Alt
    Tech-Aero Designs LLC

  13. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by rgreen24 View Post
    Hey Ed, on Figure 4 of the instruction manual you have 2 deans connectors coming from the ESC. of course one is for the battery what would the other deans connector be for? Is this situation on figure 4 if you are running to 5s battery pack instead of a 10s brick pack?
    Both of the Deans connectors in that illustration are for connecting to the battery pack, which is comprised of 2 5S packs as is typical. One goes to one 5S pack, the 0V or negative side, and the other to the other 5S pack for the positive side. They get combined in in a harness to the ESC that simply connects the two 5S packs together with one of its wires. Bottom line, the LiPo Tap has the brown or black wire soldered to the black, 0V or negative wire from your ESC, and the red wire from the LiPo tap goes to the red wire on the ESC.
    Last edited by NJRCFLYER2; 12-18-2013 at 06:24 PM.
    Ed Alt
    Tech-Aero Designs LLC

  14. #39

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    Hi All,

    I had every intention of jumping in sooner, but have been busy getting an F3P Team Trials setup for the US. With temperatures around 30F / 0 Celsius, snow and ice, and nasty wind, I am not in the F3A mindset

    I started flying electrics in 2003, and electric F3A in 2006. The biggest fallacy of electric is that the power is the same every time. It is not. It is very dependent on the ambient temperature and how/when the motor battery was charged. With very careful control of the temperature of the battery during charging and resting and timing between charging and flying, the difference in power can be mitigated to an extent. And by adjusting the amount of cooling air to the battery, the effects of ambient temperature can be mitigated to an extent. And by keeping an equal number of flights on all batteries, the difference between batteries can be minimized. Still, there had to be a better way. Ed felt the initial concept was simple enough, but it was about 1 year of developing hardware and software before the first prototype was flown.

    The default settings in Throttle Tech are based on my calculations (with some tweaks by Dean Pappas) from several hundred flight logs (actually probably closer to 1,000) over about 3 years. The majority of motor/prop/battery/plane setups (including Brenners Contra Drive) will substantially benefit from the default settings. Throttle Tech will work equally well on inrunners, outrunners, geared, direct drive, single prop, Contra prop, and Ed can supply Throttle Tech for a wide range of voltages. The proof is quite simple....with ESC logging or Eagletree logging onboard, complete a full power vertical upline before flying a sequence, and then another full power upline at the end of the sequence. Observe the substantial difference in watts and RPM. Add the Throttle Tech, and repeat......the differences (if any) will be greatly reduced. If you are routinely flying in temps less than 60F / 15C, or greater than 95F / 35C, or discharging further than 70%, you may want to adjust the default settings.

    I was flying the first prototype in early 2012, and used it at the 2012 US NATs. A 3rd generation prototype was in my plane at the 2013 NATs. Between several units in several planes with a variety of motors and ESCs, I have about 1,500 flights without any failures - discounting one instance where I knocked a plug loose - in which case, it is simply like flying without Throttle Tech. If you already have a servo extension lead between the ESC and RX, the weight gain from Throttle Tech is actually a little less than .5 ounces, as it replaces the extension.

    Throttle Tech will not turn a bad setup into a good one, but it makes the good ones even better, and makes them very close what electric is supposed to be. For pilots that have very good speed control, and excess power at the end of an average flight, the mah consumption will not change. For the guys that tend to be heavy handed on the throttle, saving as much as 10% is plausible, and in that case, operating temps of the lipo, esc, and motor might even drop a bit.
    Dave Lockhart
    Team JR Americas, Thunder Power, Castle Creations, F3A Unlimited, NeuMotors, Team Contra, Central Hobbies, Tech Aero

  15. #40

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    Seems like a pretty cool idea to me. I'll have to give Ed a call.
    Doug Cronkhite

  16. #41

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    The only other thing I would like to add is that I had to tweak my throttle curve a little on the upward side. And that tweak was very little for basically my horizontal cruise speed at half throttle. You'll have to fly with it and adjust for your preference. I had over 450 flights total on the device this year.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJRCFLYER2 View Post
    Both of the Deans connectors in that illustration are for connecting to the battery pack, which is comprised of 2 5S packs as is typical. One goes to one 5S pack, the 0V or negative side, and the other to the other 5S pack for the positive side. They get combined in in a harness to the ESC that simply connects the two 5S packs together with one of its wires. Bottom line, the LiPo Tap has the brown or black wire soldered to the black, 0V or negative wire from your ESC, and the red wire from the LiPo tap goes to the red wire on the ESC.
    Glad to see Throttle Tech released. Eddie and Dean have kept me in its loop (although I don't fly electric) over its long development. The effort it took to bring it to fruition should be worth every penny to you Electric drivers.

    It has been flown extensively in windy, choppy conditions also. Throttle management is no different under those conditions than it is flying a non-Throttle Tech set-up, you use more power. But you still wind up with more beans at the end of such a flight than you would flying the non-TT set-up.

    I've lost count on the number of times Ed would fly a full vertical after flying a full schedule, then landing and checking full throttle rpm. FT rpm would always be the same before and after a flight.

    Can it save your batteries if you attempt to over deplete them? As I recall, this has been discussed with Ed. I'm not sure how much value it would add since Edrivers have learned to fly more carefully than gas drivers like me....

    Kudos to the development team......
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

  18. #43

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    I fly IC and don't see a problem with it.

    To be honest even if it electrics were to run a governor function I'd still consider it "open loop" because the feedback isn't coming from airspeed or acceleration sensor. The servos we use are all "closed loop" to put the control surface where we command it but it's an open loop system in that there's no input from the airframe response fed into the loop.

    At the end of the day the pilot is still deciding real time how much thrust they want/need based on observation and judgment...

  19. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Lachowski View Post
    The only other thing I would like to add is that I had to tweak my throttle curve a little on the upward side. And that tweak was very little for basically my horizontal cruise speed at half throttle. You'll have to fly with it and adjust for your preference. I had over 450 flights total on the device this year.
    Joe makes an interesting point here ... what you want to do is to adjust your throttle curve so that you like it best, just before the end of the flight.
    Then, after you've added the Throttle-Tech, that's what it will feel like all flight long ... until the batteries ar so depleted that they can no longer support the selected full-stick voltage.

    later,
    Dean P.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJRCFLYER2 View Post
    Rune:

    Functionally, this isn't any different than the pressure regulator on a YS. All the internal mechanisms are different, but the end result is like running a well tuned YS in that the motor does what you ask it to throughout the flight. It's an open loop system. There isn't any feedback to it about the actual performance of the model or even the motor. It can sense one thing, which is the voltage of the motor's LiPo. And when you think about it, that's what a pressure regulator does in essence. Substitute fuel pressure for electrical pressure, AKA voltage. An oversimplification? Yes, but functionally, no real difference.
    Real Pilots would fly with 4 or 5 channel non computer radios to show who is the best pilot with the most perfectly rigged plane. Full Scale Aerobatic pilots don't have all the computer advantages. Next U guys will want to use gyros, programmed auto pilot and a GPS with auto land systems. Then it a contest who can program the auto pilot the best not who has the best flying skills.
    Remember ... Every one of these Things we fly Comes with a Number, When the R/C Gods call that Number, it's going in a Garbage Bag, No Sniveling Allowed.
    P-47 Thunderbolt Brotherhood #24 & #43

  21. #46

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    There's always one in every discussion thread.

  22. #47
    [QUOTE]Real Pilots would fly with 4 or 5 channel non computer radios to show who is the best pilot with the most perfectly rigged plane. Full Scale Aerobatic pilots don't have all the computer advantages. Next U guys will want to use gyros, programmed auto pilot and a GPS with auto land systems. Then it a contest who can program the auto pilot the best not who has the best flying skills. [QUOTE]
    i was really not try to make it a discussion like this , more just get some opinions about if this was some that was legal or not , if I understands correctly it get "feedback"from the battery and adjust the throtel signal up or down after what the voltage is at the battery at all time (until its to low), I'm not try to trow in more gasoline in the camfire so ok open loop or not but isnt this almost like a gyro if the wing tip drops it will adjust the ailron signal to get it level if you hit the throtel to hard so you get to much speed in the beginning off the flight it adjust it for you so you get the correct speed or throtel.
    I hope I manage to explain in english what my thoghts is as english is not my spoken language
    Rune Gjelsnes
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    rungjels(@)gmail.com
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  23. #48

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    I don't think this device can give you any significant advantage over another pilot who does not have one. You still have to move the stick to get the speed you want to fly at. Personally, I think using the braking feature of an ESC can give you more of an advantage over a pilot who does not use the braking feature of an ESC than what this device does for you. By the way, I do not use and refuse to use the braking feature of any ESC for that reason except occasionally on a landing.

  24. #49

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    Rune, this is nothing like an autopilot. Your example of wing leveling requires the ability to sense the actual angle of bank so that an error can be calculated and reacted to. That error could be from either direction plus or minus from the desired wings level position. That is an example of a closed loop system. The response has direction and rate of roll components to it.

    Throttle-Tech basically takes something off the top from the outset of the flight, and as the battery voltage drops, the amount that it takes off diminishes. Motor RPM is never known, airspeed is never known and so on. All that happens is that until the motor battery is so depleted that its no longer possible, applying full throttle always feels the same, as do all the points in between. That's it. It's like what you get from a reciprocating engine setup like a well tuned YS. How it happens in either setup is irrelevant. The result is the same. All it means is that you as the pilot can expect consistent throttle response throughout the flight.

    Another point of comparison is with respect to voltage regulators. Without a regulator, your servo response changes during a flight. It's more subtle than what is more easily observed with the change of motor response as its battery discharges, but the effect is there nonetheless. It certainly changes significantly over the course of several flights. What we now have with Throttle-Tech is a new technology to provide consistent feel for throttle response to the pilot, just as a voltage regulator does for aileron, rudder & elevator.
    Last edited by NJRCFLYER2; 12-21-2013 at 03:11 AM.
    Ed Alt
    Tech-Aero Designs LLC

  25. #50
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    If it's legal to be able to adjust the Mixture (Needle Valve) on a glow engine in flight too get consistent engine performance ... That's what I'd Equate the Throttle-Tech to.
    Remember ... Every one of these Things we fly Comes with a Number, When the R/C Gods call that Number, it's going in a Garbage Bag, No Sniveling Allowed.
    P-47 Thunderbolt Brotherhood #24 & #43


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