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Allure by Bryan Hebert

Old 09-01-2015, 04:08 AM
  #426  
Jason Arnold
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Originally Posted by serious power
Jason,
I wonder why you feel the need to scoop material from the gutter to construct a comment/reply.

While you are at it perhaps you could explain which end, of which horse, was talking when you were telling us all; That the guys flew the Allure, in the Prelim's of the World Championships, due to fear of a mid-air.

Brian
Hey Brian,

It was just a tongue in cheek comment and a common one at that so please lighten up....
People make assertions and assumptions which, if unchecked, could become gospel. There is no shortage of Internet experts out there as you would know.

Seriously, Bryan explains it all in his videos. Brett also gives commentary on the two models and their differences as does AC. They also touch on the differences between the glow and contra versions. It's all there, people just need to watch and listen which is not too difficult but you will need to watch more than one video. Even consider watching the videos more than once as you may pickup something else previously missed. Then sit back and ask which other F3A designers are doing this? No horse manure just good information from the right end of the horse...

Cheers,
Jason.
Old 09-01-2015, 04:35 AM
  #427  
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Hi Jason,
No need to worry - I'm still laughing. I should have attached a few smiley's - was in a hurry.

The guy/guys were just asking 'why the Allure for the WC Prelim's' !!
You told them, here, that it was due to a fear of a mid-air !
Was that really the case ??

Brian
Old 09-01-2015, 10:38 AM
  #428  
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I was a little surprised at Jason's comment about horses rear ends.. There were only a couple of small comments about the WC and selection of model that was used.. I will go back and watch the videos a second time and watch them more closely.. ;-)
Old 09-01-2015, 04:58 PM
  #429  
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Originally Posted by Hamish Galloway
I was a little surprised at Jason's comment about horses rear ends.. There were only a couple of small comments about the WC and selection of model that was used.. I will go back and watch the videos a second time and watch them more closely.. ;-)

From following the development of the Alferma and Allure, I was under the impression that the Alferma would be the better airplane for F and unknowns.

I wasn't surprised, (and expected), that Brett flew the Allure for P and Alferma for F.
Old 09-02-2015, 09:08 AM
  #430  
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Originally Posted by drac1
From following the development of the Alferma and Allure, I was under the impression that the Alferma would be the better airplane for F and unknowns.

I wasn't surprised, (and expected), that Brett flew the Allure for P and Alferma for F.
Head of nail, direct hit.
Old 09-05-2015, 07:45 AM
  #431  
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FWIW.....a couple somewhat random points....

I have never owned an F3A biplane. I have observed many, and from my observations, only been interested in flying a few. Most definitely having a bipe is a way to get attention...whether it flies better or not (attention is not always a good thing). I've yet to see a bipe I NEED to have. Of the bipes I've flown, I have not been compelled to buy one. When / if possible, I would like to have a flight on an Alferma.

At the 2015 US NATs, AC had his Allure and his Passion bipe. Chip had his Allure and his Finals Touch bipe. Both planned to use the Allure for the prelims and "save" the bipes for the finals (2015 US NATs had midair potential prior to the finals). Chip split the 2 rounds in the semis between the Allure and bipe, and several people commented to Chip that the Allure looked better. Chip liked the bipe better, and flew it in the finals and finished 3rd. AC stayed with the Allure and won. I was in 2nd with my Allure, winning the last unknown which was very knife edge intensive. Post contest, a number of the judges said what really stood out in the last unknown was the quality of my knife edge maneuvers....hmmmm......

CPLR and have both tried bipes....and both choose to fly monoplanes (or "1.5s"). Right now, there is only 1 Alferma....maybe Brett would fly the Alferma in the prelims if he had 2 Alfermas. My opinion is that for the overwhelming number of pilots, the differences between a top level monoplane and top level bipe are going to be pretty close to insignificant, especially when you consider just how few pilots ever fly unknowns in competition. Maybe most pilots fly what they like?
Old 09-06-2015, 02:48 PM
  #432  
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I really didn't expect to find this topic in this thread but since since Dave has given his opinion on the subject I will as well. Even though a good bit of Daves answer is accurate there are many things that I feel he left out when it came to my placing, plane choice, and some of the reasoning why. However before I go into that I want to commend CK Aero on the Allure and let everyone know it is the real deal. I had half a dozen partial flights and 2 complete flights through P since last years Nats on my Allure and when the contest started I felt like I had been flying it all year. It is everything Bryan has said and then some. No aileron dif. and no roll, or pitch coupling with rudder, that I could detect. It took the standard 2.5% down elev at idle and 2% right rudder to full throttle that I have used for 25 years. The rudder part Bryan says will come out with the correct thrust and I said why bother to change it this was to EZ to just use the radio.

The factory did a fantastic job on the color scheme I sent over and I could not of been happier with the quality, fit and finish. I did have to change the landing gear due to one delaminating but after last years loss of planes that was the one thing I had plenty of. It is true I flew the Allure in one round of the semi finals and that was the round I happened to win. However I think if I had flown the Allure first and the FT second due to the rotation the outcome would of been the same. That is not a neg. against either plane they are both by far the best flying planes I have ever owned and once again Bryan thanks for all the helkp and your hard work to make it happen. (With like 15 minutes to spare)

Now this is where Dave's opinion and mine are slightly different. Had the Unknowns had any of the difficult maneuvers in them I truely believe the Finals Touch would of been the weapon of choice. However since they did not, AC was wise to stick with his Allure because his bipe was not flying anywhere close to it.

The reason I can say that is AC and I were over practicing on site 4 together and I called some unknowns for him. While he was able to get through all of them it was not as clean as I think it would of needed to be IMO. But since the unknowns were basically looping maneuvers, with a couple rolls, and a snap, there was no doubt in my mind what plane he was going to fly. I considered Flying my Allure but after waiting for 3 years to get the FT to a contest I had to fly it and I am glad I did.

Also one other thing most know is Dave has a Contra in his and that makes any plane more sensitive in yaw which is the reason i think he feels like he does. After the event Dave let me get a flight on his plane and OMG was it sensitive on the rudder for me and I like a sensitive rudder. I think that Dave has always flown that way though and that is why he will never really like a biplane until he actually gets his own and sets it up how he likes to fly. Again just my opinion.

While yes it is true I finished 3rd, Dave forgot to mention that I won the first round with the FT while being 3rd up. Then upon finding out I failed noise by 3DB, upon my recheck I had to spend the entire time with my stuff impounded and dealing with all that. Of course I was 1st up in the unknown and until we went to the line I had never looked at the pattern or gone through it with my caller Joey Hayes. BTW I failed the noise retest and I lost the 1000. So I had one shot to dial down the atv which I already had at 60% to 40% and right back to the noise test I went. This time was the same as last and even though I wasn't told for sure I could tell by Jeff's look I failed it again. Anyway Joey was on it, and I felt good about the flight which btw, scored better then I could of hoped for. I think it was a mid 960, being first up, under those conditions, all I had to do to keep it was pass the noise which we finally did, or the contest would of been over for me. (It was the same engine, prop, pipe, header, fuel, glow plug, with the ATV back 3 times as far as I had to last year, except in the new plane and Matt Kimbros setup was exactly the same and he failed as well) Anyhow that wont happen again.

So as you can see had I passed noise I would of easily been second and who knows what could of been. Actually had I just been penalized per the rule book and lost my score for the first round, without the other pilots (not per the rule book) getting a bonus it I could of still been second. However the scores were not made public until after the contest was over and after the allotted time per the rule book, to file a protest, so it is what it is. I can assure you that no place in the rulebook says that any other competitor will be awarded more points due to a penalty incurred by another. Another words, AC should of had a 990 something, and Dave a 940 something instead of what they ended up with. Now some may argue the rule book is not clear on this, but I think it is very clear, and it surely doesn't mention adding points to anyones score. Aside from that I was very pleased with the way both planes performed and I felt better then I have in years as far as nerves and just being able to see the planes clearly no matter where it was in the box.

Also I need to add I feel it was a honest mistake and in no way am trying to say the contest management or anyone else tried to slip something in that shouldn't of been when it came to the scoring of my penalty. Either way AC won the contest and my hat is off to him he flew really well. It was obvious he put some time in this year as his flying has definitely improved. I use to have a friend once that would tell me "The more you practice, the luckier you get" He is gone now but I will never forget that saying.

Anyhow I am really excited about next years TT and have already started flying the new sequences. I cant wait until next month to go to a contest I have heard about for years and see all the guys I missed at the Nats this year. Thats right the Cajun Nats are a for sure thing, and along Michael Caglia and Dan Landis are coming in force. It is going to be a blast, so if your in the general area, you might not want to miss it.

C
Old 09-07-2015, 02:28 PM
  #433  
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Passport1,
Great reading in Your post.
Since You have so long experience of top level F3A flying,do You think the Allure is good plane for higher wind condition (about 9-10-11 meter per sec)? Is there any plane out there that can be said is known to fly very good in both calmer and rougher wind conditions? In my country it is mostly windy and my present Sebart MythoS Pro (and I) struggle in harder winds. What was Your deciding factors for choosing Allure for the NATS?
What negative behaviour, if any, have you discovered with Allure that You personally would see improved on the plane?

/Bo
Old 09-09-2015, 05:16 PM
  #434  
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The intent of my prior post was to point out that the top placing pilots at the US NATs had a variety of aircraft designs and configurations available. In particular, the Allure in 3 configurations (Glow, single prop electric, and Contra) finished in the top 3 spots after the semifinals. And after the finals, a single prop electric Allure and a Contra Allure were in the top spots, ahead of a single prop bipe. Both unknown sequences contained a knife edge loop, knife edge vertical 8, and knife edge cuban 8. The first unknown sequence had 3 snaps and the second unknown sequence had 5 snaps. I would agree that I have flown more difficult unknown sequences, but, I would not characterize the unknowns that were flown as lacking difficult manuevers, or lacking maneuvers that would challenge the performance of the plane. I think it simply goes back to pilots choosing to fly what they are most comfortable with, and what they like the best. There were clearly some setup differences in the top 3 planes, and by my estimate, it was nothing more than a reflection of the flying style the pilots chose to use. To my eye, all 3 planes (Allure electric single prop, Allure Contra, Finals Touch glow) were wholly capable of the schedules and unknowns. If asked, Bryan would tell you each configuration of the Allure would perform very similarly with the proper setup.

After flying my Allure, Chip pointed out that he found the rudder to be very sensitive....that is something I have heard about virtually all of my models going back to the late 1980s. It is the way I prefer to fly, and I find it more "balanced" to use similar amounts of rudder and elevator in maneuvers that require integration of looping / rolling elements. I flew Mike Caglia's Finals Touch (same design as Chip flew in the finals), and hands down without question, it is the best pattern biplane I have ever flown, but my preference is still for a monoplane.

A brief comment on the noise testing at the recent US NATs. From the 2015 CIAM Plenary Meeting, effective May 1 2015, 5.1.2 specifies sound testing procedures. For models that fail a noise test and fail a retest "its entire model processing has failed." It would seem this new rule was not fully understood (as 2 planes that failed the noise test were flown), but, I believe it is clear enough how the score of zero was determined.
Old 09-10-2015, 08:09 AM
  #435  
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Dave, & Chip,

Good posts, I judged the f3a finals at the USA Nats, so I had a front row seat for the whole show, and I certainly agree that everyone flew well with the setups that they brought to fly, regardless of the difficulty of the schedules.

However, looking forward rather than backward, what do you guys think about the suitability of monoplanes versus biplanes for the maneuvers in F17, and future unknowns? For instance, I've heard it said that the reverse knife edge top hat in F17 is giving a lot of today's designs trouble.

Have you guys tried this maneuver with either the Allure or the Final's touch?

Brenner ...
Old 09-10-2015, 08:23 AM
  #436  
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Hi Brenner,

I've been flying the P17 and F17 since the NATs. Zero problems with any of the maneuvers in either schedule. Initially, I was flying the Reverse Top Hat with KE corners on high rate rudder (used for stall turns and spins), but I've gone back to using my regular rudder rate - which is the one I use for normal flying and snaps. The hardest part for me has been managing the throttle through the bottom KE corner......the contra props can spool down very quickly if throttle is not added soon enough.
Old 09-10-2015, 08:49 AM
  #437  
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Hey Dave,

Overall, does the Contra help, or hurt, with the reverse knife edge top hat?

It's true that a Contra Drive will scrub of speed quickly if you let it, and speed is a good way to get knife edge authority in a downline knife edge corner, however, it should also give you more control of the downline speed going into the corner, preventing you from entering too fast.

On balance, it is a positive or a negative?

Brenner ...
Old 09-10-2015, 04:57 PM
  #438  
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Originally Posted by DaveL322
The intent of my prior post was to point out that the top placing pilots at the US NATs had a variety of aircraft designs and configurations available. In particular, the Allure in 3 configurations (Glow, single prop electric, and Contra) finished in the top 3 spots after the semifinals. And after the finals, a single prop electric Allure and a Contra Allure were in the top spots, ahead of a single prop bipe. Both unknown sequences contained a knife edge loop, knife edge vertical 8, and knife edge cuban 8. The first unknown sequence had 3 snaps and the second unknown sequence had 5 snaps. I would agree that I have flown more difficult unknown sequences, but, I would not characterize the unknowns that were flown as lacking difficult manuevers, or lacking maneuvers that would challenge the performance of the plane. I think it simply goes back to pilots choosing to fly what they are most comfortable with, and what they like the best. There were clearly some setup differences in the top 3 planes, and by my estimate, it was nothing more than a reflection of the flying style the pilots chose to use. To my eye, all 3 planes (Allure electric single prop, Allure Contra, Finals Touch glow) were wholly capable of the schedules and unknowns. If asked, Bryan would tell you each configuration of the Allure would perform very similarly with the proper setup.

After flying my Allure, Chip pointed out that he found the rudder to be very sensitive....that is something I have heard about virtually all of my models going back to the late 1980s. It is the way I prefer to fly, and I find it more "balanced" to use similar amounts of rudder and elevator in maneuvers that require integration of looping / rolling elements. I flew Mike Caglia's Finals Touch (same design as Chip flew in the finals), and hands down without question, it is the best pattern biplane I have ever flown, but my preference is still for a monoplane.

A brief comment on the noise testing at the recent US NATs. From the 2015 CIAM Plenary Meeting, effective May 1 2015, 5.1.2 specifies sound testing procedures. For models that fail a noise test and fail a retest "its entire model processing has failed." It would seem this new rule was not fully understood (as 2 planes that failed the noise test were flown), but, I believe it is clear enough how the score of zero was determined.
Dave there was no model processing at the 2015 NATS, therefore Chip nor my model failed processing. If the Event Director at the NATS chose to follow the 2015 CIAM Plenary Meeting, effective May 1 2015, 5.1.2 specifies sound testing procedures during the contest day of the Finals, at the time Chip's model failed noise and my model failed noise we should have been told the meter reading THIS DID NOT HAPPEN then the transmitters and models should have been impounded THIS HAPPENED, then Chip and myself should have been able to make any adjustments to the model that we deemed necessary under the supervision of an official to pass the noise test THIS DID NOT HAPPEN. We were told we could not adjust or change anything on our models so we both failed the re-test.

So it seems to me that weren't following to new rules but yet we checked noise once the day of the Finals (as long as you passed) and we checked weight after all 4 flights the day of the Finals, which doesn't make any sense. Still not sure which rules we were following. We should have processed all models entered in FAI before any flight was recorded PERIOD, then I would agree with you Dave but the rules weren't followed.

If we are going to follow the rules we need to follow all of them. Here are some reasons why, 2015 NATS competitor's model rolls on runway prior to take-off (helper released model) pilot did not like position of the model the helper then repositioned model NOTHING WAS DONE pilot should have recorded a zero. 2015 NATS Masters final day all the competitors checked noise, one competitor (I know of) failed noise END RESULT NO RE-TEST, SCORE RECORDED. 2015 NATS FAI 2 competitors models fail noise, fail noise re-test END RESULT ZEROS FOR FLIGHTS. The rules are there for a reason and there is no reason to pick and choose the rules we are going to follow.

Matt Kimbro
Old 09-10-2015, 07:59 PM
  #439  
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Matt,

I think we are in violent agreement. As this thread is about the Allure, I kept my comment on the noise issue brief - my intent was to point out where I believed the basis was for the zero flight score. I am quite certain the intent for FAI was to follow the 2015 procedure....and as you have noted....there were errors made. The process that happened was not consistent with 2013 or 2015 rules.
Old 09-10-2015, 08:36 PM
  #440  
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Originally Posted by Brenner
Hey Dave,

Overall, does the Contra help, or hurt, with the reverse knife edge top hat?

It's true that a Contra Drive will scrub of speed quickly if you let it, and speed is a good way to get knife edge authority in a downline knife edge corner, however, it should also give you more control of the downline speed going into the corner, preventing you from entering too fast.

On balance, it is a positive or a negative?

Brenner ...
Brenner,

For sure the Contra is a positive.

I'm not sure the Contra helps the KE Top Hat anymore than any other maneuver, per se. For me, when the Contra is in a well matched and trimmed airframe, there is an advantage on every maneuver - broad speed range, easy to control the speed, and the plane rolls, stalls, and snaps equally right or left, and does not need any offsets (thrust, rudder trim, etc) to compensate for torque and spiral airflow. That said, the most important thing is to have a well trimmed airframe that is well matched to its powerplant. The Allure does very well with a variety of powerplants with minimal setup changes. Based on pictures I've seen from the 2015 WC, a number of planes were "updated" with a Contra, and a number of them sprouted ventral fins - presumably, the planes were not designed with a Contra in mind, but when modified to better suit the Contra, a performance advantage was achieved (if it wasn't, logic follows they would go back to a single prop). The Allure flies well with a Contra because it designed with the Contra in mind.
Old 09-10-2015, 11:06 PM
  #441  
Jason Arnold
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Hey Dave,

You'll bring Bryan out of RCU retirement with those "spiral slipstream" comments..

Great to see comments from different perspectives on this thread. Interesting reading.

Cheers,
Jason.
Old 09-11-2015, 02:21 AM
  #442  
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That's not accurate for the masters testing. One masters pilot did fail the sound ck, but he was retested as soon as he landed, and barely passed, probably because of the batts being at lower voltage, thus a lower rpm. I know this because I was the one doing the sound checks for masters on wednesday.
Old 09-14-2015, 11:34 AM
  #443  
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I had my V4 Contra powered plane sound checked in the Master's final and I think It measured at 92db. I also think that several other V3 Contra Drives sound checked at 93 db or so.

Brenner ...
Old 09-16-2015, 05:03 PM
  #444  
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Originally Posted by Jason Arnold
Hey Guys,

On Friday afternoon builders kit #2 and #3 were received in Sydney. They look fantastic! Both are painted in the German Bruno scheme. One is the chin cowl version and the other is the standard EP nose.

Here are some photos for your viewing pleasure:



Cheers,
Jason.
Hey Jason, Maybe I am a little blind, but I did not see any pictures of the wings/kit or stab/kit. Are they going to be built up or foam? No information on CKAero as of last night.

Sheldon
Old 09-16-2015, 06:24 PM
  #445  
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Originally Posted by Smooth Pilot
Hey Jason, Maybe I am a little blind, but I did not see any pictures of the wings/kit or stab/kit. Are they going to be built up or foam? No information on CKAero as of last night.

Sheldon
Hey Sheldon,

The builders kits are just the fuse and all the accessories like UC, pants, wing tube and socket, stab tube and socket, stab adjusters etc. A set of CAD files will be supplied which includes templates for cutting foam cores along with all the dimensions to cut blanks and construct the wings and stabs. They also detail the required balsa and lite ply etc.

A built up structure for the wings and stabs will probably be available at a later date.

Cheers,
Jason.
Old 09-17-2015, 12:05 PM
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Thanks Jason.

Sheldon
Old 09-18-2015, 09:01 AM
  #447  
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We've posted some information from Bryan about the Allure Builders Kit in CK Aero's blog at http://www.ckaero.net/blog/2015/09/1...t-information/.

I'll get the order page updated with the different options as I can and before they are in stock.

Thanks.
Old 10-06-2015, 01:22 PM
  #448  
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Guys Just a quick note.


I will have some models available in December for sale. A few yellow based EP Allures, (very nice looking) as well as Builders kits. We are doing our best to keep up with the demand. So, If you want to get on the list, go to the website and send me a Email. I will have about 5 full kits and 5 builders kits available.

The signature series has been sold Out!



WINNER!!!!!
On another Note, Larry Diamond was the Winner of the WC Scheme Allure CKAero provided for the USA Team Raffle. Lucky Dog!

Bryan
Old 10-06-2015, 04:07 PM
  #449  
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Thanks for donating, Bryan!
Old 10-11-2015, 10:49 AM
  #450  
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Originally Posted by flyncajun
Guys Just a quick note.


I will have some models available in December for sale. A few yellow based EP Allures, (very nice looking) as well as Builders kits. We are doing our best to keep up with the demand. So, If you want to get on the list, go to the website and send me a Email. I will have about 5 full kits and 5 builders kits available.

The signature series has been sold Out!



WINNER!!!!!
On another Note, Larry Diamond was the Winner of the WC Scheme Allure CKAero provided for the USA Team Raffle. Lucky Dog!

Bryan
Yes, Lucky Dog for sure... Thank you for the awesome donation to the F3A Team Raffle. Congrats to Team USA !!!!! I have never won a raffle like this before and didn't expect to win this time. The plane looks great in pictures and I have been following the posts.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions and offer your support.

Larry Diamond

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