What Battery Pack for e-pattern
08-13-2005, 08:05 PM
#29
Senior Member
RE: What Battery Pack for e-pattern
Todd nice job on the high Nats placing.
Looks like electric pattern is getting a strong foothold and it's great to see the various contributors sharing their information.
MattK
Looks like electric pattern is getting a strong foothold and it's great to see the various contributors sharing their information.
MattK
ORIGINAL: toddblose
Sorry for getting my info here late, but here is what I ran at the Nats this year.
I ran the Hacker C50 13XL and the Master 90-O-Acro speed controller.
I also ran the motor on a Hyde soft mount with a nose ring
The batteries are Thunder power TP5300-5S4P with a APC 20 x 13 E prop.
The Charger is a Astro Flight D109 and I have 2 of them.
The 90 amp speed controller works very well, But you can also use the Master 77-O-Flight
controller with the same results. That is what Chip had in the Biplane and it works very well.
Hope this helps
Sorry for getting my info here late, but here is what I ran at the Nats this year.
I ran the Hacker C50 13XL and the Master 90-O-Acro speed controller.
I also ran the motor on a Hyde soft mount with a nose ring
The batteries are Thunder power TP5300-5S4P with a APC 20 x 13 E prop.
The Charger is a Astro Flight D109 and I have 2 of them.
The 90 amp speed controller works very well, But you can also use the Master 77-O-Flight
controller with the same results. That is what Chip had in the Biplane and it works very well.
Hope this helps
08-13-2005, 10:43 PM
#31
Senior Member
RE: What Battery Pack for e-pattern
FYI. I touched on the highlighted Genesis link icon on your note and got a truck doing what model trucks do best. Well, it flies sorta kinda. Take a look and you'll chuckle too.
I;m sure the Genesis reference is to Chip's new design. I haven't seen one fly yet but hear they do well.
Matt
I;m sure the Genesis reference is to Chip's new design. I haven't seen one fly yet but hear they do well.
Matt
ORIGINAL: toddblose
Thanks Matt,
I like the electric so much I sold my glow Genesis and have another electric one on the way.
Thanks Matt,
I like the electric so much I sold my glow Genesis and have another electric one on the way.
08-14-2005, 08:43 AM
#32
RE: What Battery Pack for e-pattern
Todd,
Did you ever get a chance to measure the amperage with your set up? I would like to compare your C50 13XL numbers (amps, prop size, rpm) to my C50 14XL set up.
What do you think of the new competition version Hacker motors?
Thanks,
Steve K
Did you ever get a chance to measure the amperage with your set up? I would like to compare your C50 13XL numbers (amps, prop size, rpm) to my C50 14XL set up.
What do you think of the new competition version Hacker motors?
Thanks,
Steve K
08-14-2005, 12:17 PM
#33
My Feedback: (10)
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Waco,
TX
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: What Battery Pack for e-pattern
Steve, I have not flown since the nats so I have not had a chance. I will be at North Dallas
so if you are there we can check it then. I have not seen the new Hacker motors yet
hope to have one soon.
Matt I don't know what's up with the Genesis link, but they do fly well
so if you are there we can check it then. I have not seen the new Hacker motors yet
hope to have one soon.
Matt I don't know what's up with the Genesis link, but they do fly well
08-17-2005, 10:46 AM
#34
My Feedback: (10)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Collierville,
TN
Posts: 1,289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: What Battery Pack for e-pattern
A couple questions about electric pattern.
1) How many cycles are you guys getting on your battery packs before they either "puff", or no longer hold a charge.
2) How do the different manufacturers handle "puffed" packs from a non-sponsored pilot?
1) How many cycles are you guys getting on your battery packs before they either "puff", or no longer hold a charge.
2) How do the different manufacturers handle "puffed" packs from a non-sponsored pilot?
08-18-2005, 08:09 PM
#35
Senior Member
RE: What Battery Pack for e-pattern
Excellent info Mike. It's becoming more obvious (reading the various threads by the several pioneers in this aspect of the hobby), that there are several alternative set-ups that work pretty well.
The bottom line for me is the care and feeding of the LiPo's is where it's at and I hope every one browsing this forum, takes a few minutes to study your material.
MattK
The bottom line for me is the care and feeding of the LiPo's is where it's at and I hope every one browsing this forum, takes a few minutes to study your material.
MattK
ORIGINAL: FLYERSG
My two Astro 109s will charge packs to within about .15 volts of each other. When both packs come off the chargers, I check the voltage and then connect them in parallel using a home made harness. With a .15 volt difference between the packs, the current flow from one pack to the other is not a problem. I then connect the paralleled packs to the Astro 109 which consistently charges to a higher voltage. The current pot on the charger is turned all the way down until mode 1 is about 10 seconds from being completed (mode 1 takes 3 minutes) and the pot is then turned up to around 4 amps. Upon completion of mode 1, the 109 will then jump through mode 2 to mode 3 and continue charging the packs. Since the packs are in parallel, they are also becoming balanced relative to each other. After about 10 minutes, the two packs are nearly identical in voltage (within a few thousandths of a volt as measured with a calibrated Fluke digital meter). While everyone would like to see 500 cycles from each and every LiPo pack, that is not likely to be the case with today's state of the art. One of my TP5S3P 6000 Lite packs lasted 12 flights before it "puffed". Luckily, TP examined the pack and replaced it for free. Since I'm not a sponsored flyer, the cost of LiPos is a serious consideration and a significant concern when LiPo failures occur. LiPos will degrade just sitting on the shelf. Their life span depends upon how hard they're pushed, how many charge/discharge cycles they've gone through, and how they're stored. If stored at full charge, they will degrade faster. Ideally, when not being used, they should be kept at around 3.7 volts/cell. When used, they should not be depleted beyond about 80% of their charge. If they are pushed to the limit of their capacity, they will degrade quickly. I switched to electric power about two years ago after flying glow engines for over 50 years. I'm not sorry to see vibration and oil covered models fall by the wayside; however, electric models have overhead. I check motor RPM about every 5 flights and use a watt meter to check current flow every 5 to 10 flights. I'm looking for abnormal readings which could indicate a cell going bad in the LiPo pack or the magnets in the motor becoming demagetized. A demagged motor will seem normal until you connect a watt meter at which point you'll see an increased current flow which could damage the LiPo pack and/or destroy the ESC. After each flight, the motor and LiPo pack temperature is checked. After each flight and before charging, the voltage of the packs is checked. The voltage is also checked after coming off the charger. When charging, the packs must absolutely not be left alone. If overcharged, they can ignite violently. In addition, a cell which goes bad within a pack can catch fire during the charge routine. If the cells are overdischarged, generally they will be ruined. So.....I guess the point I'm trying to make for those who have not made the jump to electric, is there is a learning curve associated with electric pattern and in reality, there's quite a bit of overhead associated with utilizing electric power in a safe and responsible way. For me, it has been a "shot in the arm" that has resulted in new enthusiasm for R/C aerobatics after having done it for many, many years. I would not go back to glow or gas.
Mike Moritko
My two Astro 109s will charge packs to within about .15 volts of each other. When both packs come off the chargers, I check the voltage and then connect them in parallel using a home made harness. With a .15 volt difference between the packs, the current flow from one pack to the other is not a problem. I then connect the paralleled packs to the Astro 109 which consistently charges to a higher voltage. The current pot on the charger is turned all the way down until mode 1 is about 10 seconds from being completed (mode 1 takes 3 minutes) and the pot is then turned up to around 4 amps. Upon completion of mode 1, the 109 will then jump through mode 2 to mode 3 and continue charging the packs. Since the packs are in parallel, they are also becoming balanced relative to each other. After about 10 minutes, the two packs are nearly identical in voltage (within a few thousandths of a volt as measured with a calibrated Fluke digital meter). While everyone would like to see 500 cycles from each and every LiPo pack, that is not likely to be the case with today's state of the art. One of my TP5S3P 6000 Lite packs lasted 12 flights before it "puffed". Luckily, TP examined the pack and replaced it for free. Since I'm not a sponsored flyer, the cost of LiPos is a serious consideration and a significant concern when LiPo failures occur. LiPos will degrade just sitting on the shelf. Their life span depends upon how hard they're pushed, how many charge/discharge cycles they've gone through, and how they're stored. If stored at full charge, they will degrade faster. Ideally, when not being used, they should be kept at around 3.7 volts/cell. When used, they should not be depleted beyond about 80% of their charge. If they are pushed to the limit of their capacity, they will degrade quickly. I switched to electric power about two years ago after flying glow engines for over 50 years. I'm not sorry to see vibration and oil covered models fall by the wayside; however, electric models have overhead. I check motor RPM about every 5 flights and use a watt meter to check current flow every 5 to 10 flights. I'm looking for abnormal readings which could indicate a cell going bad in the LiPo pack or the magnets in the motor becoming demagetized. A demagged motor will seem normal until you connect a watt meter at which point you'll see an increased current flow which could damage the LiPo pack and/or destroy the ESC. After each flight, the motor and LiPo pack temperature is checked. After each flight and before charging, the voltage of the packs is checked. The voltage is also checked after coming off the charger. When charging, the packs must absolutely not be left alone. If overcharged, they can ignite violently. In addition, a cell which goes bad within a pack can catch fire during the charge routine. If the cells are overdischarged, generally they will be ruined. So.....I guess the point I'm trying to make for those who have not made the jump to electric, is there is a learning curve associated with electric pattern and in reality, there's quite a bit of overhead associated with utilizing electric power in a safe and responsible way. For me, it has been a "shot in the arm" that has resulted in new enthusiasm for R/C aerobatics after having done it for many, many years. I would not go back to glow or gas.
Mike Moritko
09-01-2005, 04:51 PM
#36
Senior Member
RE: What Battery Pack for e-pattern
One manufacturers' disposal System for Puffed Battery packs
This was just a couple weeks ago at my home field in California.
I think I'm going to stick with a glow motor for a while.
This was just a couple weeks ago at my home field in California.
I think I'm going to stick with a glow motor for a while.
09-05-2005, 12:27 AM
#38
Senior Member
RE: What Battery Pack for e-pattern
Long post sorry for the rant. I’m pretty new to RCU but have been modeling for over 40 years. I’ve been lurking for a long time.
not really any info on the poor guy and his BBQ. Other that it was a Li-po fire.
I enjoy using these batteries for small models and foamies. The reality is I'm concerned the AMA is going to step into this problem and we won't like their response.
Who knows what is going to happen. Guys that are experts running electric models and have all the top equipment are having trouble with this high power stuff. I have heard of Speed controls shorting and burning up models, I have personally seen gearboxes lock up on the pattern setups and throw props. I have also seen the BBQ of a set of Batteries at a local pattern meet last year. This guy is very on top the technology and yet still had a problem.
I think it is very cool stuff, but the reality is it’s not ready for prime time. The top FAI pilots are using it but they have huge support from companies. They could be flying brand new batts and motors every single day and we won't know it.
Tony F. has been running it a long time and his experience has described lots of issues with Batteries, controllers and motors. Granted this can happen with a Big Block 4 stroke too, but the glow motor is not likely to burn up your car, house or model. Although not specifically saying it do the math on how many battery packs it takes to get 700 flights when you are only getting 60 flights on a set of packs. Then call it a drum of fuel for every battery pack. ($650-$700)
Battery technology is marching forward. I'm ready for it to be here. The question is will this increased power and performance come with better safety or are we going to be in the same boat we are today. Like everything in our lives the regulation body could step in and place demands for reforms or outlaw the technology to be covered under your AMA insurance. Look there are other models that tend to burn when they crash too. Oh guess what when you crash one of these models they can and do start the fire too! We all know how the Jet guys feel about the AMA limits on them.
I'm not a chicken little with the sky is falling. I really think you need to take great care of these batteries when using them. The high-powered setups are really tough to manage. You are talking about 30-40 cell battery packs. New balancing technology is great, but I'm not convinced this stuff is ready for me to try it.
I made an inquiry to my homeowners insurance last spring. I had heard of some home fires with lithium packs as we have seen here on this forum. My home owners (Allstate) says they do not cover events that are a result of me keeping hazardous materials in my home. Guess what they consider Hazardous, Fuels, Paints, Batteries, ect. If you have any of these items in BULK in your home my insurance company thinks I'm risking coverage of an accident involving the hazardous material. I knew about car batteries and such do to the acid involved. So I asked about lithium-ion Polymer batteries. The answer was lithium is a very volatile material, NO. Meaning if a fire was started by the Batts or a fire occurred and my model fuel and or batts was involved. By the way a single pattern setup is currently 40 cells (5300mah 10S4P) pack. I don't think I could argue that 40 cells is not Bulk...a single cell phone or maybe even 10 cell phones is only 10 cells. But this one pattern battery is 40cells.
Even a glow motor can kill you. Just think about keeping 3 cases of glow fuel in your garage. But the glow fuel doesn’t burst into flames when you are filling your fuel tank. The reality is these batteries and the high power systems we are using are really a bit extreme. We are talking about 60amps. The motors are running basically 3phase AC type power. 42volt system. Look at your breaker box on your house and see how many 60amp breakers you have (granted this is 110V not 42V? BUT Chances are you don't have any? My personal house has a single 40amp breaker on the Air conditioning unit. This is a special breaker too with a special trip circuitry. Most circuits in your home are 15amps. Think about it?
I'm not anti Electric I would love to have one of these Electric pattern models with the Hacker C50 in it and $8,000 to $10,000 worth of battery packs so I could get 700 flights too. The reality is I just don't see the glitz overcoming the financial costs, and the loss in flying time. The word is having the gearboxes worked on every 50 flights. Even with 4 YS motors constantly being in for repair the costs are not even close. We are literally talking Turbine Jet type numbers for cost and even the risks here as well.
The AMA is a company now and their self appointed place is to regulate us in order to minimize their risks as an insurance company. Think about an accident involving an AMA club, an AMA member, and a li-po crash and fire that bring in some person from the real world. In today’s world of lawsuits over hot coffee at the golden arches and so on. The judge and or jury will look at the facts and say you mean two years ago you guys knew this could happen? You mean there is an Internet site RCU that documents these problems and fires. Guess who would win that lawsuit for big bucks. This is a regulation waiting to happen in my opinion. The club would have a really difficult time convincing the landowner, city, county or who ever holds the lease on the field that it’s a safe and family oriented activity. What about in the Midwest where I see pictures of you guys flying over farmers’ crops? Are you ready to buy an entire field of already popped corn?
Once they find out that we knew about the dangers of these things and action was not taken. Guess what?
I admire guys at the top working out the bugs on this stuff. But you don't see them out here promoting it do you? It has been 2 years since Jason first showed it was possible, and he is not out here beating the drum. Even those that are running it are not flooding this forum with the problems. The reality is they are quiet when they have trouble. No sense rocking the boat. Most people use the if you don't have something nice to say then don't say it. Some guys have leaked or led us to the fact they have had some problems. I like the note from from one guy that says who are you that is getting 200 cycles on a battery pack? They understand and know the risks. They also know about how many batts-speed controls, and motor demags they have experienced and toasted. Some even know about the flames coming from their new composite Fuselage. From what I see Tony F is using this technology and from my experience in the old days Tony was always very diligent with his models. If he is not getting 60 flights on a battery pack It is not ready. And he has not really had a fire that we know of?
Sorry for the rant.
AAM
not really any info on the poor guy and his BBQ. Other that it was a Li-po fire.
I enjoy using these batteries for small models and foamies. The reality is I'm concerned the AMA is going to step into this problem and we won't like their response.
Who knows what is going to happen. Guys that are experts running electric models and have all the top equipment are having trouble with this high power stuff. I have heard of Speed controls shorting and burning up models, I have personally seen gearboxes lock up on the pattern setups and throw props. I have also seen the BBQ of a set of Batteries at a local pattern meet last year. This guy is very on top the technology and yet still had a problem.
I think it is very cool stuff, but the reality is it’s not ready for prime time. The top FAI pilots are using it but they have huge support from companies. They could be flying brand new batts and motors every single day and we won't know it.
Tony F. has been running it a long time and his experience has described lots of issues with Batteries, controllers and motors. Granted this can happen with a Big Block 4 stroke too, but the glow motor is not likely to burn up your car, house or model. Although not specifically saying it do the math on how many battery packs it takes to get 700 flights when you are only getting 60 flights on a set of packs. Then call it a drum of fuel for every battery pack. ($650-$700)
Battery technology is marching forward. I'm ready for it to be here. The question is will this increased power and performance come with better safety or are we going to be in the same boat we are today. Like everything in our lives the regulation body could step in and place demands for reforms or outlaw the technology to be covered under your AMA insurance. Look there are other models that tend to burn when they crash too. Oh guess what when you crash one of these models they can and do start the fire too! We all know how the Jet guys feel about the AMA limits on them.
I'm not a chicken little with the sky is falling. I really think you need to take great care of these batteries when using them. The high-powered setups are really tough to manage. You are talking about 30-40 cell battery packs. New balancing technology is great, but I'm not convinced this stuff is ready for me to try it.
I made an inquiry to my homeowners insurance last spring. I had heard of some home fires with lithium packs as we have seen here on this forum. My home owners (Allstate) says they do not cover events that are a result of me keeping hazardous materials in my home. Guess what they consider Hazardous, Fuels, Paints, Batteries, ect. If you have any of these items in BULK in your home my insurance company thinks I'm risking coverage of an accident involving the hazardous material. I knew about car batteries and such do to the acid involved. So I asked about lithium-ion Polymer batteries. The answer was lithium is a very volatile material, NO. Meaning if a fire was started by the Batts or a fire occurred and my model fuel and or batts was involved. By the way a single pattern setup is currently 40 cells (5300mah 10S4P) pack. I don't think I could argue that 40 cells is not Bulk...a single cell phone or maybe even 10 cell phones is only 10 cells. But this one pattern battery is 40cells.
Even a glow motor can kill you. Just think about keeping 3 cases of glow fuel in your garage. But the glow fuel doesn’t burst into flames when you are filling your fuel tank. The reality is these batteries and the high power systems we are using are really a bit extreme. We are talking about 60amps. The motors are running basically 3phase AC type power. 42volt system. Look at your breaker box on your house and see how many 60amp breakers you have (granted this is 110V not 42V? BUT Chances are you don't have any? My personal house has a single 40amp breaker on the Air conditioning unit. This is a special breaker too with a special trip circuitry. Most circuits in your home are 15amps. Think about it?
I'm not anti Electric I would love to have one of these Electric pattern models with the Hacker C50 in it and $8,000 to $10,000 worth of battery packs so I could get 700 flights too. The reality is I just don't see the glitz overcoming the financial costs, and the loss in flying time. The word is having the gearboxes worked on every 50 flights. Even with 4 YS motors constantly being in for repair the costs are not even close. We are literally talking Turbine Jet type numbers for cost and even the risks here as well.
The AMA is a company now and their self appointed place is to regulate us in order to minimize their risks as an insurance company. Think about an accident involving an AMA club, an AMA member, and a li-po crash and fire that bring in some person from the real world. In today’s world of lawsuits over hot coffee at the golden arches and so on. The judge and or jury will look at the facts and say you mean two years ago you guys knew this could happen? You mean there is an Internet site RCU that documents these problems and fires. Guess who would win that lawsuit for big bucks. This is a regulation waiting to happen in my opinion. The club would have a really difficult time convincing the landowner, city, county or who ever holds the lease on the field that it’s a safe and family oriented activity. What about in the Midwest where I see pictures of you guys flying over farmers’ crops? Are you ready to buy an entire field of already popped corn?
Once they find out that we knew about the dangers of these things and action was not taken. Guess what?
I admire guys at the top working out the bugs on this stuff. But you don't see them out here promoting it do you? It has been 2 years since Jason first showed it was possible, and he is not out here beating the drum. Even those that are running it are not flooding this forum with the problems. The reality is they are quiet when they have trouble. No sense rocking the boat. Most people use the if you don't have something nice to say then don't say it. Some guys have leaked or led us to the fact they have had some problems. I like the note from from one guy that says who are you that is getting 200 cycles on a battery pack? They understand and know the risks. They also know about how many batts-speed controls, and motor demags they have experienced and toasted. Some even know about the flames coming from their new composite Fuselage. From what I see Tony F is using this technology and from my experience in the old days Tony was always very diligent with his models. If he is not getting 60 flights on a battery pack It is not ready. And he has not really had a fire that we know of?
Sorry for the rant.
AAM
09-05-2005, 04:31 PM
#40
My Feedback: (10)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Collierville,
TN
Posts: 1,289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: What Battery Pack for e-pattern
AAM,
I think you've hit the nail on the head. That's why it is so quiet here in the electric forum. Once you take a cursory look at the numbers, it just doesn't make sense for the Great Unwashed Masses now.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. That's why it is so quiet here in the electric forum. Once you take a cursory look at the numbers, it just doesn't make sense for the Great Unwashed Masses now.
09-09-2005, 01:44 AM
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Lugano, SWITZERLAND
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: What Battery Pack for e-pattern
ORIGINAL: klhoard
(...) it just doesn't make sense for the Great Unwashed Masses now.
(...) it just doesn't make sense for the Great Unwashed Masses now.
One of the most common problem is that we run packs in parallel, which is quite unusual. Parallel pack may show this "unbalancing syndrome", due (among other reasons) to different heat levels in the pack. Unbalancing is one of the key problems we have to keep an eye on. Manufacturers like [link=http://www.orbitronic.de]Orbit Electronic[/link] are already working on "intelligent" solutions which will help to prevent manipulation errors, thus eliminating one of the problems from this equation. New cells are going to come out with better C rating: 15C is standard today, with 20C at the door. These cells will come as xS1P-Packs (= only series cells), no need to balance anything there, other problem solved. The last problem will be how long one of this packs can take that abuse. Cells, no matter if NiMHs, NiCds or Lipos, begin aging when shipped out of the factory; with both NiCds and NiMHs usage is largely distributed and a lot of data is available; with Lipos this will be the case in a couple of years, so we don't know for sure how long these packs will last. I am confident that, when these packs are used inside manufacturer's specification (and preferably below that), they will last at least 200 cycles. Newer battery will take higher currents with less problems, so this is also a matter of time, as far as I'm concerned.
I won't go as far as to write that "large" electrics like F3A, for instance, is safe, or easy. It is if you know specifically what you are doing, and how. It is VERY expensive and nowhere near the costs for a good 140 powered glow engine. I keep track after every flight of temperatures, voltage and signs of cells going bad (ballooning), and record every recharge (volts, loaded mAh) on an excel sheet. I am confident that this is important for safety. I prepared a very short check-list like pilots have and read it through before disconnecting the battery from my airplane, this also helps preventing mismanipulation.
I have about 10 cycles on eache one of my 10S3P Kokam 2000 mAh (6000 mAh) packs, all is well until now. I use an Orbit Microlader 6.31 charger with Orbit balancers and I'm upgrading to the newer balancers which "talk" back to the charger. This is another step in the right directon, if you ask me - it might even be possible to select a wrong cell # on the charger, and nothing bad would happen.
Regards,
-Fabrizio
09-09-2005, 07:12 AM
#42
RE: What Battery Pack for e-pattern
AAM
Just want to pick out some of your post and relate my experience, I have around 350 flights on e-power this year, have not flown glow all season. Just back from the WC in France, 17th in prelims, 20th after the semi's :-)
I cant tell you up front that I paid 50% of the cost of my batteries, I dont run new ones every flight 
VERY FEW guys are getting them for free. I think you will find that most are forking out some amount of money for their stuff. Keep in mind that I was 100% sponsored for fuel so it is a huge increase in cost for me to fly electric.....
60 flights a pack is last years news, the new Prolites we are using have only shown a rough 1.5-3% loss in capacity for 60 cycles (which is where I am at now)....I know from speaking to guys at the Worlds that a few are over 100 cycles and were using them in that competition so they must still be putting out the power. How long will they go? I dont know but I am expecting to see 150 cycles out of these packs at least. Obviously if you abuse them they are going to fry on you, so its still the end user who dictates how well the gear will last.
Yes, but I have witnessed 3 pattern models with lipos crash, none started fire. Two of them the batteries were not even harmed, the third the packs looked scary but no fire.
Why do people think Hacker is the only choice? Plettenberg outrunners do the job, with no gearbox, less noise, and no hassles. I have not touched a motor this season I wont touch a motor with a gearbox with a 10 foot pole
Its realistic to get 100 flights on the TP 5300 packs, so thats 7, 10s packs @ $640 each or only $4480 Ya thats a lot but I dont know of many guys putting 700 flights on their planes in a short period of time.
I did the numbers back in the spring on this, break even point is roughly 200-220 cycles when compared to running a 140/160DZ on 30% nitro. We are halfway or better there already.
I have not fried a motor, or an ESC (Schulze) in over 300 flights :-) I wont be going back to glow ever regardless of the cost of electric
There is also the intangible benefits of your airframe and radio gear virtually never wearing out...no reason you could not get 5000 flights on an airframe
Is it simple, no....it requires diligence and a level of care that you dont have with glow. You need some good voltmeters, chargers etc to make sure things are on the level all the time as one mistake is all it takes.....but its not as negative as you seem to believe it is. With a cautious approach and common sense anyone should be able to make this work without burning down their house or destroying many dollars worth of equipment.
Just want to pick out some of your post and relate my experience, I have around 350 flights on e-power this year, have not flown glow all season. Just back from the WC in France, 17th in prelims, 20th after the semi's :-)
The top FAI pilots are using it but they have huge support from companies. They could be flying brand new batts and motors every single day and we won't know it.
VERY FEW guys are getting them for free. I think you will find that most are forking out some amount of money for their stuff. Keep in mind that I was 100% sponsored for fuel so it is a huge increase in cost for me to fly electric.....
Although not specifically saying it do the math on how many battery packs it takes to get 700 flights when you are only getting 60 flights on a set of packs
Oh guess what when you crash one of these models they can and do start the fire too!
The word is having the gearboxes worked on every 50 flights
I wont touch a motor with a gearbox with a 10 foot pole
$8,000 to $10,000 worth of battery packs so I could get 700 flights
Ya thats a lot but I dont know of many guys putting 700 flights on their planes in a short period of time.I did the numbers back in the spring on this, break even point is roughly 200-220 cycles when compared to running a 140/160DZ on 30% nitro. We are halfway or better there already.
I have not fried a motor, or an ESC (Schulze) in over 300 flights :-) I wont be going back to glow ever regardless of the cost of electric
There is also the intangible benefits of your airframe and radio gear virtually never wearing out...no reason you could not get 5000 flights on an airframe
Is it simple, no....it requires diligence and a level of care that you dont have with glow. You need some good voltmeters, chargers etc to make sure things are on the level all the time as one mistake is all it takes.....but its not as negative as you seem to believe it is. With a cautious approach and common sense anyone should be able to make this work without burning down their house or destroying many dollars worth of equipment.
09-10-2005, 01:55 AM
#43
Senior Member
RE: What Battery Pack for e-pattern
Ok I'll trust you.
But I have been hearing this for the last year. Oh the new batts are the thing. Every time the new cells come out the gen 2's the gen 2 lites, the gen 3's what ever the names for them are...blue stripe, yellow stripe, brown stripe...The word is They are the solution. But yet they have not proven out.
We are on how many generations of THP batts now. Gen 1, gen2, gen 2.5, gen 2lite, gen 2 pro lite an All this in about 18 months of running them. Each time the batts change we go obsolete on the previous stuff. How much demand is there for the original 5s4p 8000mah packs that Tony F started flying on?
You say that you are at 60 flights now and no problems. Good! I'm glad to hear it. But you still haven't got 1/2 way to a break-even point yet.
Anybody can order a full drum of 25% nitro for a YS motor for about $700 delivered. Using it I have a 20oz tank. 7 flights per gallon for 54 gallons. You need 350-400 flights to break even on fuel. This is all without a 1 hr break in between flights. Oh you guys are running 3-5+ or more packs. I saw in another post Tony F has 6 sets of packs. This alone is $3600 in batteries. Disregarding chargers and generators to run them. Let's stick that under the repair cost for my YS motor. Oh by the way. I think the YS or OS is much cheaper to repair over several years than the multiple chargers needed at $120-300 each and the $500 generator.
When we see the results we will believe it.
But I have been hearing this for the last year. Oh the new batts are the thing. Every time the new cells come out the gen 2's the gen 2 lites, the gen 3's what ever the names for them are...blue stripe, yellow stripe, brown stripe...The word is They are the solution. But yet they have not proven out.
We are on how many generations of THP batts now. Gen 1, gen2, gen 2.5, gen 2lite, gen 2 pro lite an All this in about 18 months of running them. Each time the batts change we go obsolete on the previous stuff. How much demand is there for the original 5s4p 8000mah packs that Tony F started flying on?
You say that you are at 60 flights now and no problems. Good! I'm glad to hear it. But you still haven't got 1/2 way to a break-even point yet.
Anybody can order a full drum of 25% nitro for a YS motor for about $700 delivered. Using it I have a 20oz tank. 7 flights per gallon for 54 gallons. You need 350-400 flights to break even on fuel. This is all without a 1 hr break in between flights. Oh you guys are running 3-5+ or more packs. I saw in another post Tony F has 6 sets of packs. This alone is $3600 in batteries. Disregarding chargers and generators to run them. Let's stick that under the repair cost for my YS motor. Oh by the way. I think the YS or OS is much cheaper to repair over several years than the multiple chargers needed at $120-300 each and the $500 generator.
When we see the results we will believe it.
09-10-2005, 08:04 AM
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Saskatoon,
SK, CANADA
Posts: 722
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: What Battery Pack for e-pattern
Speaking of "What Battery Pack for e-pattern," my used e-pattern battery packs are for sale. PM me for details.
-Adam Glatt
-Adam Glatt
09-11-2005, 01:44 AM
#46
My Feedback: (11)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Tracy,
CA
Posts: 2,080
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: What Battery Pack for e-pattern
I saw this picture in the back of Scott Covey's van today at the hollister contest. It sure does seem to me like glow fuel is cheaper than that suburban!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm just jealous of you e guys. I wish I could afford to buy it all. I'll just stick with my 4 blade OS 140 for now. I can't afford another vehicle.....
Krishlan
I'm just jealous of you e guys. I wish I could afford to buy it all. I'll just stick with my 4 blade OS 140 for now. I can't afford another vehicle.....
Krishlan
09-11-2005, 03:47 PM
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Lugano, SWITZERLAND
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: What Battery Pack for e-pattern
ORIGINAL: patternflyer1
I saw this picture in the back of Scott Covey's van today at the hollister contest. It sure does seem to me like glow fuel is cheaper than that suburban!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm just jealous of you e guys. I wish I could afford to buy it all. I'll just stick with my 4 blade OS 140 for now. I can't afford another vehicle.....
Krishlan
I saw this picture in the back of Scott Covey's van today at the hollister contest. It sure does seem to me like glow fuel is cheaper than that suburban!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm just jealous of you e guys. I wish I could afford to buy it all. I'll just stick with my 4 blade OS 140 for now. I can't afford another vehicle.....
Krishlan
Regards,
-Fabrizio
09-12-2005, 06:23 AM
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Lugano, SWITZERLAND
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: What Battery Pack for e-pattern
ORIGINAL: AAM
Oh you guys are running 3-5+ or more packs.
Oh you guys are running 3-5+ or more packs.
Two is minimum, four is ok, six or more is definitely "upper-class", but not needed for most of us.
@Chad : good job at the WC - hope you had a lot of fun!
Regards,
-Fabrizio
09-12-2005, 10:21 AM
#49
My Feedback: (11)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Tracy,
CA
Posts: 2,080
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: What Battery Pack for e-pattern
Hi Fabrizio,
I hope I didn't come off sounding wrong. I love the new electrics. I wish I could afford the setups.
I do have to say, the sound takes some getting used to. But for those of us that have gone the 2 stroke route that has also taken some getting used to. I am planning on setting up an electric but its going to take a while. I'd like to get a setup going by the nats, but that isn't gonna happen. I think the batteries will be the last thing I buy. And hopefully by that point they may have moved on to generation 10 and I'll buy someones' used 9's. lol.
Take care and keep em safe...
Kris
I hope I didn't come off sounding wrong. I love the new electrics. I wish I could afford the setups.
I do have to say, the sound takes some getting used to. But for those of us that have gone the 2 stroke route that has also taken some getting used to. I am planning on setting up an electric but its going to take a while. I'd like to get a setup going by the nats, but that isn't gonna happen. I think the batteries will be the last thing I buy. And hopefully by that point they may have moved on to generation 10 and I'll buy someones' used 9's. lol.
Take care and keep em safe...
Kris
09-13-2005, 06:37 AM
#50
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Lugano, SWITZERLAND
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: What Battery Pack for e-pattern
Hi Kris,
don't worry I did get the joke, so nothing wrong with it
. Newer 10S1P cells are coming out and will get some next month to try out (not for free, I'm no sponsored pilot); it's a Polyquest 3700XP 15/25C pack. This means I will sell my older Lipos for someone like you to try out. This is how I can keep the costs low, although initial investment is huge compared to my glow setup.
Regards,
-Fabrizio
don't worry I did get the joke, so nothing wrong with it
. Newer 10S1P cells are coming out and will get some next month to try out (not for free, I'm no sponsored pilot); it's a Polyquest 3700XP 15/25C pack. This means I will sell my older Lipos for someone like you to try out. This is how I can keep the costs low, although initial investment is huge compared to my glow setup.Regards,
-Fabrizio