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Sebart Wind 110

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Old 12-25-2009, 10:20 AM
  #551
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110

Huison ... you fly mine on Sunday ok!!!
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Old 12-25-2009, 11:28 AM
  #552
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ORIGINAL: tIANci

Huison ... you fly mine on Sunday ok!!!
Y啊, brother . will fly yours.... and see how the plane fly , mine need 15g at the wing tip to balance the plane ... once u get her trim out , it will fly well ... !

Charging your rhino now ....
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Old 12-25-2009, 12:51 PM
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110

Chris and Larry -
Great thoughts. I will stick with the Scorpion. The whole reason I'm switching to electric is because I went against the grain in my first year and tried a pumped OS120, then a YS, and had nothing but troubles.

As for the gear, if anyone wants a taller set of gear Northeast Aerodynamics has a set for the Aquila that is a direct fit, with the exception of being 1.5 inches taller. I didn't realize how low the plane sat when I ordered mine; not sure if I'll get any extra height. Going to experiment with a 17x12 though, might be ok...

I am excited to get back to Vermont after the holidays and start working on my plane!!

Merry Christmas everyone.
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Old 12-25-2009, 12:53 PM
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110

Hello guys,

I have been taking a look at the Wind 110 as my first true pattern plane and I was wondering if the plane could be used with an AXI 5320/28 which I already own. I was going to use it ona Venus II which I am currently recovering (just to be different), but for some reason I have lost interest in the Venus. Any advice?

Thank you,

Teo
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Old 12-25-2009, 01:02 PM
  #555
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110


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ORIGINAL: gaRCfield

So I checked out the calc listed above - it's actually the same as on Neu's site. I wanted to look at motors already being used on this plane, so I compared the Neu 1912/2.5Y to the Scorpion 4025-16, both on 8S - the numbers are really close!! The motors are nearly identical in size, weight, and kV. A 17x10 on the Scorpion and a 17x12 on the Neu posts very similar results, with the Neu giving slightly more thrust, a little more speed, and less overall power/efficiency. Or you can put an 18x10 on the Neu and have slightly less thrust, speed, and power, again a little less efficient.

So, looks like the New and the Scorpion are really similar, with the Scorpion just favoring in efficiency and power and the Neu favoring a larger prop. One would think that this would translate to the larger 10S motors similarly, so maybe a 19x10 on the Neu and an 18x10 on the Scorpion. So, an extra $100 for an extra inch on the prop?? Probably not here.

I've heard inrunners and outrunners compared similarly to 2 and 4 stroke wet fuel engines. I think I remember hearing that the inrunners were more like the 4S, which is what I saw with the calculator. So, maybe a little stronger pullout and better throttle response from the Neu?
Well, I was looking to have in one same calc program both types of very similar motors, and therefore identical rest of the setup, especially type of bat as it can significantly alter the result.Will an inrunner have a better response I honestly don't know as the only inrunner I have is on a 2WD buggy from Novak.I can bet that the guys at CC are suggesting to you the F3A motor because they don't know the answer about 1915 or 1917.On RCG I have put a question directly to Steve in the section Vendors, Neu motors. Lets hope he gives the answer.
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Old 12-25-2009, 01:03 PM
  #556
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110


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ORIGINAL: viva_peru

Hello guys,

I have been taking a look at the Wind 110 as my first true pattern plane and I was wondering if the plane could be used with an AXI 5320/28 which I already own. I was going to use it ona Venus II which I am currently recovering (just to be different), but for some reason I have lost interest in the Venus. Any advice?

Thank you,

Teo
It will need a lot of work. The motor mounting holes are already built into the front of the plane; they are for motors with a 25mm diameter mounting pattern (25mm between holes) - the Axi is a 30mm mounting pattern. Also the motor has a larger diameter 'can' so you will have to cut the front of the plane to get it to fit. Not saying it can't be done, but it will take work.

I just upgraded to this plane from a Venus. I haven't flown it yet but the plane itself is in another class.
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Old 12-25-2009, 01:14 PM
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110

Joe,

Thanks for the reply. That is exactly what I needed to know. The Hacker is not horribly expensive, so I could always buy the motor to go with the plane. I will have to think about it, my other other is the Focus Sport which is considerably cheaper and it would allow me to use what I already have.

Thank you once again and Merry Christmas,

Teo

PS. Had to correct the spelling on my name....
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Old 12-25-2009, 02:39 PM
  #558
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110

Golden...thank you for reply...golden,i go with hobbywing 120hv-pro,i already have 1 on order.And i think it can use to 2m pattern plane also,but hobbywing little bit overweight than CC..but have a big ampere...
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Old 12-25-2009, 06:34 PM
  #559
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110


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ORIGINAL: viva_peru

Joe,

Thanks for the reply. That is exactly what I needed to know. The Hacker is not horribly expensive, so I could always buy the motor to go with the plane. I will have to think about it, my other other is the Focus Sport which is considerably cheaper and it would allow me to use what I already have.

Thank you once again and Merry Christmas,

Tei
The 4025 scorpion is comparable to the hacker and $60 cheaper. The sebart us bigger than the focus and build quality appears to be superior. I have not flown the focus but would not hesitate to get the wind. I'm sure you will enjoy either one.
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Old 12-25-2009, 08:04 PM
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110

Joe,

Thank you for the suggestions. I ran some of the numbers on the Scorpion 4025/16 and I was wondering what currents you would expect with a 8S setup. With a 16x12 prop, the currents would appear to be in the 75 amp range. Is this correct?

I had considered that motor for the Venus II which I have, but the motor appeared to a little small and that was why I ended up buying the AXI 5320/28. I know that the Scorpions are good motors, but it seems to me that in this application the motors is being pushed a little hard. On the other hand, the 4035 seems about perfect for this plane, specially if it can be fitted without too much fuss.

I have been looking at the Focus Sport primarily because it is less expensive and since I am still learning, there is always the possibility that the plane will meet an early demise. That particular plane also comes with wing adjusters which experience with one of my models has shown that being able to adjust the wing incidence can be a very useful trimming tool.

However, having said that, SebArt planes have a reputation for being very well made and it seems that the Wind 110 is the closest thing you can have to a full 2M plane without braking the bank. Also, for its size, it is quite light and my experience also shows that lighter is better. In contrast, the Focus Sport would probably weigh about the same but in a smaller package. All in all, I am just trying to evaluate different options in a rational manner.

Thanks,

Teo
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Old 12-26-2009, 12:40 AM
  #561
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110

Quote:
ORIGINAL: viva_peru
Joe,
Thank you for the suggestions. I ran some of the numbers on the Scorpion 4025/16 and I was wondering what currents you would expect with a 8S setup. With a 16x12 prop, the currents would appear to be in the 75 amp range. Is this correct?

I had considered that motor for the Venus II which I have, but the motor appeared to a little small and that was why I ended up buying the AXI 5320/28. I know that the Scorpions are good motors, but it seems to me that in this application the motors is being pushed a little hard. On the other hand, the 4035 seems about perfect for this plane, specially if it can be fitted without too much fuss.

I have been looking at the Focus Sport primarily because it is less expensive and since I am still learning, there is always the possibility that the plane will meet an early demise. That particular plane also comes with wing adjusters which experience with one of my models has shown that being able to adjust the wing incidence can be a very useful trimming tool.

However, having said that, SebArt planes have a reputation for being very well made and it seems that the Wind 110 is the closest thing you can have to a full 2M plane without braking the bank. Also, for its size, it is quite light and my experience also shows that lighter is better. In contrast, the Focus Sport would probably weigh about the same but in a smaller package. All in all, I am just trying to evaluate different options in a rational manner.

Thanks,
Teo
Scorpion 4025 is rated at 75amps and people are saying it's plenty of power. I just mentioned that motor because you were talking about the recommended Hacker, and this is the Scorpion in the same volt/power category. I'm going with the 4035, as have a few other guys, and using 10S batteries. The 4035 is an easy fit.

In contrasts to the wing adjusters on the Focus, the Wind has no opportunity for adjusting incidence, and it is actually setup to require a bit of up elevator trim to fly level. Other than that (which is not technically a design flaw, just a different style) the plane is very well built - it is light but yet there is plenty of balsa sheeting in the fuse; very nice.

The Focus is a scaled down model of a 2M airplane - it should fly really nice as well.

Nothing in this world is perfect; there are people complaining about the Focus build quality in it's thread in the pattern forum, and people are not happy with the down line speed of the Wind in this forum.

I had my Venus at a contest over the summer and there was a Focus Sport there - I thought the plane looked pretty small. In contrast, the fuse of the Wind is a touch bigger than the Venus. I don't think the difference either way is enough to make a decision, just commenting on what I saw.

I think the Wind will be a much nicer build than the Focus, based on the instructions, the related threads, the Focus build thread, and what people have been reporting. The Wind is a very nice airplane

If you really value a lightweight airplane, the Scorpion 4025 will have good power and save 4oz of weight in the nose, and keep you at 8S. There are only a very few people who say the plane needs any more power than the 8S setup (and only in windier conditions flying advanced schedules); most seem to be more than content with it. You could run 8S 4000mah packs and have a very light airplane. I am more interested in a plane that grooves through wind gusts than a plane that is exceptionally light on it's toes, so I'm not looking to drop too much extra weight. That is purely personal taste.

I have not looked at an e version of the focus sport. I was interested in the plane before I went with the Venus, and upgraded to the Wind from the Venus for better electric capability.

I have judged a Focus a few times at contests, and it really does seem to fly very, very well. Again, you should be happy either way. I suggest reading through both related threads in their entirety and decide on what's most important to you.

Have Fun!
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Old 12-26-2009, 06:59 AM
  #562
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110

If the scorpion does 75A with a 16x12 prop, than the Hacker has more power. I would say 16x12 is too small and to much pitch for this plane.
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Old 12-26-2009, 09:38 AM
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110

Joe,

Thanks for taking the time to do a detailed comparison between the Focus Sport and the Wind 110. One of the reasons for wanting to go with a larger plane is that it is easier to see when flying 150 m out. That was in part why picked the Venus II over the Focus Sport, the Venus has a deeper fuselage. However, the Wind 110 would be a little larger than either one so it would be even better.

Right now I would be flying at the sportsman's level and maybe on a good day at the intermediate level. Having said that, I still have a long way to go so my next pattern plane will be a learning tool and a stepping stone. In some respects, I feel that I made a little bit of a mistake by fiddling with the smaller pattern planes. It might have been cheaper at first, but once you need to upgrade to a better or larger plane, you would have been better of committing to a larger plane from the get go.

I think that in the end, the decision will almost be a coin toss. I am really torn between the two planes. I will have to keep doing a little more reading.

Once again, thank you for your help.

Teo
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Old 12-26-2009, 10:16 AM
  #564
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110

Teo ... I find the Wind S really easy to see at 150m or more ... the WindS 50 is really hard to see, can't judge the wings properly. I would say go for the WindS as your primary plane. She is so lovely. Awesome plane to fly. Decide 8S or 10S ... like I say I went 10S because I used to fly a 50cc MidWest CAP 232.
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Old 12-26-2009, 11:10 AM
  #565
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110

16x12 is not good on 4025-16, pitch is too high. 17x10 would be more than enough on 8S.  Very probable that A50 16L is more efficient than 4025 because physical dimensions are also important. 4035-330 has the same kV as 4025-16 so it would definitively take better the 17x10.
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Old 12-26-2009, 11:17 AM
  #566
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110

I have flown my WindS on 17x10, its not nice. No ooomph. A 4035-250 on 10S turns the 17x10 about 8,150 RPM and the 4020-16 on 8S is about 8,300 RPM according to the Scorpion motorcalc.
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Old 12-26-2009, 11:26 AM
  #567
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110



Usually when you try to squeeze the last W out from a motor the efficiency starts going rapidly down. It is much more visible (like in motocalc) when you can have in one table results for many different props and at certain point even if you are pumping more W in, less W are coming out!



So, again in Scorpion calc 4035-250 on 10S and 17x10 is on 8115 rpm, while 4035-330 on 8S and 17x10 is on 8850 rpm, so the ooomph should  definitively be there .

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Old 12-26-2009, 11:39 AM
  #568
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110

700 extra RPMs is nice ... I am sure.
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Old 12-26-2009, 12:05 PM
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110

Teo I am in the same boat as you, flying Sportsman and practicing Intermediate. The nice thing is that I'm equipping the Wind S as if it were a 2M plane, so things can transfer over if need be, in the future. I really liked flying the Venus. Nothing (except a pair of servos I won late last season) is transferring from the Venus to the Wind. I agree that it's nice to start big if you're flying pattern - the planes fly so much better and seem to give you more time with the schedule as you can be higher and farther out. I remember the Focus was not as easy to see as the other bigger planes.
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Old 12-26-2009, 04:48 PM
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110

For you that have Questions concerning the up elevator trim requirements on the Wind e 110 I have a Helios 90e that is about the same size and weight as the
Wind 110 I originally had a trim problem with the Helios similar to what is being reported with the Wind and after a thorough check found that the Ailerons were not exactly the same thickness as the wing cutouts provided for them. the difference was very minor But I had adjusted them to be flat on top which resulted in a spoiler effect that required up elevator trim. After finding this I mechanically adjusted the ailerons down to center and was able to remove the up trim. doing this also eliminated mix requirements in knife edge and downlines. I have a new Wind 110 Kit that I have not started to assemble yet and when I checked the wings I find the same condition that I have with the Helios wings. The difference is the same on both wing panels. The difference in thickness is 1/16" at the tip end and 1/32" at the root end. I am not saying that this is true on all of the Wind Kits and cannot say that this will solve the problem as I have not built mine yet but it might be worth checking out it sure solved the problem on my Helios 90
Buddy B
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Old 12-27-2009, 12:39 PM
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110

Why does it seem to me that the other 10S planes out there are running much bigger props, like a 21x14 etc. Is it because they are using geared inrunners, or because the motors are just that much better than the Scorpion? 18x10 seems so light in comparison.
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Old 12-27-2009, 01:00 PM
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110



Jo,



it is related to kV number and weight. Lower the kV and higher the weight it is easier to go with bigger prop. At kV 190 on 10S you can put 22x12. Nothing wrong with Scorpion!



Inrunners are completely different story and if you divide kV of a typical  inrunner like C5013XL  which is 1249 by the reduction ratio of 6,7 you get the "real" kV of 186 which is even lower than usual outrunner kV ~230 for 10S and 20x13 or 20x14 application. This is because inrunners have lower torque but are a bit more efficient so it gets compensated.

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Old 12-27-2009, 01:41 PM
  #573
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110

Quote:
This is because inrunners have lower torque but are a bit more efficient so it gets compensated.
I'm not quite sure that is the result of the effciency. It is I think more a result of the fact that an ourunner has an amount of slip (20-25%) and the inrunner does not have this slip. This is the reason that an inrunner feels different, the outrunner unloads, the inrunner tends to hold revs more.
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:14 PM
  #574
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110

Both engines have slip and slip is not a factor since the ESC compensates it. Inrunners have as much slip as outrunners, only because of the higher RPM, if you express it in a percentage of the factual RPM, the numbers are higher for outrunners. It's a misconception that an inrunner wouldn't have slip.
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Old 12-27-2009, 03:46 PM
  #575
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Default RE: Sebart Wind 110



I was curious to compare in motocalc A60-18M kV190 against C50-13XL with 6,7 reduction hence a kV186, both on 22x12.



Well the difference is almost inexistent, 2,8kW within 1A, 40rpm diff , and efficiency within 1%. The only real difference is the weight (237g less for C50) and that A60 would be able to take 2.8kW easily. At the same time it would probably not be very healthy for a C50 on that power level.



There is 30% less material (metal) in that C50 that can absorb the heat and get cooled down compared to the A60.



We should not forget the pure amount of metal that can absorb the heat produced and dissipate it, especially as we are approaching the limits of a certain motor.



Here I was not comparing 2 airplanes where one is 237g lighter than the other, just 2 motors with same combo.




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