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  1. #401

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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    I think you are talking about the Sebart WindS Pro 110. This thread is about the 140 version (2m).

    This is the thread about the 110:
    http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7905478/tm.htm


  2. #402
    mdjohnson's Avatar
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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    Sorry Henri, I am talking about the 2m Wind Pro. I have been flying the Wind S110 for the past year and a half and have just recently upgraded to the 2m version. Here is the link to the build manual:

    http://www.sebart.it/download/assemb...0S%20%202m.pdf

    Notice there are two options for the rudder servo installation. One is pull-pull and the other is with the servo mounted at the rear of the fuselage. My question is which one is everyone else using?

    Cheers

    MJ
    Never left one up there yet.......

  3. #403
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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    I would go with the rear mounted rudder option if the CG can be at the desired location. Pull-pull setup always require tension adjustment. I rear mount the rudder servos on my passport.
    Where facts are few, experts are many.
    Perfection is God\'\'\'\'s business.

  4. #404

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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    My apologies, MJ, my confusion was because the plane does not have an 'option', as in a pre-cut installation hole, as the 110 does.

    I built mine pull/pull and about 99% of the planes in competition here have pull/pull. A month after the first flight you can check the cables and give them slightly more tension, other than that I have never had to change the tension, or heard of someone doing that. There shouldn't be much tension on the cables at all, just enough.

    It's also a matter of where you want to mount your battery-plate, a CG thing. Technically, in flying, in my opinion, there is no difference.

  5. #405
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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    I found the tension adjustment is necessary here in TX during summer. The thermal expansion rate of the cables and the fiber glass fuse surely are different.

    Such a variable is removed with the rear mount approach.
    Where facts are few, experts are many.
    Perfection is God\'\'\'\'s business.

  6. #406

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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    Seba from sebart is doing it in his models (in pic1 EC2010)
    I did the same thing, pic 2
    It really takes all the trouble of pull pulls installation & center of gravity will do good
    It is recommended to do it

    Chester
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  7. #407

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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    Hi MJ

    I have asked Mr. Lorenz at [link]http://www.f3alorenz.de[/link] the same question. Here is what he answered:

    "the most pilots use the servo in the middle of the fuselage. Why? If you make the rudder servo in the rear, you will have about 3 servos behind. During stall turn, the model can be start to "pendel". Twisting left and right due to much weight in the rear.
    Make it standard in the middle, the best."


    /JJ

  8. #408
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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    When I was starting out in pattern I was putting big motors in front and moving weight to the tail to compensate. A few local, top pilots (one was DaveL) asked me why I wanted to fly a 'dumbell', and stressed a plane with a more localized CG will enter and exit flight attitudes more crisply.

    Didn't have a reall appreciation for that at the time, but recently I put a bigger motor in my Wind 110 and had to move batteries behind the CG to compensate; Not a major shift in location but enough for me to remember this conversation.

    I have little experience with pull-pull setups (2 planes in fact), but have not had any issues, and periodically check my tension. Needed adjustment after break-in period, and after travelling a lot and lots of down time (so 2 times in 2 years I needed to adjust tension).

    I appreciate the simplicity of a rear mounted rudder servo, and the ability to put 'live' weight back there if an absolute necessity, but don't think it would ever be my 'prime design'.
    Joe Marri
    Enjoying all things aviation.

  9. #409
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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    Having built and flown two Wind S Pros, I can see if you have a heavy motor in the nose why you would want to do this. You also get very positive control with the direct linkage system. Significantly more than pull-pull. With my Neu setup in the nose though, I'd have never gotten the CG right without putting the batteries litterally right behind the firewall, so I went with the pull-pull setup. Both ways work well, and both have advantages,

    Arch
    Team Futaba, Aero-Model / Hacker, Tech Aero Designs, F3A Unlimited, Team BJ Craft, Thunder Power RC, Castle Creations

  10. #410
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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    The two rudder servos on my passport weigh only 1.6oz. With linkage harrdware, it is about 2oz. So it is a very small gain in weight at the tail.

    The pendel movement during stall tur can happen with a pull-pull setup. The root cause is a little bit of excessive entry speed.
    Where facts are few, experts are many.
    Perfection is God\'\'\'\'s business.

  11. #411
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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    Hi Arch

    I am putting a Plettenberg 30-10 Advance in it. Weight of 565 gm. How much does your Neu motor weigh? With your input I may need to mountthe pull-pull as I was leaning toward the direct drive. It is just easier to me to put the servo in the rear and not have to worry about building a CF tubing and tray gizmoto mount the pull-pull.......I'm a lazy bugger!!

    FWIW I have the pull-pull in my Wind S110 and have had the same experience as everyone else.Two minortension adjustments with no other problems.

    Cheers

    MJ
    Never left one up there yet.......

  12. #412

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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    Since any thread is worthless without pics or movies.. this is me at the Worldcup contest in Sivry, where I performed terribly bad, it looked like a 3 year old was at the controls :P

    Goes to show how subverse F3A flying is; I'm used to flat lands, no hills, and they placed the flightline at an angle to any line on the ground, I clearly couldn't handle that (yet). Besides offcourse the stress of the first participation in an international contest



    And here's me flying P11 at the last contest in the Netherlands, not a terrible good flight, but not that bad either, I was content with it. There was some wind, but not much, maybe about 2 bft, 90 degrees cross. If you look closely you can see the WindS is slightly unstable around the roll-axis.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/rossie00.../0/CC_NwDXIkIA


    Setup:

    Mezjlik 20x10 CFK E prop
    Axi 5325/18 (8s)
    Castle Creations Ice 85HV
    Hyperion 5000mAh 8s1p 25C
    Castle Creations Bec Pro v2
    Hyperion 800mAh 2s1p 25C
    Futaba FASST R 6014
    Futaba BLS 451 x 3 (ailerons/rudder)
    Futaba BLS 153 x2 (elevators)

    AUW: 4600 grams including wheelpants, which I don't use much, so on the youtube movie roughly 4570 grams.

    I lowered the incidence on the main wing slightly, and have the CG slightly aft of the Sebart recomendation. Bringing it more forward seems to make it more unstable around the roll axis.


  13. #413

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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    hezik, I watched your video and thought your Axi/8s combination flew with much authority for a 10 lb pattern plane. It appears to me, as observed on the video, that your plane may be tail heavy which could account for the 'slightly unstable roll-axis". Are you carrying any down elevator trim? Also, it appears your plane is pulling to the canopy on the downlines which most all of our pattern planes do. Just my observation. I'm not trying to be critical, just giving some feedback. Thanks for including the picture and video. Regards, Everette

  14. #414

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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    No problem, all good tips are always welcome

    I don't have any trim on it and on the video it does appear to be tail heavy. Probably because I lowered incidence on the wing, you still need the angle of attack offcourse. What also might distort it, is that the video was taken from a short distance with lots of zoom.

    I do have the CG slightly more backwards than Sebart says in the manual, with this CG it tracks straight knife-edge without any further mixers needed. I have offcourse experimented with bringing the CG more forward, this made the plane more unstable.

    The 8s 5325/18 on 8s is a fine F3A engine, it has enough power. However, the setup I'm flying in the video uses too large a prop with too little pitch, you wouldn't say it looking at the video, but overall flying speed is quite slow, by far the slowest in the dutch competition. Also with this combo it's not possible to maintain constant speed in ie. loopings flown in headwind. That being said, this is solely because I'm using the wrong prop. With a 19x12 it does have the speed and power needed to maintain constant speed (even though it's pilot is not capable, the plane is ).

    Although the engine/packs are a fine combination (if propped right), there is no real advantage to going 8s. For me it was a financial issue, I already had 8s packs because I flew the Winds 110 before, and I didn't want to replace all the packs. In the end you'll get the same amount of power, at the same total weight, since you'll have to bring larger capacity baterries to fly the same program. For comparison: I use 5000mAh 8s batteries and after one P11 flight I will have used approx 4000~4400, depending on the weather and how 'throttle happy' I am at that moment. Because tha'ts a little too close for my comfort, I purchased 5400mAh batteries. To fly F-11 I would need 6000mAh batteries. Which in itself is no problem, the plane can use the weight.

    The pull to canopy was the reason why I lowered the incidence on the main wing. If trimmed 'zero gravity', it does not pull out of a downline. The times when you clearly see that happen on this video, you can contribute it to poor piloting.

    You can get an indication of the flying speed by looking at the angle I have to keep when flying knife edge.

    I don't like messing around with a plane mid-season too much, but now that the season has ended, I'm going to try to see if I can improve it. I think the wing fences will fix the unstability around the roll axis, I'm going to put back the wing incidence to factory default and also going to try to get the CG slightly more forward.

  15. #415

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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    hezik, your plane is only the second Wind S Pro I've seen fly. The first was Dave Snow's with a Contra-Drive unit at St. Louis about 5-6 weeks ago and it was impressive! Dave is an excellent pattern flyer and one heck of a builder! I feel certain you'll get your's dialed in and hopefully you will be even more competitive next season. I really appreciate you sharing your experience and look forward to hearing more in the future. Wish you the best__Everette

  16. #416

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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    Thanks! I have spoken with several WindS owners and also saw several fly. From what I gather, it can be rather hard to set it up right, to find the right CG (also a personal preference offcourse) and so on. I do really like it, but try to keep an objective mind and try not to be blind to it's shortcomings.

  17. #417

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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    After reading this thread it seems that the common opinion is to replace the supplied 3mm hinges with Robart Hinge Point hinges. s-chester is using 3/16” hinges on his composite Wind.
     
    Are 1/8” Robart hinges insufficient?
     
    On the other hand, is it possible that the balsa wood surrounding the gluing area is too weak and thus does not provide enough support for the hinges. And that this area weakens with time and flutter eventually develops. If this is the case, would the combination of using 1/8” Robart hinges and appropriate reinforcement to the gluing area be suitable.
     
    Also, Robart recommends cutting the length of the hinges because if you were to insert a whole hinge, the tip of the hinge would pick up all the glue and you would be left with with a very little amount of glue to provide support for the part of the hinge that would be touching the supporting material. The question is then, is it possible that there is insufficient glue in the hinge's contact area or are some of the hinges simply cut to short?
     
    Does everybody think that using the uncut 3/16” Robart hinges is the right solution?


  18. #418
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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    I replaced all the hinges with the 1/8' Robarts uncut. I used a small round toothpick to get epoxy in the receiving hole and then coated the hinges themselves with epoxy and then wiped it off the shaft. Using this method the serrated edges do not have epoxy on them but the troughs in between do. After inserting the hinge, place the wing (or horz stab) in a position so the epoxy can run towards the hinge. I gave the hinge pin (metal pin) a very light coat of oil before doing this so the epoxy will not "gum up the works" This is suggested in the assembly manual. 3/16 Robarts would be a problem as I had to shave a bit off of the plastic shafts ( where the shape of the hinge transitions from round to square) of even the 1/8" hinge so as not to split the installed hinge standoffs. I don't think you could shave off enough plastic on the 3/16" ones to even get them close to fitting. If you tried drillingthe standoffs to 3/16" they would disappear as theyare very thin.The composite wing may have a different standoff system but I am not sure of this. I used 15 min epoxy for this operation.

    BTW, on the horz and vert stabs, you have to use a ruler or straight edge to line up the two middle hinges. The outer hinges have the standoffs but the inner ones do not. You must get the hinge line the exact same.I lined up the two outer hinges with the ruler and then matched the two inner hinges by using my MK I eyball.

    FWIW

    Cheers

    MJ
    Never left one up there yet.......

  19. #419
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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    I just finish paint mine today
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    2010 2011 2012 2013 D3 Advance Champion
    HAIYIN Batt. Sponsored Pilot

  20. #420

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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    I have 2 questions, can someone please help.

    I have just bought a second hand 2m WindS Pro which is in really good condition but the previous owner use the stock hinges and the play is very sloppy. I have been scratching my head how I can sort this problem out. I realize I'm not going to be able to drill these hinges out so I am now considering to make a tube that will slide over the hinge with a serrated cutting edge that I could insert in to a drill. The hole will end up a bit bigger from doing this, is this possible? Has anyone got any other suggestions?

    I'm looking for different options for a spinner, what spinners are available that are not going to cost me an arm an a leg but will still run true and are fairly light? I would prefer a CF but a light weight plastic with aluminium back plate will be fine as well. What size does the spinner need to be? I see the spinner ring of the plane is 85mm but guys seem to be using a slightly smaller diameter.

    Thanks for any help
    TtT

  21. #421

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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    TtT

    The Great Planes "Nylon with Aluminum Backplate" spinner is identical to the one that comes with the WindS. The 3-1/4in diameter = 82mm. They are Tower Hobbies part #GPMQ4780- GPMQ4783, depending on the color. $14.99 USD.

    Chuck

  22. #422

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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    Thank you Chuck

    I will check it out

    TtT

  23. #423

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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro

    Hi TtT

    Well it's not easy to do it with normal drills I do not Recommend you to try

    I made myself a drill of 3 mm steel for the Dramel in high speed drilling the plastic is melting so you have to clean the drill from time to time it is smokeing to
    I did that to all the hinges of the model without failure

    Good luck
    Chester
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  24. #424

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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro


    ORIGINAL: s-chester

    Hi TtT

    Well it's not easy to do it with normal drills I do not Recommend you to try

    I made myself a drill of 3 mm steel for the Dramel in high speed drilling the plastic is melting so you have to clean the drill from time to time it is smokeing to
    I did that to all the hinges of the model without failure

    Good luck
    Chester
    Hi Chester

    Thank you very much for your description. That is a very good idea. Everyone has told me that I must not try drill them out and I was also worried that the drill will move off the plastic and into the soft wood surrounding it. This idea is really good and that sharp point will help to guide it through the center.

    Please can you explain how you made that drill. How did you make the end rough?

    Thank you once again, I think this will really help me

    TtT

  25. #425

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    RE: Sebart Wind S Pro


    cuting disk for metal of Dramel, after 3 or mor attempts it was already good
    Fine file, drill on the Dramel & running , if not rough
    Then with a rough file without running the Dramel may complete the work

    You can try it on a piece of plastic before you touch the model in terms of diameter, vibershens and clean job .
    be ready for smoke and hot liquid plastic



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