Sebart Wind S Pro
08-24-2010, 07:42 AM
#151
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RE: Sebart Wind S Pro
f3a05, you could very well be right. After viewing the above interior and exterior pictures posted by mola, this plane may well be an updated version of the beloved/much hated
"OTOP" from several years ago. I agree with you, most all composites do have their drawbacks. The point I was trying to make is that thse kit producers need to make a choice now to produce a quality kit or get out of the business. I converted to all electric pattern planes 3 years ago. About the time Hobby City was ramping up their worldwide business
via the internet. We all have seen the number of available quality kits decline in availabilty along with the unwarranted increase in kit costs that followed. Let's face it, these kits that are for sale in this shrinking market have an actual value of approx half what the retailers are asking. All I know for sure is you are about to see some people go out of business in the near future based on current costs,etc. Not to sound a negative note, it's just the reality of the situation! Regards___Everette
"OTOP" from several years ago. I agree with you, most all composites do have their drawbacks. The point I was trying to make is that thse kit producers need to make a choice now to produce a quality kit or get out of the business. I converted to all electric pattern planes 3 years ago. About the time Hobby City was ramping up their worldwide business
via the internet. We all have seen the number of available quality kits decline in availabilty along with the unwarranted increase in kit costs that followed. Let's face it, these kits that are for sale in this shrinking market have an actual value of approx half what the retailers are asking. All I know for sure is you are about to see some people go out of business in the near future based on current costs,etc. Not to sound a negative note, it's just the reality of the situation! Regards___Everette
08-24-2010, 08:13 AM
#152
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RE: Sebart Wind S Pro
Everette,
After just finishing and flying mine, it is no where near what the quality was of the OTOP series of planes. Everything on mine fit and it flies excellent. It is possible with everything being built up that there is a warp in an aileron. Fortunately I did not have mine, but the quality on the plane was very nice on mine.
Arch
After just finishing and flying mine, it is no where near what the quality was of the OTOP series of planes. Everything on mine fit and it flies excellent. It is possible with everything being built up that there is a warp in an aileron. Fortunately I did not have mine, but the quality on the plane was very nice on mine.
Arch
08-24-2010, 05:13 PM
#157
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RE: Sebart Wind S Pro
ORIGINAL: wattsup
f3a05, My source just e mailed me and said she thought this plane was built/kitted in Thailand and came out of the same factory as the Otop. That explains why the two planes look so much alike, Robart hinges, etc. Regards___Everette
f3a05, My source just e mailed me and said she thought this plane was built/kitted in Thailand and came out of the same factory as the Otop. That explains why the two planes look so much alike, Robart hinges, etc. Regards___Everette
JB
08-24-2010, 08:35 PM
#159
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RE: Sebart Wind S Pro
JB, I have to assume you are correct. My source "thought" they were in manufactured in Thailand. Your statement about them being "arguably the best" is probably open to personal interpretation. If indeed they are, why are some of them coming apart? Personally, I question whether or not they will last a full season of pattern flying. One thing is for sure, I'm not about to spend $2000.00 USD to find out! My past experience with composite planes is after approx 450 flights, they are pretty much kaput! I realize not everyone will have the same experience, some will have more flights and some will have less. Regards__Everette
08-25-2010, 04:52 AM
#160
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RE: Sebart Wind S Pro
ORIGINAL: wattsup
...
My past experience with composite planes is after approx 450 flights, they are pretty much kaput! I realize not everyone will have the same experience, some will have more flights and some will have less. Regards__Everette
...
My past experience with composite planes is after approx 450 flights, they are pretty much kaput! I realize not everyone will have the same experience, some will have more flights and some will have less. Regards__Everette
Could You in brief describe what problems You had with your all composite plane? It would be interesting for me (and perhaps others) thatis thinking of buying an all composite plane (like for example the comíng Win S Pro all composite version) what we should watchfor.
/Bo
08-25-2010, 07:16 AM
#161
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Sebart Wind S Pro
bem, my experience has been with both a glow version first and then with an electric version second. The glow motor with it's increased vibration started to fatigue the fuselage at
approx 300 flights. It should be noted the engine was a soft mounted/hyde mount 2 stroke motor. Initially what you observe is the glue joints around the formers start to lose their bond. Then because it's almost impossble to restore the origianl bond, you then experience the fuselage losing it's rigidity throughout it's length. You know at that point that the plane's ability to fly a straight line is compromised. Then all you can do is try to fly it the best you can. I can only imagine what might have happened if I had a YS 160 or 170
in the plane.The second electric version had an Axi 5330 FAI motor that was not soft mounted. The same debonding around the formers took place at approx 450 flights. I guess you could say the flight degradation took place at much slower rate with the electric version. Both planes showed wrinkles due to stress the length of the fuselage especially in the
areas of the stab tube and wing tube attachments. You can only do so much with trying to reglue the area of the stab tube due to accessabilty. My best description of the both planes flight characteristics is they started to feel "loose" as in they lost that feeling of precision that we all love to feel with a pattern plane. I gave the first one away and still have the electric version to remind me to NEVER make the same mistake again. It should be noted, sponsored pilots usually get a deal or are given a plane with the motor,ECS, etc.
so they don't have as much invested in the game as the rest of us and the composite is a quick way to get into the air. But, the experience is short lived with these planes because of the rapid degredation factor. Keep in mind sponsored pilots are expected to showcase the sponsor's products. Consequently to make a good showing they must practice alot
and fly at alot of contests. So, you see why the plane will probably last about a season or so. It's a quick fix but it's not the answer. In recent years I have flown kits from CA Models which have served me well now that I fly all electrics but given the choice I would prefer a built-up plane like Mike Hester's Black Magic VF3 or one of Mark Hunt's planes. Built up planes stand the test of time and heavy use if they are built right. Hope this has answered your questions. Regards___Everette
approx 300 flights. It should be noted the engine was a soft mounted/hyde mount 2 stroke motor. Initially what you observe is the glue joints around the formers start to lose their bond. Then because it's almost impossble to restore the origianl bond, you then experience the fuselage losing it's rigidity throughout it's length. You know at that point that the plane's ability to fly a straight line is compromised. Then all you can do is try to fly it the best you can. I can only imagine what might have happened if I had a YS 160 or 170
in the plane.The second electric version had an Axi 5330 FAI motor that was not soft mounted. The same debonding around the formers took place at approx 450 flights. I guess you could say the flight degradation took place at much slower rate with the electric version. Both planes showed wrinkles due to stress the length of the fuselage especially in the
areas of the stab tube and wing tube attachments. You can only do so much with trying to reglue the area of the stab tube due to accessabilty. My best description of the both planes flight characteristics is they started to feel "loose" as in they lost that feeling of precision that we all love to feel with a pattern plane. I gave the first one away and still have the electric version to remind me to NEVER make the same mistake again. It should be noted, sponsored pilots usually get a deal or are given a plane with the motor,ECS, etc.
so they don't have as much invested in the game as the rest of us and the composite is a quick way to get into the air. But, the experience is short lived with these planes because of the rapid degredation factor. Keep in mind sponsored pilots are expected to showcase the sponsor's products. Consequently to make a good showing they must practice alot
and fly at alot of contests. So, you see why the plane will probably last about a season or so. It's a quick fix but it's not the answer. In recent years I have flown kits from CA Models which have served me well now that I fly all electrics but given the choice I would prefer a built-up plane like Mike Hester's Black Magic VF3 or one of Mark Hunt's planes. Built up planes stand the test of time and heavy use if they are built right. Hope this has answered your questions. Regards___Everette
08-25-2010, 07:58 AM
#163
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RE: Sebart Wind S Pro
A composite plane can be built in many ways. Some are correct, some others aren't.
So, to say that a composite plane won't last long, is incorrect. The bad side of the game is that when you buy a composite plane, there is no any indication if the model is properly built or not. (of course) And you have to learn it the hard way.
I've been a F3a composite models manufacturer a few years ago, so I know what i'm talking about. There are so many small areas in a model design/construction that can could go wrong, and sometimes you can know them only after hundreds of flights.
But usually there is no enough feedback from the pilots to let you improve with the building. They simply get disappointed and prefer to buy another model. So the manufacturer is convinced to produce a perfect model. Maybe when just a little modification could turn a good model into a perfect one.
Of course there must be the will, from the manufacturer, to improve their models. And this thing doesn't happen often, because of many reasons. But that's another argument....
So, to say that a composite plane won't last long, is incorrect. The bad side of the game is that when you buy a composite plane, there is no any indication if the model is properly built or not. (of course) And you have to learn it the hard way.
I've been a F3a composite models manufacturer a few years ago, so I know what i'm talking about. There are so many small areas in a model design/construction that can could go wrong, and sometimes you can know them only after hundreds of flights.
But usually there is no enough feedback from the pilots to let you improve with the building. They simply get disappointed and prefer to buy another model. So the manufacturer is convinced to produce a perfect model. Maybe when just a little modification could turn a good model into a perfect one.
Of course there must be the will, from the manufacturer, to improve their models. And this thing doesn't happen often, because of many reasons. But that's another argument....
08-25-2010, 07:59 AM
#164
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Sebart Wind S Pro
nonstoprc, Are you sure they are fiberglass? Also let me add there is really no way to repair an all composite plane whether you have exterior or interior damage/debonding of the glue joints without gaining alot of weight. Keep in mind as you use this all composite plane in practice and at contests, you eventually will have to make repairs. The all up weight of 11 lbs is constantly looming. No matter how hard you try, you will NEVER be able restore the plane's regidity but it will continue to gain weight! Don't take my word for it, take the shortcut and spend the $2000! I'm sure Chris would appreciate your business. I'd rather not disclose the name of the two planes. It would only serve to open up yet another area of discussion, criticism and/or hard feelings. Regards___Everette
08-25-2010, 08:14 AM
#165
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Sebart Wind S Pro
Roberto B, you, more than anyone else that has reponded to this thread, knows how critical the building process is when you are building ANY type of RC pattern plane. Especially
all composites. You hit on the problem, not knowing how well built/aligned the plane is that you are about to spend $2000 on. Basically it's a "crap shoot" for the consumer! Once the market is established, it's balls to the wall with production which eventually leads to short cuts, greed and the loss of quality control, etc. Sad but true. Thanks for your response__Everette
all composites. You hit on the problem, not knowing how well built/aligned the plane is that you are about to spend $2000 on. Basically it's a "crap shoot" for the consumer! Once the market is established, it's balls to the wall with production which eventually leads to short cuts, greed and the loss of quality control, etc. Sad but true. Thanks for your response__Everette
08-25-2010, 08:23 AM
#166
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RE: Sebart Wind S Pro
I'm actually making some resarch end experiment to build a model in a completely new method to put an end to quality issues. If I'll be able to get the results I'm hoping for, I'll let you know.
08-25-2010, 10:06 AM
#167
Senior Member
RE: Sebart Wind S Pro
I'm almost ready to fly mine, it looks like I have a good set of wings etc so fingers crossed when it comes to the trimming.
As far as quality goes, the fueslarge is thin, but (hopefully) strong in all of the right places, the paint work is above average, the covering looks good, but needed ironing. Someone else did the hinging on this one, and CA was run all along the trailing edge joints to ensure it was correctly bonded (now I have seen the earlier pix I'm happy this was done!).
The price of these models in Austraila makes them one of the lowest cost current F3A models around, they don't have the same finish that an OXAI has, but they are now over twice the price of the Wind S, so i'm glad that I have one, and that there is a more cost effective competitive model is avalible.
As for the future all composite, would not a composite wing be heavier? I have read in other forums where built up wings are being kitted for the Spark and Intergral presumably to reduce the weight.
As far as quality goes, the fueslarge is thin, but (hopefully) strong in all of the right places, the paint work is above average, the covering looks good, but needed ironing. Someone else did the hinging on this one, and CA was run all along the trailing edge joints to ensure it was correctly bonded (now I have seen the earlier pix I'm happy this was done!).
The price of these models in Austraila makes them one of the lowest cost current F3A models around, they don't have the same finish that an OXAI has, but they are now over twice the price of the Wind S, so i'm glad that I have one, and that there is a more cost effective competitive model is avalible.
As for the future all composite, would not a composite wing be heavier? I have read in other forums where built up wings are being kitted for the Spark and Intergral presumably to reduce the weight.
08-25-2010, 10:18 AM
#168
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RE: Sebart Wind S Pro
Hey, how did my name get brought up here?
These are not made in the same factory as Xtreme Composite. Period. Nobody imports the Xtreme Composite F3A planes into the USA currently, read as little or as much as you choose into that. As JB mentioned, these are made by what is accepted as one of the best quality manufacturers in China. Are they perfect, nope. Nothing made mostly by hand ever will be. Are they very, very nice? Yes, and anyone who has seen one in person will attest to that. I see lots and lots of planes of course and I can say these are very nice quality planes. What happened to the plane with the ailerons pulled out, I don't know and all I see see is a picture and who can say for sure from a picture if you were not there. Was it most likely a mfg defect, yes it probably was. As for a possible wing twist in another plane, could it have been a mfg defect, of course. I won't defend the mfg if they sent out planes with defects, all I can do is try to remedy the situation as best as possible for my customers if it happens to them. The 2 here in question were both in Europe so I can't do much to help them as their retailer or importer there will need to handle that.
As for the pricing, it's a very tough thing to comment on. If people were making tons of money at $2000, then you would expect lots of manufacturers to run in to make some easy money. More likely, at $2000 very few if any mfg will make enough money to recover the tooling and mfg costs and turn a reasonable profit for the relatively small volume F3A market. Again, if it was easy money, everyone would be trying to make a few bucks, and we certainly don't see that. Are composite F3A planes "worth" $2K? That's up to the individual consumer, I personally have over $40000 of my own money at risk by just stocking planes for my customers hoping to have what they want, when they want it. I wish that there were lots of sub-$1000 ARFs out there for us, but there are not and probably won't be because there is not enough money in it for that price to entice mfg to take a chance on providing that product.
Everette, I agree completely about taking the opinions of sponsored pilots for what it's worth but as far as Arch, he is not currently sponsored by F3A Unlimited and did not get any special deal on his Wind S Pro. We would certainly like to do so when when we have a formal sponsorship program in place, but just to be clear, his comments here are from a regular retail customer.
Chris
These are not made in the same factory as Xtreme Composite. Period. Nobody imports the Xtreme Composite F3A planes into the USA currently, read as little or as much as you choose into that. As JB mentioned, these are made by what is accepted as one of the best quality manufacturers in China. Are they perfect, nope. Nothing made mostly by hand ever will be. Are they very, very nice? Yes, and anyone who has seen one in person will attest to that. I see lots and lots of planes of course and I can say these are very nice quality planes. What happened to the plane with the ailerons pulled out, I don't know and all I see see is a picture and who can say for sure from a picture if you were not there. Was it most likely a mfg defect, yes it probably was. As for a possible wing twist in another plane, could it have been a mfg defect, of course. I won't defend the mfg if they sent out planes with defects, all I can do is try to remedy the situation as best as possible for my customers if it happens to them. The 2 here in question were both in Europe so I can't do much to help them as their retailer or importer there will need to handle that.
As for the pricing, it's a very tough thing to comment on. If people were making tons of money at $2000, then you would expect lots of manufacturers to run in to make some easy money. More likely, at $2000 very few if any mfg will make enough money to recover the tooling and mfg costs and turn a reasonable profit for the relatively small volume F3A market. Again, if it was easy money, everyone would be trying to make a few bucks, and we certainly don't see that. Are composite F3A planes "worth" $2K? That's up to the individual consumer, I personally have over $40000 of my own money at risk by just stocking planes for my customers hoping to have what they want, when they want it. I wish that there were lots of sub-$1000 ARFs out there for us, but there are not and probably won't be because there is not enough money in it for that price to entice mfg to take a chance on providing that product.
Everette, I agree completely about taking the opinions of sponsored pilots for what it's worth but as far as Arch, he is not currently sponsored by F3A Unlimited and did not get any special deal on his Wind S Pro. We would certainly like to do so when when we have a formal sponsorship program in place, but just to be clear, his comments here are from a regular retail customer.
Chris
08-25-2010, 10:21 AM
#169
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RE: Sebart Wind S Pro
If indeed they are, why are some of them coming apart? Personally, I question whether or not they will last a full season of pattern flying.
I own one, being the "A" plane of Massimo Selva at last year's F3A World Championship, where he finished 29th. He flew the WindS's throughout seasons 2009 and 2010 (until july), and subsequently built 2 more with contra-rotating propellers, which he's going to fly next week at the EC in Austria. The WindS is probably the most used monoplane in Italy at this point: at t he competition in San Maarino mid july there were at least 10 WindS's on the 25 participant field. None of them had any issues at all. These planes have gone through many many flight without issues, mine has 150+ flights (according to Massimo) on it and is still in perfect conditions.
It's like cars: there are brands that are renowned for being absolutely reliable, but once in a while a car comes out of the factory that has a problem. It's normal that not all products are 100% equal in quality and build. My guess is that this issue is not common, but rather an isolated event. Let's not make the issue any bigger than it is.
Best regards
Fabrizio
08-25-2010, 02:50 PM
#170
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Sebart Wind S Pro
Chris, I was not referring to Arch, my statement was general in nature. It's good to know that you are willing to stand by the product. So, there is a warranty? If so, how long is the
Sebart Wind S Pro covered for as it relates to building/design defects? Keep in mind any warranty that is related to a defective product will have a direct bearing in the event of a personal injury accident. Also, when one purchases the plane from you, is it a spoken or is there a written warranty? We both know the problems related to most of these RC pattern planes from overseas. I do appreciate your responses but I still stand by my remarks based upon my past experince. Maybe someday, someone like Robert B, above, will get a handle on the quality issues associated with composite pattern planes but, until then_____ Regards, Everette
Sebart Wind S Pro covered for as it relates to building/design defects? Keep in mind any warranty that is related to a defective product will have a direct bearing in the event of a personal injury accident. Also, when one purchases the plane from you, is it a spoken or is there a written warranty? We both know the problems related to most of these RC pattern planes from overseas. I do appreciate your responses but I still stand by my remarks based upon my past experince. Maybe someday, someone like Robert B, above, will get a handle on the quality issues associated with composite pattern planes but, until then_____ Regards, Everette
08-25-2010, 05:31 PM
#171
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RE: Sebart Wind S Pro
ORIGINAL: Jeff Boyd 2
HAIKONG MODELS who are arguably the best manufacturer of ARF's in the World
HAIKONG MODELS who are arguably the best manufacturer of ARF's in the World
JB
08-25-2010, 06:58 PM
#173
RE: Sebart Wind S Pro
ORIGINAL: wattsup
nonstoprc, Are you sure they are fiberglass? Also let me add there is really no way to repair an all composite plane whether you have exterior or interior damage/debonding of the glue joints without gaining alot of weight. Keep in mind as you use this all composite plane in practice and at contests, you eventually will have to make repairs. The all up weight of 11 lbs is constantly looming. No matter how hard you try, you will NEVER be able restore the plane's regidity but it will continue to gain weight! Don't take my word for it, take the shortcut and spend the $2000! I'm sure Chris would appreciate your business. I'd rather not disclose the name of the two planes. It would only serve to open up yet another area of discussion, criticism and/or hard feelings. Regards___Everette
nonstoprc, Are you sure they are fiberglass? Also let me add there is really no way to repair an all composite plane whether you have exterior or interior damage/debonding of the glue joints without gaining alot of weight. Keep in mind as you use this all composite plane in practice and at contests, you eventually will have to make repairs. The all up weight of 11 lbs is constantly looming. No matter how hard you try, you will NEVER be able restore the plane's regidity but it will continue to gain weight! Don't take my word for it, take the shortcut and spend the $2000! I'm sure Chris would appreciate your business. I'd rather not disclose the name of the two planes. It would only serve to open up yet another area of discussion, criticism and/or hard feelings. Regards___Everette
08-25-2010, 08:21 PM
#174
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RE: Sebart Wind S Pro
Chris,
A positive comment so that you don't get too depressed
Igot my Wind S Pro from you last May and I did the preliminary checking for incidence, alignment, etcand it was all good.I didn't see any of the alignment issues discussed above, but maybe I'm not as good as others at detecting these problems. One thing that I do know is the planeseems to fly very true. I'm sure that I willfind things to change as I become more familar with the plane, but for right now I'm happy with it.
Terry
P.S. You won't believe how slow the down lines are and I'm not using a brake yet.
A positive comment so that you don't get too depressed
Igot my Wind S Pro from you last May and I did the preliminary checking for incidence, alignment, etcand it was all good.I didn't see any of the alignment issues discussed above, but maybe I'm not as good as others at detecting these problems. One thing that I do know is the planeseems to fly very true. I'm sure that I willfind things to change as I become more familar with the plane, but for right now I'm happy with it.
Terry
P.S. You won't believe how slow the down lines are and I'm not using a brake yet.
08-25-2010, 09:09 PM
#175
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RE: Sebart Wind S Pro
Well , 
nothing is perfact since it is hand made , i got 2 winds pro white n yellow one , both seems fine colour , covering all in good condition and all parts
fit well .... will fly it soon , can,t wait to fly it !
nothing is perfact since it is hand made , i got 2 winds pro white n yellow one , both seems fine colour , covering all in good condition and all parts fit well .... will fly it soon , can,t wait to fly it !