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  1. #1

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    The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    So watching the Wind 110 video I was shocked to see a setup that I asked about last year. It strikes me as an incredibly simple way to mount a motor and prop hence my interest.


    So has anyone in the US tried one of these?









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  2. #2
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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    Its more popular in Europe than over here. I have this system on a 50cc model with the Terminator 30-8, its great for cooling! You have to watch because its a longer setup than a conventional spinner so if your fuselage is close to 2m, the extra spinner length could be a problem.

    If you want to use the vector steering (thrust vectoring) then you have to use this setup.
    Chad Northeast

    www.f3acanada.org

  3. #3

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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    Hi Chad,
    I believe the vector thrust steering has been deemed not currently legal by the FAI F3A subcommittee.
    I will try later to get the detail. There is something in the latest from Austria EC's.

    Brian

  4. #4

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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    <<[ciam-f3a] "Vector Control">>
    Fw: [ciam-f3a] "Vector Control"
    [ciam-f3a] "Vector Control"19 April 2010 16:32:59From: ""
    To: "CIAM F3A Subcommittee Email List"
    This message comes from my mobile E-Mail adress
    Due to a regrettable typing mistake in my previous message, once again:


    Dear Subcommittee Members,

    on request of the German NAC (DAeC), the German Delegate Gerhard Woebbeking asked to put on the CIAM Bureau Meeting agenda of April 15, 2010 a clarification of the Sporting Code Rule:


    5.1.1. Definition of a Radio Controlled Aerobatic Power Model Aircraft

    A model aircraft, but not a helicopter, which is aerodynamically manoeuvred by control surface(s) in attitude, direction, and altitude by a pilot on the ground using radio control.


    The question was, whether or not an actively swivel steered propulsion device is allowed by this rule?

    The outcome reads in the Minutes of the CIAM Bureau Meeting as follows:

    β€žThe sub-committee was directed to formulate a proposal to resolve the issue. The issue was brought to the attention of the Bureau, and after discussion, the majority of the Bureau members came to the conclusion that the use of a variable incidence propulsion device was not in the spirit of the rules, and would not be allowed until such time as it is expressly allowed in the Sporting Code.”

    Stimulated by Christian Weiss, my check for the possibility to tolerate such kind of a system for the upcoming competitions, since there was no objection against the use of it during the 2009 F3A World Championship, was clearly and abruptly rejected by the Bureau.

    Best regards

    Michael Ramel
    CIAM Chairman Subcommittee F3 Radio Control Aerobatics




  5. #5

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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    Guilty until proven innocent. Can't do something until you get permission. Why I hate committees and bureaus.

    Seems to me a propeller blade is a surface and if you move it to control an airplane it is within the spirit of the rules.

    The fewer the rules the better.

    Jim

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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    ORIGINAL: OhD

    Guilty until proven innocent. Can't do something until you get permission. Why I hate committees and bureaus.

    Seems to me a propeller blade is a surface and if you move it to control an airplane it is within the spirit of the rules.

    The fewer the rules the better.

    Jim
    Ah hah! I knew you were a libertarian


    I couldn't agree more though.


    Personally I wasn't thinking about the vectored thrust rather, I was only interested in the motor mounted prop hub and spinner. Thinking of trying it on my backup plane, the Integral. Still planning on flying the heck outta my Delro, but there's always room for experiments

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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    I fly with the Pletty in the spinner and sofar it has been faultless. Length, as Chad mentions, can be an issue. Also, the nose section has to be strong enough to take this solution. Other then that, I find the concept of having the blades mounted on the engine iso outside the engine, in combination with the folding blades technically a very nice solution which must reduce stress on both the motor (axis) and the airframe. That is also why I decided to take this road, to try. Sofar (200 flights) it works.

    Volkert
    Club Saito member #371

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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    ORIGINAL: serious power
    I believe the vector thrust steering has been deemed not currently legal by the FAI F3A subcommittee.
    I do not steer with it only adjust the sidethrust. Thats allowed I think.

  9. #9

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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    Hi,
    My understanding is that under current rules it is not allowed.

    Brian

  10. #10

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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    It's allowed, no matter what the CIAM/FIA, or whoever, states.

    As long as Bernd Beschorner is still in the 2009 resultset, it's allowed. He used it and didn't get kicked out.

    If they persist it's not allowed, than Bernd has to be taken out of the results for 2009/2010.

  11. #11

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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?


    ORIGINAL: hezik

    It's allowed, no matter what the CIAM/FIA, or whoever, states.

    As long as Bernd Beschorner is still in the 2009 resultset, it's allowed. He used it and didn't get kicked out.

    If they persist it's not allowed, than Bernd has to be taken out of the results for 2009/2010.
    Hi,
    Read the email.
    It's dated April 2010.
    Bernd did use it in Portugal.
    Now he can not.
    I think you will find that the people who make the rules do matter.

  12. #12

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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    I read the email. Fact is that the rulebook hasn't changed. Fact is that a contestant was allowed to use it.

    In legal terms that's called a precedent. So if I were to turn up with a vector steering nose and they would prohibit me from flying, then they woud have to take out Bernd of the 2009 scores as well.

    Their standpoint on this won't hold up legally. And it does have to.

    So either they take Bernd out of the 2009 scores, or they change the rulebook stating specifically that it's not allowed, or it's still allowed, as it was in 2009. No matter what they say.

    You can't allow something one year and then forbid it the next, if the rulebook is still the same.

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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    Really ?
    You just may be misleading some people that read this.
    As for myself I will accept the subcommittee ruling and not install it.

    Brian

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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    Everyone has to make up their own mind about wether to use something or not. I'm just stating my opinion which doesn't neccesarily constitutes 'the truth'.

    If I were in the position to choose to use a vector steering nose or not, I woudn't. At the least the use is controversial, so you can save yourself a lot of hassle by simply using a traditional engine setup.

    However, that doesn't change the fact that they're now trying to do something that can't be done. Based upon the same rulebook, they can't first allow something and then forbid it. Within one permutation of the rulebook they can either allow something or not. In this specific case, not allowing something would have consequences for the 2009 results.

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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    I think you'll find hezik, that the subcommitee has taken a look at this and the ruling will be "from this point on", and will not affect the standings of the 2009 season.

    Unless of course you're talking in the realms of the space-time continuum and possibly some form of causality loop, in which case you're still wrong.
    Go knife edge your cub!

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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    This is a serious sport. It has to follow rules and decisions that the subcomitee make have to be able to hold up in court. They won't.

    All we need now is someone to oppose the subcomittee on this. I'd say Bernd would be the ideal candidate for this.

    Besides that, could you stick to the argument and not try to dilute the discussion with flames? It's childish and uncalled for.

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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    Hezik,
    You may be looking at this from the wrong viewpoint.
    It was used in Portugal but that does not mean it was 'allowed'.
    It just means it ,on that occasion, was not disallowed.
    That would be because 'they' did not know about it and or because the question now put to the subcommittee had not been asked at that time.

    It now is as it is ,period.

    Brian

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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    You do realize that that may be true, but that it also may be true that you are looking at it from the wrong viewpoint?

    So suppose your neighbour gets cought driving 100mph on the 80mph road before your house, but doesn't get fined. The next day you do the same. You get fined.

    What would you say then? Ah ok, yesterday it was allowed and now it's not? And they're the police so always right?

    The CIAM is not just free to do as they please. Offcourse they make the policy, however that doesn't mean that whatever they do or say is automatically true and set in stone. As stated before, it would have to hold up in court, if anyone was crazy enough to take it there, and it simply wouldn't.

    They can decide tomorrow that from this day forward no pink planes are allowed, but I can guarantee you that wouldn't hold either. Same goes here. Their rulings are not absolute, one can protest and then they would have to go into it and reevaluate their standpoints.

  19. #19
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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    In court it would be down to the interpretaion put on the rules by the Judge hearing that argument, at the next court hearing on the same subject a different Judge may interperate the rules a different way, according to the seniority of the Judge is what interpretation will stand at the time.

    Mike
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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    The rules are clear that "control surfaces" are the only method allowed and a propellor is not a control surface. Control surfaces mounted the the airstream of the prop are ok. Tilting the motor to change thrust angles for the purpose of controlling the plane should never have been allowed at the 2009 WC and the competitor should have been required to disconnect the system and glue/screw it up solid, thereby still allowing the competitor to compete with a rules compliant airframe.

    The professionalism of the organsing body is brought into question when something is allowed under one set of rules, then disallowed under the sames rules later on. The onus should be on the competitor to make enquiries if any new technology/methods contravene the rules of the sport, not lump it on the officals at the comp to make a spot ruling as no official wants to send someone home.



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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?


    ORIGINAL: bjr_93tz

    The rules are clear that ''control surfaces'' are the only method allowed and a propellor is not a control surface. Control surfaces mounted the the airstream of the prop are ok. Tilting the motor to change thrust angles for the purpose of controlling the plane should never have been allowed at the 2009 WC and the competitor should have been required to disconnect the system and glue/screw it up solid, thereby still allowing the competitor to compete with a rules compliant airframe.

    The professionalism of the organsing body is brought into question when something is allowed under one set of rules, then disallowed under the sames rules later on. The onus should be on the competitor to make enquiries if any new technology/methods contravene the rules of the sport, not lump it on the officals at the comp to make a spot ruling as no official wants to send someone home.


    I totally disagree. The prop has aerodynamic surfaces and they do control the aircraft in one degree of freedom. Your interpretation would forbid changing the rpm of the prop and/or the pitch of the prop. Those are far more effective in controlling the aircraft than changing the alignment of the prop. I also believe a tail rotor would meet the requirements for the same reason. From a technical standpoint the rule as written does not outlaw changing the configuration of the airframe during flight. I also don't believe the competitor is obliged to figure out what the spirit of the rules are.

    What about changing wing sweep or dihedral during flight? What about changing the cg? I can think of all kinds of configurations that would drive you nuts if you want to write rules to keep airplanes looking like what you think an airplane should look like and behave like. I can't believe they actually said, "not a helicopter" to try to define what an airplane is. Sounds like the Congress is writing the rules.

    Jim

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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    This type of stifling of change and progress happens in all sports, F1 being the one that springs to mind at the moment, the competitors have to sail as close to the rules as they can to get any advantage over the oposition, if this did not happen then the rest of us would not have ABS brakes, Traction control, Low profile tyres and many other improvements to make our motoring safer, I know this is way beyond the subject here, but experimentation is what improves a product for us mear mortals to use and play with.

    Another that comes to mind is what the happened to Graeme Oberie when he put very short stem and handle bars on his hour record bike and the lengths the officials went to trying to find a way of banning it, so he changed his position on the bike again and they eventually banned that, all without changing the official rules.

    This happens in all sports, the FAI are not alone.

    Mike
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  23. #23

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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?

    Here, here! Well said, Mike! I suppose the counter argument would be costs could spiral out of control due to high tech innovations required to stay competitive, but really I'm not a believer, just playing devils advocate.



    By the by, love your signature. Have you by chance seen Spinal Tap, the spoof documentary on a rock band? I think the guitarist would disagree with your statement about 100% because his amp went to 11




    Joe

  24. #24
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    RE: The Plettenberg nose exists. Anyone in the US tried it?


    ORIGINAL: 2Sunny

    By the by, love your signature. Have you by chance seen Spinal Tap, the spoof documentary on a rock band? I think the guitarist would disagree with your statement about 100% because his amp went to 11

    Joe
    Which just goes to prove that his amp was only at 90% previously.

    Mike
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