Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes
12-17-2015, 11:28 AM
#1551
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Having about 200 flights on the V4 between the Mystery and the Epic Bipe, I was really impressed with the prototype Brenner sent me. First thing I noticed right away was the lighter weight of the whole thing. This of course meant that my battery had to be moved up, but not a big deal. After getting a few mounting issues resolved (future planes will use the Budd set-up Brenner) I just started flying it and flying it to make sure I was confident in it in general. I was terrified about the unit being held on by just the motor shaft, but after many texts, emails and flights, I don't even think about it anymore. I first tried the really hot 650-103 motor set-up but that didn't last very long with me. The sound was awesome (old F-1 sound), but it sounded like it was going to explode over time (just sound alone, everything was fine). Letting Brenner know the style I was going to fly in Switzerland he suggested that I use the 650-78 motor which was perfect for what I wanted. I used the 22x18 and 22x20 props for all conditions. I was able to fly slow and close when calm, and move it out a little when the wind picked up I will experiment with the 22x20 and 22x22 prop combo when I start flying again just to see what happens. I would try the 600 motor but the unit was so light with the 650 that we had to extend the battery tray forward to get the cg where I needed it, so maybe in the next one. If I had the Epic Bipe I would take some install pics, but its in Miami. Thank you Brenner for trusting in me not to royally screw up your testing and making a solid product that I could 'test' at the Worlds.
12-26-2015, 11:43 AM
#1552
Thread Starter
A setup like this would be super light, and very powerful.
Brenner ...
12-26-2015, 11:50 AM
#1553
Thread Starter
Having about 200 flights on the V4 between the Mystery and the Epic Bipe, I was really impressed with the prototype Brenner sent me. First thing I noticed right away was the lighter weight of the whole thing. This of course meant that my battery had to be moved up, but not a big deal. After getting a few mounting issues resolved (future planes will use the Budd set-up Brenner) I just started flying it and flying it to make sure I was confident in it in general. I was terrified about the unit being held on by just the motor shaft, but after many texts, emails and flights, I don't even think about it anymore. I first tried the really hot 650-103 motor set-up but that didn't last very long with me. The sound was awesome (old F-1 sound), but it sounded like it was going to explode over time (just sound alone, everything was fine). Letting Brenner know the style I was going to fly in Switzerland he suggested that I use the 650-78 motor which was perfect for what I wanted. I used the 22x18 and 22x20 props for all conditions. I was able to fly slow and close when calm, and move it out a little when the wind picked up I will experiment with the 22x20 and 22x22 prop combo when I start flying again just to see what happens. I would try the 600 motor but the unit was so light with the 650 that we had to extend the battery tray forward to get the cg where I needed it, so maybe in the next one. If I had the Epic Bipe I would take some install pics, but its in Miami. Thank you Brenner for trusting in me not to royally screw up your testing and making a solid product that I could 'test' at the Worlds.
Congratulations on such a great finish at the Worlds. Your finish is the highest placing finish for a Contra Drive at the Worlds ever. (I look forward to seeing you do even better in 2017..)
We were all very grateful that you had enough trust and faith in us to go with the V4 Contra Drive for your number one setup, even though we were still doing prototype testing at the time.
Your feedback was critical during that time, and the V4 Contra design has benefited tremendously from it.
Brenner ...
02-01-2016, 07:08 PM
#1555
Thread Starter
Sure, see attached for some pictures of an installation that was done recently by Shayne & John Lysaght in Australia.
I have some more pictures on my work PC, but I'll have to wait until tomorrow before I can post them.
Brenner ...
02-02-2016, 03:54 AM
#1556
thanks for the pics. I know you mentioned you have more on your work computer, would love to see those as well. Also, do you have any pics on attaching to rubber isolators to the motor mount. There are lots of parts in the package and I have never used this set up before. Thanks in advance.
02-02-2016, 05:26 AM
#1557
Thread Starter
thanks for the pics. I know you mentioned you have more on your work computer, would love to see those as well. Also, do you have any pics on attaching to rubber isolators to the motor mount. There are lots of parts in the package and I have never used this set up before. Thanks in advance.
Here are some more pictures:
This is a picture that shows the main parts of the mounting system:
I hope this helps.
Brenner ...
02-03-2016, 12:28 PM
#1559
Thread Starter
Quick update on the V4:
We have started shipping Drives, (see Robert's post..) but these Drives are using parts from a pre-production build, so our stock on hand is actually quite limited. Also, we have more than enough orders to cover all of these pre-production parts.
However, we are preparing to receive a much larger batch of production parts by the end of this week. As soon as we get them, the aluminum parts will go out for anodizing, and the steel parts will go out for heat treat, which should take no more than two weeks, tops.
The steel parts will come back from heat treat in just a few days, so by the middle of next week we will be in a position to fill orders for unanodized Drive assemblies. Customers wanting anodized assemblies will have to wait the additional 1 1/2 weeks.
The actual Drive assembly is intended to be delivered with black anodize. The spinners come in natural aluminum as standard, and color anodize finish can be ordered for a $100 USD charge.
f3aunlimited.com is handling all V4 sales, so all orders should be placed through them. Mike Mueller from f3aunlimited is determining the build/ship priority, so my suggestion for anyone who wants to accelerate delivery is to force him to take your money.
Brenner ...
We have started shipping Drives, (see Robert's post..) but these Drives are using parts from a pre-production build, so our stock on hand is actually quite limited. Also, we have more than enough orders to cover all of these pre-production parts.
However, we are preparing to receive a much larger batch of production parts by the end of this week. As soon as we get them, the aluminum parts will go out for anodizing, and the steel parts will go out for heat treat, which should take no more than two weeks, tops.
The steel parts will come back from heat treat in just a few days, so by the middle of next week we will be in a position to fill orders for unanodized Drive assemblies. Customers wanting anodized assemblies will have to wait the additional 1 1/2 weeks.
The actual Drive assembly is intended to be delivered with black anodize. The spinners come in natural aluminum as standard, and color anodize finish can be ordered for a $100 USD charge.
f3aunlimited.com is handling all V4 sales, so all orders should be placed through them. Mike Mueller from f3aunlimited is determining the build/ship priority, so my suggestion for anyone who wants to accelerate delivery is to force him to take your money.
Brenner ...
02-05-2016, 06:10 PM
#1560
here are some pics of my install of the V4 in my Agenda. Looking forward to flying it. The V4 gears are extremely smooth, and doesn't have the V3 clicking sound when you move the props by hand. Very well done Brenner and Mike!!!!!
Last edited by rgreen24; 02-05-2016 at 07:04 PM.
02-06-2016, 10:38 AM
#1561
Thread Starter
A quick comment about mounting Contra Drives.
I would ask people to please use the mounts that are supplied with the V4 Drive. We didn't supply rubber mounts with our V3 Drive, but we are doing this with the V4 Drive, because it is important for the mounting system to be properly tuned to the Drive.
We have seen some customers who have gotten into trouble by using a mounting system that doesn't have it's stiffness properly tuned, and these systems usually have an elevated natural resonant frequency that releases too much energy when the Drive is accelerated through it, which causes bad vibration.
Unfortunately, when this happens, it is intuitive to think that the mounting system isn't stiff enough, when in actual fact it is too stiff, and increasing the stiffness just makes things worse.
This is a website that explains the theory behind this stuff:
http://www.kineticsystems.com/page306.html
So, the upshot here is that unless you are familiar with this stuff, and understand how it is necessary to tune a mounting system in order to minimize vibration, please use the mounting system, and mounting instructions that we supply with the Drive. (like Robert has done ..)
Brenner ...
I would ask people to please use the mounts that are supplied with the V4 Drive. We didn't supply rubber mounts with our V3 Drive, but we are doing this with the V4 Drive, because it is important for the mounting system to be properly tuned to the Drive.
We have seen some customers who have gotten into trouble by using a mounting system that doesn't have it's stiffness properly tuned, and these systems usually have an elevated natural resonant frequency that releases too much energy when the Drive is accelerated through it, which causes bad vibration.
Unfortunately, when this happens, it is intuitive to think that the mounting system isn't stiff enough, when in actual fact it is too stiff, and increasing the stiffness just makes things worse.
This is a website that explains the theory behind this stuff:
http://www.kineticsystems.com/page306.html
So, the upshot here is that unless you are familiar with this stuff, and understand how it is necessary to tune a mounting system in order to minimize vibration, please use the mounting system, and mounting instructions that we supply with the Drive. (like Robert has done ..)
Brenner ...
02-25-2016, 04:44 PM
#1563
Thread Starter
Hey Stuart,
Sure, I'd be glad to.
The Pyro 600 motor is about 235g or so, and is the more powerful of the two motors. Using this motor will result in the lightest system possible. The Drive, motor, spinners, and props will weight about 600g.
The Pyro 650 motor is about 305g.
The Pyro 600 motor will run hotter than the Pyro 650 motor, but still not as hot as either the Hacker C50, or the Neu f3a motor. The Pyro 650 motor will run ice cold.
Both motors are interchangeable. However, the Pyro 600 motor is a 14 pole motor, whereas the Pyro 650 motor is a 10 pole motor. This means that the Pyro 600 requires an ESC that commutates faster than the Pyro 650 motor does, which means that the Pyro 600 works with fewer brands of ESC.
Both motors will work the Kontronik brand of ESC, and also the Jeti Mezon brand of ESC. However, the Pyro 600 will generally have trouble working with a Castle Controller. The 650 will work with a Castle controller.
The Pyro 650 motor will produce about the same amount of power as a Neu f3a motor running with a V3 Contra Drive. The Pyro 600 motor will produce more power than this.
What this means is that the 650 motor is well matched with lower pitched props, but is bogged down a little by high pitch props. Whereas the Pyro 600 motor produces enough power to work well with higher pitched props, but will tend to overspeed lower pitch props.
For this reason we recommend that the Pyro 600 motor be ATVed back 10% or so when running lower pitch props in order to better match the power delivered to the props.
One thing to consider is that it is likely that larger diameter Contra props will become available either this year or next, that will be a better match for the Pyro 600 at 100% ATV, and dialing it back will no longer be needed.
If you are trying to put together the lightest system possible, and you want it to be "future proofed", then the Pyro 600 is your best choice. However, this motor will require a more expensive controller so that it is commutated fast enough.
If you want a system that runs very cool, is able to use a Castle controller, and has power similar to the V3 Drive with a Neu f3a motor, then the Pyro 650 is your best choice.
Brenner ...
Sure, I'd be glad to.
The Pyro 600 motor is about 235g or so, and is the more powerful of the two motors. Using this motor will result in the lightest system possible. The Drive, motor, spinners, and props will weight about 600g.
The Pyro 650 motor is about 305g.
The Pyro 600 motor will run hotter than the Pyro 650 motor, but still not as hot as either the Hacker C50, or the Neu f3a motor. The Pyro 650 motor will run ice cold.
Both motors are interchangeable. However, the Pyro 600 motor is a 14 pole motor, whereas the Pyro 650 motor is a 10 pole motor. This means that the Pyro 600 requires an ESC that commutates faster than the Pyro 650 motor does, which means that the Pyro 600 works with fewer brands of ESC.
Both motors will work the Kontronik brand of ESC, and also the Jeti Mezon brand of ESC. However, the Pyro 600 will generally have trouble working with a Castle Controller. The 650 will work with a Castle controller.
The Pyro 650 motor will produce about the same amount of power as a Neu f3a motor running with a V3 Contra Drive. The Pyro 600 motor will produce more power than this.
What this means is that the 650 motor is well matched with lower pitched props, but is bogged down a little by high pitch props. Whereas the Pyro 600 motor produces enough power to work well with higher pitched props, but will tend to overspeed lower pitch props.
For this reason we recommend that the Pyro 600 motor be ATVed back 10% or so when running lower pitch props in order to better match the power delivered to the props.
One thing to consider is that it is likely that larger diameter Contra props will become available either this year or next, that will be a better match for the Pyro 600 at 100% ATV, and dialing it back will no longer be needed.
If you are trying to put together the lightest system possible, and you want it to be "future proofed", then the Pyro 600 is your best choice. However, this motor will require a more expensive controller so that it is commutated fast enough.
If you want a system that runs very cool, is able to use a Castle controller, and has power similar to the V3 Drive with a Neu f3a motor, then the Pyro 650 is your best choice.
Brenner ...
02-26-2016, 09:03 AM
#1564
Thank you for the detailed response. I am sure others will be happy you posted it as well.
More decisions......................................... ...................
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02-26-2016, 05:26 PM
#1566
With the relatively warm winter, and generous loan of a few motors from Brenner, I have been able to accumulate quite a bit of flight time on a V4 system with several motors.
Most generally view my power setups as being on the "hot" side. I found the Pyro 600-09 14 pole to be substantially more power than my V3 setups (using a Neu 1512-2Y 1380KV), and very fast if using the higher pitched props.....and very capable of rapidly consuming mah if some combination of ATV, Throttle Tech, or the throttle stick are not employed to moderate the power.
The 650-83 10 pole seems to be very comparable to my V3 setups - likely a small step behind, but I am comparing V4 setups in relatively colder air (40F) to V3 setups in warmer air (80F) - providing an exact basis for comparison won't be possible until warmer weather arrives.
I would say my Allure is setup with better than average cooling for the motor. The 650-83 was typically 20F above ambient after a flight (measuring the center shaft with an IR gun) and the 600-09 was typically 40F above ambient after a flight. With reasonable cooling, I can't see a problem with either motor running anywhere near "hot".
I would note that depending on your preference for powering the RX/servos, the Castle ESC is substantially lighter than Jeti by about 50 grams....this becomes close to a wash if you use the BEC of the Jeti Mezon. I have asked Castle about possible improvements in commutation rate, and the answer was "in the works", but no anticipated release date at this time.
Most generally view my power setups as being on the "hot" side. I found the Pyro 600-09 14 pole to be substantially more power than my V3 setups (using a Neu 1512-2Y 1380KV), and very fast if using the higher pitched props.....and very capable of rapidly consuming mah if some combination of ATV, Throttle Tech, or the throttle stick are not employed to moderate the power.
The 650-83 10 pole seems to be very comparable to my V3 setups - likely a small step behind, but I am comparing V4 setups in relatively colder air (40F) to V3 setups in warmer air (80F) - providing an exact basis for comparison won't be possible until warmer weather arrives.
I would say my Allure is setup with better than average cooling for the motor. The 650-83 was typically 20F above ambient after a flight (measuring the center shaft with an IR gun) and the 600-09 was typically 40F above ambient after a flight. With reasonable cooling, I can't see a problem with either motor running anywhere near "hot".
I would note that depending on your preference for powering the RX/servos, the Castle ESC is substantially lighter than Jeti by about 50 grams....this becomes close to a wash if you use the BEC of the Jeti Mezon. I have asked Castle about possible improvements in commutation rate, and the answer was "in the works", but no anticipated release date at this time.
02-26-2016, 05:56 PM
#1567
Thread Starter
02-29-2016, 05:53 PM
#1568
We have been getting some decent weather days in Omaha, and I have finally been able to test my V4. Having never owned a contra drive, I did not really know what to expect. The weight is as advertised, 604 grams with props. When I did my initial run up, I was at 93 Amps and Brenner does recommend a speed controller that can handle 100Amps intermittently. I chose the Mezon 90, because it has been proven and I like the BEC version. The drive start up is very smooth and the transition from idle to full throttle is also very smooth. I am running the 22x22 rear and the 22x20 up front, and this set does provide a nice constant speed. to me it almost feels like the upline and downline in terms of speed appear to be the same because of the downline breaking. This makes going into the next maneuver awesome, because you have time to think and position the model where you want it. I am sure the V1, V2, and V3 were and are great drives, but I am glad I waited for the V4. It is as light as, or in some cases lighter than a single prop set up, and the benefits of the Contra are immense. As the weather continues to improve, I will continue to relay my impressions, but so far I am really excited about competing with a contra model this year. Thanks Brenner and Mike for pushing the boundaries of our sport.
02-29-2016, 06:03 PM
#1569
Thread Starter
Hey Robert,
I'm glad to see that you've got your Drive in the air. That was actually pretty quick.
Here in Michigan we still have snow on the ground, so I think it will be while before we can fly again.
The props you are using should be on the fast side. At the next contest I can lend you other combinations to try that will be even slower. (we have even faster ones too...)
Brenner ...
I'm glad to see that you've got your Drive in the air. That was actually pretty quick.
Here in Michigan we still have snow on the ground, so I think it will be while before we can fly again.
The props you are using should be on the fast side. At the next contest I can lend you other combinations to try that will be even slower. (we have even faster ones too...)
Brenner ...
03-01-2016, 11:16 AM
#1573
Thread Starter
Hey Robert,
Actually the set I'm thinking about is a 20.5x20.5 front with a 20x22.5 rear.
I'm not quite sure what Dave was running. He usually takes our props and modifies them.
Brenner ...
Actually the set I'm thinking about is a 20.5x20.5 front with a 20x22.5 rear.
I'm not quite sure what Dave was running. He usually takes our props and modifies them.
Brenner ...
03-01-2016, 12:08 PM
#1575
Thread Starter
They are no worse, and in many instances they are better.
All conditions being equal they probably take about 10% less from your packs, but there's no free lunch. They also have less vertical stump pulling power as well, so it's like driving your car in a higher gea. You can go faster, but you get bogged down on the hills.
Most people prefer the 22" props because of this. I used to prefer the 20" props when I was flying my V3 drive, but with my V4 I prefer the 22" props.
I think the reason for this is because the V4 has enough power to push the higher pitch 22" props to whatever speed I want, and I don't have to give up vertical performance.
Also, the 20" props are way too fast for me when I use them with my V4. I think with the V4 the preferred direction is towards larger diameter props, not smaller diameter props.
Brenner ...
All conditions being equal they probably take about 10% less from your packs, but there's no free lunch. They also have less vertical stump pulling power as well, so it's like driving your car in a higher gea. You can go faster, but you get bogged down on the hills.
Most people prefer the 22" props because of this. I used to prefer the 20" props when I was flying my V3 drive, but with my V4 I prefer the 22" props.
I think the reason for this is because the V4 has enough power to push the higher pitch 22" props to whatever speed I want, and I don't have to give up vertical performance.
Also, the 20" props are way too fast for me when I use them with my V4. I think with the V4 the preferred direction is towards larger diameter props, not smaller diameter props.
Brenner ...