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Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes

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Contra Rotating Propeller Drive for f3a 2m Pattern Planes

Old 05-21-2016, 02:06 AM
  #1651  
bem
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Originally Posted by J Lachowski
...Agenda...
The plane just feels too draggy and I just can't see the color scheme and wing planform as well as that on the Invitation. Plane is for sale. If ya can't see it, no sense flying it.
Hi,
If You can unheat and remove the small squares on underside of wing and stab and then apply white rectangles like in below photo (that I painted the white retangles in Photoshop, on an Agenda CD) I would be very surprised if You will not get a big improvment, at least what is up and down. Maybe You mean it is the color scheme in general that make the model hard to judge position in the air, not just what is top- and underside?
Anyway, all planes I have seen with the 4-rectangle check pattern on underside wing and stab helps very much in the air in my opinion.

/Bo

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Last edited by bem; 05-21-2016 at 02:09 AM.
Old 05-21-2016, 03:45 AM
  #1652  
rgreen24
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Hey Joe, I do share your frustration about seeing it. The colors aren't the best, but I have made some changes to the top of the wing and shortly soon the bottom of the wing to make it more visible. Right now I have to trust where I put it, in relation to inverted flight, if not here comes the rudder fix

Last edited by rgreen24; 05-22-2016 at 04:50 PM.
Old 05-21-2016, 07:18 AM
  #1653  
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I'm not a pattern guy, stumbled across this. However, I have spent some time flying wing on TU-95's and I can tell you that those planes are much faster than one would think. Now those are multi-blade counter rotating. Don't know that it's germane per se, but would wonder if there might be a speed application. The science nerd in me coming out I suppose.

Nice work and great engineering.
Old 05-21-2016, 12:41 PM
  #1654  
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Originally Posted by rgreen24
Hey Joe, I do share your frustration about seeing it. The colors aren't the best, but I have made some changes to the top of the wing and shortly soon the bottom of the wing to make it more visible. Right now I have to trust that where I put it, in relation to be inverted t be inverted is true, if not here comes the rudder fix
Let us know how it works out. For me it is more of seeing wings level. The Invitation wing planform is just much easier to see in that respect. The Invitation fuselage is much better to see than the Agendas, as well. I think the blue going through the wing cross section makes seeing the wings more difficult.

On another note, my initial impression of the 3 blade on the Invitation is positive.
Old 05-21-2016, 01:55 PM
  #1655  
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Originally Posted by J Lachowski
Let us know how it works out. For me it is more of seeing wings level. The Invitation wing planform is just much easier to see in that respect. The Invitation fuselage is much better to see than the Agendas, as well. I think the blue going through the wing cross section makes seeing the wings more difficult.

On another note, my initial impression of the 3 blade on the Invitation is positive.

Agree on the Agenda. It needs to come out with ARC version if BJ won't offer a more traditional scheme. The bottom of the Agenda just blends right in to the dreary overcast sky we had today. Very difficult.
Old 05-22-2016, 02:22 PM
  #1656  
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Default Agenda WIngs

Hey Brenner,

Sorry to hijack your thread, that being said, Joe here is what I did today with my Agenda wing. Hopefully it will show up a little better
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Old 05-23-2016, 03:34 AM
  #1657  
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Originally Posted by rgreen24
Hey Brenner,

Sorry to hijack your thread, that being said, Joe here is what I did today with my Agenda wing. Hopefully it will show up a little better
I see inverted fine. Just can't see wings level.
Old 05-23-2016, 05:40 AM
  #1658  
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I see. With the wings on this plane being short, you may have to fly a little higher so you can see the outboard wing
Old 05-24-2016, 08:49 AM
  #1659  
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I am having an issue with seeing the wings level also. I think the issue is that the color scheme causes the wing to blend into the fuse making it hard to see the wings and determine wings level. I am thinking about changing the pattern on the fuse and making more white space by painting over a couple of the stripes. Someone suggested that I use a white masking tape first to see if it makes a difference before I paint it. I have only had one day in months to fly so I have not had a chance to try it. Makes sense to me. See if that helps you.
Old 05-24-2016, 01:01 PM
  #1660  
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Originally Posted by Bubblehead575
I am having an issue with seeing the wings level also. I think the issue is that the color scheme causes the wing to blend into the fuse making it hard to see the wings and determine wings level. I am thinking about changing the pattern on the fuse and making more white space by painting over a couple of the stripes. Someone suggested that I use a white masking tape first to see if it makes a difference before I paint it. I have only had one day in months to fly so I have not had a chance to try it. Makes sense to me. See if that helps you.
The issue you describe is what I thought. I did tape white over the blue. I think it helps, but when I did it, I flew the plane on a cloudy day and had to rely on a local sport flyer for a second opinion. I wasn't 100% sure. Be careful and do not cover any of the lettering on the fuselage. I covered the word Contradrive and the tape I used removed the clearcoat and some of the letters when I removed it. Luckily, I had some of Brenners decals to cover what was removed. At this stage I am not going to do anything to the finish. Not sure I will be keeping this plane in the long run. I have something else in the works I hope will be better for me. Until I know, the plane is a backup and I will continue to fly the Invitation as my primary in the meantime. The standard Invitation fuselage finish is the best that BJ has done to date. Another thing that aggravates me is, why do the manufacturers insist on using silver in other places other than the canopy area? You can't see it. At least I can't. Enough of hijacking the Contra thread.
Old 05-24-2016, 06:28 PM
  #1661  
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Brenner and Mike,

do you have any pics of your installation of the new blue isolator mounts, they look a little different than the bud mounts.

thanks,
Old 05-29-2016, 08:44 PM
  #1662  
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I haven't posted to this thread for some time....but I have accumulated a number of flights on the V4 over the winter, spring, and now summer. I've not finished compiling / evaluating data, but the V4 most definitely is a substantial weight savings over the V3 and offers similar or better performance depending on the motor chosen. Thus far, I've run the V4 with a Neu 1512-2.5Y and a variety of Kontronik motors - 650-83, 600-09, and "Dekker" wound 650-88, 600-88, and 900-97. My baseline prop setup from the V3 is 22x20F and 21.5x20R (with APC style tips, mods by me, from Brenner props) and that is what I have been running as a baseline on most of the V4 setups. This weekend, I tried some of the Falcon props - 23x20F with 23x22R. Bottom line - I like them! Compared to my baseline setup, I saw about a 10 amp increase (in air), same top speed, equal or better downline braking (I had to increase the brake percentage with the Falcon props), and was able to achieve constant speed presentation with less throttle work. The sound of the Falcons transitioning from brake on/off is much harder to discern. Overall, they might be a little bit louder in the air (larger diameter), but, the overall sound is more constant.
Old 05-29-2016, 09:22 PM
  #1663  
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Originally Posted by rgreen24
Brenner and Mike,

do you have any pics of your installation of the new blue isolator mounts, they look a little different than the budd mounts.

thanks,
Hey Robert,

The blue isolator mounts are a direct replacement for the rubber parts in the Budd Mounts. Everything else is the same.

Brenner ...
Old 05-30-2016, 04:43 AM
  #1664  
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Hi Dave,

Thanks for all that good information. I am setting up one V4 now. Are you using the Throttle Tech? If yes, what is your settings recommendations for compensation factor.
Old 05-30-2016, 06:26 AM
  #1665  
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Hi Vince,

I generally use the stock setting of 20 for the compensation factor. On the higher power setups, I might increase it a little bit to 22 to 24. Depends a lot on batteries used, flight time, and ambient temp. I've not adjusted it (or my throttle curve) very much during my testing phase, as it is easier to discern differences in motors / props if I leave the Throttle Tech and throttle curve unchanged.

Originally Posted by vbortone
Hi Dave,

Thanks for all that good information. I am setting up one V4 now. Are you using the Throttle Tech? If yes, what is your settings recommendations for compensation factor.
Old 05-30-2016, 06:37 AM
  #1666  
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Hey Dave,

Can you explain for people what the various motor options that you have been testing are?

I don't think anyone knows what the 650-88, the 600-88, and the 600-97 are.

Also, how do each of these motors work with the new Falcon 23" props, and which motor works the best?

Brenner ...
Old 05-30-2016, 04:16 PM
  #1667  
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Hi Brenner

I have a V4, and received replacement bearings from the dealer I purchased from - Jason Arnold in Australia. The drive has not been run.

1. The replacement bearings are identical part number (S6900RS, yellow seals) to those in the drive. Should I still go ahead and replace them?

2. The pinion gear rotates freely on the collet even with the bolt done up - am I missing something?

3. Any suggestions for Spin 99 ESC settings (Kontronik pyro 600-09).

Thank you
Andrew

Last edited by andypnz; 05-30-2016 at 06:56 PM.
Old 05-30-2016, 05:22 PM
  #1668  
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Thanks Brenner. I was just curious if you used 2 of the K145 with each K143 for the mount. Seem like that would be the best way for it to work. Am i correct?
Old 05-30-2016, 07:02 PM
  #1669  
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Originally Posted by andypnz
Hi Brenner

I have a V4, and received replacement bearings from the dealer I purchased from - Jason Arnold in Australia. The drive has not been run.

1. The replacement bearings are identical part number (S6900RS, yellow seals) to those in the drive. Should I still go ahead and replace them?

2. The pinion gear bolt was not done up (no Loctite, not even hand tight). Is this correct? Should I do anything different on re-assembly?

3. Any suggestions for Spin 99 ESC settings (Kontronik pyro 600-09).

Thank you
Andrew
Hey Andrew,

Yes, you should still replace the bearings. The replacement bearings have ceramic balls, and a polymer cage, which make them suitable for high speed running.

The pinion gear bolt is loose because you will not be able to install the Drive in your plane if the Drive remains attached to the motor. Please reference the installation instructions in the manual for more details.

Do not use Loctite on the pinion gear bolt. If you do this, you will not be able to reinstall your Drive onto the motor shaft.

The Spin 99 ESC will not work with the 600-09 motor because it is a 14 pole motor. Do not use this ESC. You will need to use a Jeti Mezon ESC with this motor.

The settings for the Jeti Mezon are as follows:

Poles = 14 for Pyro 600-09, 10 for Pyro 650-83
Timing = 24 degrees
PWM frequency = 16khz
Acceleration = Normal, 1 second
Low Throttle Pulse Width = Auto
High Throttle Pulse Width = 2.05ms
Brake = 30% with 1 second on time

Brenner ...
Old 05-30-2016, 07:05 PM
  #1670  
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Originally Posted by rgreen24
Thanks Brenner. I was just curious if you used 2 of the K145 with each K143 for the mount. Seem like that would be the best way for it to work. Am i correct?
Hey Robert,

You will need one of each grommet type to make a "grommet assembly", which means that you will need five of each type to upgrade your installation.

Brenner ..
Old 05-30-2016, 10:03 PM
  #1671  
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"The Spin 99 ESC will not work with the 600-09 motor because it is a 14 pole motor. Do not use this ESC. You will need to use a Jeti Mezon ESC with this motor."

Please may I ask why not, re the spin 99? If it's the number of poles, I'd just add that the 99 is quite happy with the 20-pole Pletty Advance 30-10, and as far as I know, with the 28-pole Hackers.
Old 05-31-2016, 05:19 AM
  #1672  
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Let me say, that Brenner told me that they hadn't tested it with the Spin 99, because of the difference in Poles and was concerned about it. I decided to give it a try and used a brand new Spin 99 I had laying around because I didn't want to buy a new ESC. And it didn't last through the first flight and became a great smoke system. I now have a very nice charcoal smell on the inside of my new plane and a Mezon. If you want to risk it, you can be another data point. :-)
Old 05-31-2016, 06:42 AM
  #1673  
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As an added note: You will need to use the white plastic standoffs that came with the original mounting grommets. These insert through the middle of the grommet assembly and are critical to the mounting functionality.

I'm just finding time to mount my V4 drive now. At first I didn't believe it would fit on a V3 mount equipped plane, but then realized that Brenner solved the compatibility problem in a neat way: the V4 motor mount plate mounts to the backside of the "firewall". (the V3 motor mounted in front of the firewall)
Old 05-31-2016, 10:33 PM
  #1674  
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Hi Brenner

I have replaced the main bearings in the V4. I was surprised how 'loose' the fit is - I machined up an inserting tool to press on the outer race, and the bearings were really just inserted by hand using this. Yes, they are all the way home (recess visible above the bearings) - and I had a good press with my insertion tool using an arbor press to confirm.

When I put the gearcase/collet on the motor shaft, and torque the pinion gear bolt to 3Nm, the gear case becomes difficult to turn. Loosen the bolt, and it turns freely. Everything is assembled as per page 14 of the instructions. Bearings are all the way home.

Thoughts?

Thanks
Andrew

Last edited by andypnz; 05-31-2016 at 10:38 PM.
Old 06-01-2016, 11:26 AM
  #1675  
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Hey Andy,

The bearings should not get difficult to turn when you tighten the pinion gear bolt. If this happens then the bearing inner races are getting preloaded, probably due to the inner race protruding up too far on one or both of the bearings.

If this happens, take the bearings out, flip one of the bearings 180 degrees, and reassemble the into the gearcase. This will change the bias of the inner races, which should solve the problem.

Then you need to make sure that the gearcase doesn't become difficult to turn when you bolt the rear hub onto the front face with the six cap screws. If this happens, then the problem is still there, and we might need to send you replacement bearings.

Whatever you do, do not fly the Drive if the unit tightens when you assemble the front hub, or tighten the pinion gear bolt. The Drive should always rotate freely.

Brenner ...

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