didiwatt

My Feedback: (38)

I am new to electric helicoptors and I am completely confused. I have new non-ccpm model. Aon motor, Phoenix 35 amp speed controller, all metal head assembly, heli-up tail rotor, etc, etc. Radio is a Futab 9C with a pcm receiver. All first rate stuff.

I use the governor setting on the Phoenix speed controller.

When the heli is flying, it flies great. My problem is that I will be flying straight and level and the heli will power down by itself and drop straight down. I have no high throttle control. Happens so fast I can't tell if the motor is still running. I think it is as it strips the main gear every time and usually damages the tail belt, even though I flip the throttle cut switch as fast as I can after it hits the ground. Before that I try full throttle, then cut throttle all the way back and then all the way forward to get it to spool up but no go.

Has happen 4 times with mostly disasterous results, depending on the altitude. Broken c/f main blade, stripped mail gear, broken landing gear, etc. You know the story.

First I thought it may be going into fail safe mode so I deactivated that. Then I thought it had to be the speed controller, so I purchased a new Phoenix 35. Then I tried low governor mode versus high governor mode. I think it happen once on non-governor mode. Each time resulting in the same result. Very frustrating. Only thing left to change out is the receiver but I can't see where it would be the problem. Heli does not go crazy, just drops straight down. Yesterday it happen on the first flight after repair. Last time I had maybe 20 to 30 flights before it happen. Probably have $300 is broken parts so far.

Any of you e-heli guru's have any suggestions?

Perplexed in Wally World!

reiffron

is there a low voltage cut off on the esc? can it be set to a soft stop instead of hard stop? also wondering if its stripping the main gear in flight?

HeliHacker

I had the same thing happen to me. I normally use a Kontroniks 40-6-18 driving a Neu 1105/3y. My Kontronics developed a problem and I wanted to keep flying while I sent it in for warranty evaluation. So I bought a Phoenix 35 as a spare controller to use until my Kontroniks is returned. I started to hover and within a few minutes the ESC just shut down - not slow like it was programmed, but immediate. I checked and cleaned all connections, put on a fresh battery, made sure the battery voltage was programmed correctly, but the unit kept shutting down. I took it back to the local hobby shop thinking it was a defective unit. I then put a Phoenix 25 on just to see what would happen. The same think occurred but at a higher rate of frequency. I had overcurrent protection disabled, but it still shut down. My conclusion is the ESC overheats and shuts down. You would think the Phoenix 35 should be adequate, but it does not appear to be. I recommend you bite the bullet and get a Kontroniks - you won't have an issue with it.

didiwatt

My Feedback: (38)

Heli-Hacker:
I think you may be right. I have tried two Phoenix 35's and a Phoenix 25. You never know when it is going to occur and hope it does not. I customized the cut-off voltage to 8volts on a 3 cell pack to make sure it was not the low voltage shut-off. I also had the overcurrent protection off. I tried everything and I am pretty sure that just the ESC shuts down and the heli drops like a rock. Is the Kontronics completely progamable like the Phoenix? I really like the governor mode but am willing to try anything at this point. Funny there has not been similar problems reported.
Paul

Traveler

Hey Paul,

You could be drawing too much current from the BEC with your PCM-setup. I think I've read in some previous threads here that the BEC on the Phoenix ESC's has a relatively low current-rating. Do you still have cyclic and collective control when this happens? Try going for a seperate BEC or a completely different ESC with a few more amps of BEC current-rating.


Grtz,

Traveller

VinceHerman

I bet it is an overloaded BEC.
I plan on getting a separate BEC to remove this possibility.

mdavies31

Had the same problem with my T-Rex with a CC Phoenix 25 just yesterday. I called Castle Creations and they confirmed that 4 servos and a gyro is to much for the BEC.
Good news is the lastest Phoenix 25 now has a duel BEC, they said sent my in and they will upgrade it for $15.00.

didiwatt

My Feedback: (38)

Traveler:
I run Phoenix 25's with a PCM set-up on cars and airplanes and have never had this happen yet I think you and Vince are right.

To answer Vince's question about having control of flight surfaces - I really don't know. When it happens I am so busy with the throttle stick. The heli comes straight down so I have not tried the flight surfaces for fear that it may land at an angle and do more damage.

I have ordered the Kontronic control... Yikes!!!!! $169.00!!!! However, it will be more than worth it in damaged parts if it works. I only have PCM receivers that will fit in this heli so it was one or the other and I went the Kontronic.... Will let you guys know...

If it does, I will be extremely upset with Phoenix as there is no warnings that the BEC could be overloaded with a PCM system.
Paul

didiwatt

My Feedback: (38)

mdavies31:
I will e-mail Castle Creations and see if I get the same answer and let you know.
Paul

HeliHacker

The Kontroniks does not allow programming individual settings. There are about 6 modes of which mode 4 is heli mode. Heli mode automatically includes very soft start, a constant speed compensation so no governor is needed, and very slow shut down in the event of overheating or low lipo. One caution, if when flying you accidentally throttle low enough to shut down, you cannot restart fast enough because of the soft start. It is going to head down like you experienced on the Phoenix. The ESC "reads" the motor parameters every time you start for the first time after power-up, so some recommend setting a throttle idle mode with zero pitch so you can run the motor up to full speed then throttle down and restart in normal idle. I think you will find you will get more out of your motor with the Kontroniks. There is supposed to be programming software available with an interface cable to the ESC, but I haven't been able to find it available yet. With the software you are supposed to be able to custom program the ESC parameters.

The Phoenix BEC causing the shutdown does sound plausible.

didiwatt

My Feedback: (38)

Heli-Hacker:
Got my Jazz controller and reading the instructions. The book says that computor programming software is availble. It is called CPS-Pro and order it by number 9650. Just for your info. Will advise latter if this resolves problem
Paul

jh4db536

My Feedback: (2)

the BEC on the phoenix is overloaded because you are using 4 micro servos + a gyro with a 3S lipo. it's BARELY rated for ONLY 4 Mservos at those voltages. try a seperate BEC (UBEC or dimension engineering or use a seperate RX battery like i do). the weight penalty is worth the piece of mind that it wont fail you. i am referring to the 3.0amp bec in the newer 25+ and older 45+ phoenix esc. if you have the 2.0 then it's rated even LOWER.

also use insensitive current limiting and high governor or even fixed.

i see you have a kontronik ESC. that has a switching BEC (has MUCH higher limits than the less efficient bec design of phoenix) i believe which is why it comes with a ferrite ring standard to control the emissions. you shouldnt have a problem with that but just in case you do.

didiwatt

My Feedback: (38)

Well, I have installed the Kontronic controller and have 4 flights so far with no problems. The instructions leave much to be desired. I have searched all threads and have found none devoted to setting up the Jazz. Bummer....

No word from Castle Creations yet............
Paul

ptgarcia

My Feedback: (36)

I'm about to buy a brushless motor and controller for my new T-Rex CCPM. I was going to get the Phoenix 35, but now I'm not so sure. My setup will be:

Mega or Align brushless
Hites HS-56 or Futaba S3108 servos
Futaba 156 receiver.
Thunder Power Lipo

Will the Phoenix 35 be okay with this setup? I really don't want to spend $160+ for a controller. Thanks!

didiwatt

My Feedback: (38)

Well, I hope Castle Creations will get back to me by Monday and I will let you know what they say. Maybe you will be ok with a non PCM receiver.

ptgarcia

My Feedback: (36)

Okay, I'll look for your update. Thanks Paul.

thecheatscalc

35A should be fine.... go with the align (420LF) brushless, I fly with 25A easy, and I use the cheap chinese li-polys too.

everysilver

My Feedback: (11)

Could someone tell me if this one would be okay for a mega 16/15/3 or an Astro 020 and 3s 2000 lipos? That Jazz is $170 after all. If I need to spend the money I will, instead of having a bunch of problems down the road. Just looking for alternatives to $170 plus the cost of the motor. Preciate it.



Kontronik Jazz 40-6-18 Brushless ESC

everysilver

My Feedback: (11)

Sorry, I meant this one!!! ----- Kontronik Smile 45-6-12 Brushless ESC 45A

HeliHacker

I will just mention I was doing more reading on other forums about Kontroniks and Castle Creations. There is no doubt the Kontroniks is not well documented, but when you get it working the way you want, it works flawless. On the other hand, I saw many more references to Castle Creations 25s and 35s cutting out as is mentioned here. It could very well be a BEC problem which causes the unit to overheat and shut down, but the difference in price between CC and Kontroniks is eliminated after buying a separate BEC and a crash or two.

Norrmannen

Doesn't anybody wonder what battery he's using, I for one do, so, what kinda battery are you using ?

HeliHacker

I was reading the 450TH motor review at Trextuning and there was this comment:

"One notable issue which can be seen in the carbon blade test during the full pitch / throttle test and has occurred on numerous occasions during flight (approximately twice per flight) should also be mentioned. This is a problem I believe with the Castle creations speed controller in that it appears to be losing timing with the motor during certain flight conditions, which results in a blip in the power and the motor shutting down momentarily. This can be quite worrying when it happens as it looks like a glitch."

didiwatt

My Feedback: (38)

The battery I am using is the Thunder Power 2100. Also use the new TP2000 lights. 3-cells.

Got an e-mail for Castle Creations yesterday, they said the problem must be bad servo or sticky linkage causing a high drain.

Since I have been battling this problem for a few months, replacing gryro's, servos (HS-55/56), speed controllers(3- all Castle Creations), connectors, all lots of crash parts, this is not the problem. Only thing I did not do was to use a non PCM receiver as I did not have one small enough to fit but I did change to another PCM receiver.

I e-mailed Castle Creations back and specifically asked if the P-35 controller had sufficient power to run 4 servos, 401 Gyro, and a Futaba PCM receiver. My question should require a yes or no answer but you never know. The first response was not very informative which is unusual with them. I have a problem with one of their Mamba systems on a Futaba PCM system and they were very helpfull. Required me to send in the controller and it was updated at n/c.

Have a dozen or so flight on the new Jazz controller with no problems so far. Much much smoother than the P-35.

Will advise what CC has to say.
Paul

didiwatt

My Feedback: (38)

Receved word from Castle Creations today:

"The BEC on the 35 should be able to handle your servo load without much flail unless you have a servo going bad or sticky linkage. Have you disabled Current Limiting? If not do so as it will probably resolve this issue for you. Collective pitch helis can generate incredible transient current spikes which won't hurt anything but can trip current limiting."

Moot point since I am running the Kontronic Jazz now and I am afraid to try the P-35 just to see if it works on my set-up. Thought it might help someone who is using the P-35.

Thanks you guys for the help on this.
Paul

ptgarcia

My Feedback: (36)

Paul,

I take it you had not disabled "current limiting" then?