RAPPTOR

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{ He has been working on a order from a foreign manufacturer for "600" units.} THIS IS A GOOD THING...Product goeing the "other way" over seas...BY STUFF WITH USA ZIP CODES...

George Miller

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Absolutely. You could even do it for selling them to the public as far as I am concerned. I'm retired now, but would still like to see my aircraft out there.

This stuff was all sold to "Iron Bay" many years ago and he is doing nothing but sitting on them. That was not what I expected when I sold to him(the highest bidder for the business). I have had many discussions with him about doing this. But no results.

If someone else decided to produce this aircraft as a kit, It would serve "Iron Bay" right.

With all the e-mails I still get about my kits, I would think if you just put it on RCU, you would be doing just like this guy who just had one on there. "Beating them off with a stick"

RAPPTOR

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I was able to make a deal with kerry. Man, am i happy.. THANK YOU MR, MILLER !!! Im gonna "pimp" this baby out.. I will post pics.of build..{after molds}.Canopy will be a ,little pain..but it just takes time.. I have a friend who will 'CNC' all formers and any other metal parts needed.. . I will contact, SPRING AIR about the gear..Ill send you a pic. of the gear i made for my F-22.. T-38 is almost ready to pull molds.. Its just how much detail i want to put on it.. panel lines, rivits, hatch flanges,...ect.. BYRON MIG MODS..

buckarooo

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LOGED ON! I am so happy to find this thread. George it is great to see you back in R/C action. The last time we corresponded you were heavy into the trains with your son, hope you had some fun with that. You helped me along with fabricating the top rear portion of the Phantom fuse as I too have the early version, although mine does have the sparrow troughs and the intake splitters. I really cant remember what year I bought it from you but after having it half built and hanging in the rafters the rear top piece was lost in a move, so I ordered a whole new kit so yes I have two of these now. I have been working on the one piece version since.

I am also converting mine to electric. I plan on using the Byron fan. I currently have two different motors to test with, a Hacker A-50 10l Turnado @ 580kv for 12s and a Scorpion 4035-@ 630kv for 10-11 s I may also test the Turnigy T600 @ 880kv for 8s. I have been busy designing the mounting system for the Byron. My design requires longer shafts which I purchased from Stock drive products. http://www.sdp-si.com/ I also need some aluminum parts machined and thats where I am at now. Of course work is always getting in the way of my modeling but I will post my results here when I have something significant to share.

Some of my thoughts on the Byron power system: Don't worry about inlet ducting! Its not needed and will only reduce static thrust for takeoff. The key to the Byron is the big fat rounded intake lip. It will suck air from anywhere it can get it including strategically placed openings like nose gears or blow doors and the like. Keep the fuse. main intake lips nicely rounded and use simple deflectors inside the fuse. to smooth air over blunt surfaces such as the batteries. As far as top end or higher eflux think about what we are doing here. We are flying large scale aircraft, not sport jets. A 1/10th scale Miller F-4 doing a buck twenty is going to give awesome scale flight and that 6" fan will provide the dynamic thrust to pull good vertical. Remember the original Byron fan was designed around a 65cc side exhaust slimer. Look where we are at now with electric! If you have any doubts about the Byrons capability's check out George's T-38 here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUKaPAx1_mQ Its all about the airframe. Most of Byrons jets were heavy and dragy . The Talon is sleek and even with those small intakes it barely used the blow-in doors and it was a rocket. I only wish we had more of George's designs here today. To bad iron bay cant see this.

To me its all good. Like Marve Levy used to tell us during the Bill's glory years "where would you rather be than right here, right now" It is a great time to be a jet modeler. Its so much better than the GDF days The last time I checked Iron Bay is still selling the Fan units. this was a while ago but They told me they still make them in large lots because of a contract they have using them for underwater sleds??? They are so hit and miss though. I recently tried ordering a canopy for the Phantom but gave up after repeated emails. This was after an early answer that said they had one. My advice with them is to just keep trying.

George its great to see you enjoying R/C again You were a great pioneer. I'll do my best to do my Phantom proud. Good luck to all the other Phantom flyers here. And dionysusbacchus thanks for this great thread.

Dean

George Miller

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Hi Dean,

Nice to hear from you again.

My son has pretty much taken over the train layout. Now that it is finished, there isn't much to do with it anymore and I was getting bored and decided to go back to aircraft.

There is no doubt the electric Byron fan will power this F-4 beyond expectations. When testing different motors in it, I think I would try to stay somewhere around the 20 to 22 thousand RPM. Just not sure how many RPM's over that the Byron impeller can handle. I have never heard from anyone who is using or testing this unit electric. It was perfect conditions when I got 20 grand out of my Byron with a Rossi .90 and I never had a need for more power.

On the start of the second page of this thread is a referral to a link that will take you to my new electric F-4 if you have not seen it. I am just thrilled to pieces with this latest design. We have flown the hell out of the prototype and it is "Bad to the Bone". Two are being painted now and as soon as I get it finished, I will post it here. My decal man is holding me up right now.

RAPPTOR

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F-22 FIRST TIME AROUND.. AND OTHER GLASS PROJECTS I FOOL WITH...

George Miller

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GREAT WORK, ABSOLUTELY OUTSTANDING.

I do not know your age, but you should go into business and start putting some of these kits that are not available back on the market.

I am curious, are you using isophelic resin or epoxy?

RAPPTOR

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Thank you .. Im 60 years old,, retired, In R/C for 35 years .. [resin} My first choice is VINLYESTER. EPOXY gets soft and prints through in FL. temps.. I also use a POLYESTER fomulated for FL weather. I have built race cars all my life. Gave shop to my sons now. I do this for fun now.. I did this car myself.Chassie,GLASS BODY,welding{tig}.bent all cage bars and chassis rails,aluinum,windows,wiring,ect. Runs 8.25, 1/4 mile with this little motor.{498c C/I } ..runs 7.40 with big motor,, 655 /C/I.. I value your opinion greatly. BE SAFE ,,HAVE FUN,,

buckarooo

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Nice work RAPPTOR. Sounds like you are winning life. I love to see men enjoying their toys.

I thought I would pass on some info on the electric retracts I am going to use on my big scale birds. They are made by RC LANDER and I buy them from Rocky Law at Jet Tech in China. They are a great company to do business with. Rocky is one of the best jet pilots in China and his company imports many fine quality fiberglass scale kits. They are also all fine scale builders. I wanted to get away from the hassles of air gear systems for my scale planes but as you may know there are not many choices for airframes in our weight range. The E-flite 120's are a joke. My buddy bought a set when they first came out and they could not lift the gear with the weight of a Robart strut attached. I talked to Rocky a few times and they have good luck with the RC Landers. They are rated for over 16lb planes. I have two sets, one for a Regal Eagle which is the test bed for the electric Byron and another for a hero eagle twin I am building. The transactions from Jet-Tech in China were very smooth and I received my gear in a little over a week. I have not flown either set yet though so I can not vouch for their tactical operation however they appear to be well built with steel housings and strong motors operating the jackscrews. They have a rated input of 4.8 to 6v but I fly with A123 flight packs which come hot of a charge at around 7.3v so I had Rocky check check with Lander and the extra voltage will not bother them. They run a little faster but they have over current protection to prevent damage from a stall or jam. I bought my 3 gear sets with the oleo struts which are pretty sweet themselves, all for around $185 each set to my door, which I thought was a good buy. I'll be happy to bag all my old air systems for our clubs auction and wont miss them a bit. Here's a link to Jet-Tech and the gear. If you get a chance talk to Rocky and his bud's they are a good bunch of modelers. http://www.jettechmodels.com/servlet...l-Metal/Detail

George Miller

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I have been using Isophelic resin ever since it came on the market. Never seen a resin that is as strong as this one. And it is almost as thin as water so you get good penetration without a heavy coat of resin. Where I used to use 6 and 9 ounce cloth, I now use 3 and 6 ounce cloth. It is just that rigid. A fuselage that would come out at a pound and a half, now comes out at a pound. Really great stuff. Not cheap, but well worth it. Try it - you will throw rocks at your polyester.

Here is a photo of project of mine a while back. I always referred to it as: "Just your average Ski Boat" "Doesn't everyone have a 150 MPH ski boat" And yes, I built it. Originally I started out with a 502 Pontiac, but it kept blowing head gaskets so I went to 480 big block Chevy.

And this was my tow vehicle. Again. I started with a $100.00 total wreck of a 35 Ford and built from there.

George Miller

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It seems to me that these "Lander" people really have their act together. I am using their 90mm 1900KV fans and they are awesome. You can run them flat out for 7 minutes and when landing, the fan is barely warm, the ESC is the same and so are the batteries. You get 3100 grams of thrust on 6 cells. And those retracts with those struts, you can't beat that deal with a stick.

RAPPTOR

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WOW!! In the "good old days" ,,YOU did THINGS yourself.. It did not come in a box and you put it together..Now we throw things away because you cant fix it or it is cheaper to buy a new one..{ RESIN} - Isophelic resin - Thanks for tip on resin..I will get a quart today. I will do some test patches.. looks to be a, tooling resin, and for high performace stuff.. Im all for lighter parts.. I use 10 oz .. glass, plain weave. Looks like it has a good price to.. {FANS} What do you like in a, 123MM fan, for you F-4?? {BIG ONE} Looking at puting a BYRON {LIKE ON 10S} in it .. I want to fly scale speed. XPS DYNAMAX is my next choice.. That set up likes lots of battery,heavy!!.

argyris

Mr George what a beutifull work!!All these aircrafts are awesome ,and all this back in 80's!!!Very intresting the information about isophelic resin .I will try my molds also with isophelic.In one photo i can see one opel gt, is it yours?I m also Opel gt owner!
Some photos from me.

http://www.youtube.com/user/ARGYPILATUS?feature=mhee

George Miller

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Yes I had a Opel Gt for many years. I no longer have it. It is a long sad story of what happen to it. I believe it probably still exist though.

As you can see in the photos I seriously customized it. I flared the fenders and the front flare comes around the under the nose as a front spoiler. I widened the track with spacers on the front and used these offset deep mags on the rear. I also added a spoiler to the rear. All work was in steel. I loved this Opel and everywhere I went people would ask me what it was. These modifications really changed it's looks. It made it look more like a small Corvette than a Opel GT. I do not know if you know this, but Opel was imported by GM and believe it or not, GM designed their one model of Corvette after it. So the Corvette was a copy of the Opel instead of the other way around like most think.

I see you fly a P-80. One of the hardest jets to fly. I love them too and had one a long time ago.

George Miller

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To me that is one of the big problems with large electric fans. Not only do they require a huge battery, but they also only run for about 3 minutes. And they cost a arm and a leg.

That is the reason I re-designed a F-4 around the 90mm fan. You can get the "Lander 90mm" for $140.00 from Park RC, use a 100 AMP ESC, and a 6 cell 6000 mah battery. Run for about 7 minutes with a little throttle management. Sure it is a smaller aircraft and won't make the "It must be big" guys happy, but done up with some nice detail, it doesn't look like a EDF ARF.

I know nothing about the conversion of the Byron to electric, but imagine that it also will require a serious amount of battery and a serious ESC. But if I was going back to that size, I think I would go in the direction of the Byron if they are truly still available. Needless to say, I have very little faith in Iron Bay.

RAPPTOR

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YEP.. WE WERE KOOL..LOL. I looked at the resin today. supplier sad i need to add wax to get it to cure.,,Then sand it for next lay up.. Can you tell me manufacture and part number you are useing?? There is a an infustion vertion that is thinner .. thanks

George Miller

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I do not know about the different kinds per se. I know in my area there are chain stores called "TAP Plastics" that sell the resin.

However I do not get it there. I deal with a fiberglass fabricating shop that has a chopper gun. They shoot my plugs to make my molds.

And they also use Isophelic resin for special applications. They sell me the resin for their cost which is less than half of what it cost in the re-tail store.

As for it being any specific kind of Isophelic, I really don't know. Never cared enough to find out. LOL. I just know it is about the consistency of water and cures to a very strong and ridged condition.

What is this supplier talking about when he says it needs wax to cure? If he means it is a bonding resin and will not fully cure, that is correct. But you don't want it to fully cure anyway. Any resin you buy that will fully cure has wax in it and will not work for laying up a fuselage where you are applying a couple coats or more of cloth. Although you think you are making it out of layers of cloth, that wax is separating the layers and you are making a very weak fuselage. Even if you sand it, there is still wax in the resin. And who in the hell wants to sand every layer before applying the next. I get a feeling your supplier doesn't know what he is talking about or know how to lay up fiberglass parts.

A bonding resin will cure to a state where when you touch it, your finger sticks to it, but when you lift your finger, it is not on your finger. Follow?

I also do not know how you are laying up fuselages.

Here is my procedure for laying up fuselage using anything but junky Epoxy:

l. First prepare your mold for layup. Many coats of mold release wax. Now if your mold is pretty green you will still have to apply a coat of PVA mold release agent. Someone like me back in the kit business and laying up many many fuselages out of the mold, there comes a time when you no longer need PVA. Just a new coat of wax.

2. Brush in a even thin coat of resin and let it cure to this bonding condition that it cures to.

3. Now lay in your lightest weight of cloth you have chosen. Notice how easy this is to do when this layer of cloth sticks to this layer of resin you have in the mold. Just start in the middle and work your way out. It is now stuck to that resin.

4. Brush in another layer of this resin and let it cure like the first one. Remember these are thin coats of resin. Be sure and mop out any excess resin.

5. Now if you have any areas where you feel you are going to need a third layer of cloth, cut some strips and do it now. Say around the intakes, where the hatch will be, where doors will be.

6. Brush some more resin on these strips. Let cure.

7. Now take your second layer of cloth and stick it in your molds. You will find it lays down easier than the first.

8. Apply another coat of resin and let it cure.

9. Now there is a certain time when the resin is cured just right and you can trim the edges of your fuselage with a box knife. Usually it is about a hour after it has cured. Ya got to hit this time right. If you wait until later it will be much harder to trim your fuselage to your mold.

11. After you have this fuselage trimmed, you now add a coat of PVA mold release to the fuselage. This will seal the air from the fuselage and turn this bonding resin into curing resin.

12. I let my fuselage sit in the molds for about a week and really cure. Then before taking them out of the molds, I use about 36 grit sandpaper and sand the seaming areas while it is being held by the molds. I also will sand any rough spots I have in the fuselage.

13. Now drag out the hose and wash all the PVA off the fuselage and start getting into the edges of the fuselage and letting the water get to the PVA in the mold. Voila you have a fiberglass fuselage.

14. For seaming, I use good masking tape to align and tape the two halves together, a small brush on the end of a stick, and fiberglass 1" wide seaming cloth. Once I have them taped together, I use that brush on a stick and apply a coat of resin and let it cure. Now the seaming cloth will stick where you want it. Stick it and add that final coat of resin and the PVA again when it cures.

Three layers of resin, two layers of cloth. Just guessing, but you will probably use too heavy of cloth your first couple of times. You are probably used to different resins. For my size YF-22 I would use two layers of 6 ounce cloth. Check it out after it is completely seamed and cured for a couple of weeks. If it isn't strong enough for you, try a coat of 9 ounce with your 6 ounce. Don't let the thinness fool you.

And the temperature where you live will have a great effect on the amount of hardener you use in your resin.

That is how I did and do it.

RAPPTOR

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Thanks.. Ill try that.I knew about PVA as a seal coat..Just never did it,, scared...LOL Thanks .. Great info on layup..JUST FINIISHED THIS TODAY..10 point cage in a full dressed street car..Ajustable seat track took 14 hours,bottom and back support..

Johng

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I have a T-38 that I bought as a used slimer that I am converting to electric. I'm trying to keep it light with a hacker/dynamax combo on 10s. It had a good bit of oil in it so it sat for months with kitty litter in the belly. The elevator servo was glued to a plate on the inside rear fuse. It peeled right off by hand, ditn't need to pry with a screwdriver or anything. Any tips on build or flying the -38 George?

I too have been disappointed by Iron Bay. Since the plane came to me with an Iron Bay manual, I figured they might support it. But no answer to my email.

Ralph! If you get inlet ducts or canopy transparencies done, let me know. I could be a customer.

Johng

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Duplicate

George Miller

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It looks pretty good to me. I am unable to get a larger view of the photo you posted. Is this oil contamination confined to the rear area from the glow set up?

I am assuming you mean it has a lot of the oil from the glow fuel in it. I think I might try acetone to wash out any oil that has contaminated it. And if you were able to peel that wood the servo was attached to, I would be checking any other wood in there that has been soaked like that. It will definitely not be any good now.

Once you have removed any wood like that, I would go to Ambroid glue for gluing any wood back to this contaminated T-38.

Ambroid is a acetone based glue and will actually etch itself into fiberglass. Use the pre-glue method: apply Ambroid, stick the pieces together, then separate them and let the glue dry. Then apply Ambroid again and glue them together.

Once you have done this and it has dried to 24 hours, I would try to pry it apart again to make sure everything is clear again.

Not much to really tell you about flying tips for the T-38. It is a excellent flying aircraft and don't let those small wings fool you. There is a whole lot of lift in that fuselage. Just keep it light and do not add weight to this aircraft by trying to put intake ducting in it. That is a wast of time and weight.

If you go to the top of the second page of this thread, there is a post there that will take you to my current model projects. If you go to the bottom of that link you can click on "Back to George Miller page" and that will take you to my video catalog. There you can go the section about the T-38 and it will show you more about it and also show it flying.

RC_Pattern_Flyer

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I guess all the off topic chatter ran off the original build thread? Thats disappointing.

C

George Miller

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Why is that?

Is there anything about the building of this F-4 that you want to ask about? More than happy to accomodate you along with the other chatter that modelers have when they get together.

George Miller

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I promised I would get photos to you when I finished painting my new F-4. Well here it is.

I have just finished it. But keep in mind that I have 6 flights on this prototype before finishing it. A lot of changes and modifications went in it to get to this stage.

And this is #4. #1 was lost to a defective Hi-Max fan unit, #2 is being finished by John as we speak, and I am working on #3.

George Miller

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Here are some shots of the instillation. I have gone to a 5800mah 6 cell battery, due to only getting about 4 minutes out of the 5000mah at full throttle. Now with some throttle management, I should be good for around 7 minutes.

A separate BEC is a must. The ESC is a Castle 120 and is in the bump on the duct tube. "Only place to put a ESC in a EDF." The electric retracts are on their channel and the nose wheel doors are on the flap channel.

The aircraft weighs 7 lbs 4 oz.

Although I made the drop tanks for this aircraft, it will be a while before I try flying with them. From previous experience I know they are a hand full. But the aircraft doesn't even know the Sparrows and Sidewinders are there.