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EDF Airliner build thread

Old 02-28-2006, 10:55 PM
  #26  
EDFmodel
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

Sedar

Well done. Chrome nice idea -you had me wondering for a second.

Frontier coming along.

Ian.
Old 02-28-2006, 10:57 PM
  #27  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

Ian,

About the Frontier decals:

One little detail caught my attention. The port holes on the doors are still gray. Do you not want to convert those to black?

Serdar
Old 02-28-2006, 11:31 PM
  #28  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

Serdar

A thought -the rear wheels are 2" . You might want to think about replacing them with 1 3/4" wheels. The extra 1/4" will help in lowering the amount of space required to house wheel in retract bay. Smaller wheels will work with hard runway.

If you do this -do not forget to lower nose wheel leg by 1/4". You want the wing root profile angle of incidence at 1 degree.

Port holes in doors are grey because light refraction on thicker glass in door than windows :-)

Ian.

Old 03-01-2006, 12:08 AM
  #29  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

Thanks for the tips on wheels Ian. One quick question: Measuring from the fuselage bottom and wing bottom surfaces to ground respectively, what should be the height of the nose and main gears so that the 1 degree incidence angle can be obtained (using the wheels that come in the kit)? I will recalculate the same for 1 3/4 wheels.

Serdar
Old 03-03-2006, 12:57 AM
  #30  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

Hello Serdar

You have asked a rather difficult question in the sense that whatever measurement I give you, you will use to determine the wheel bay positions. You are planning retracts in the model and so all your mounting distances are unknown at this stage.

Starting with the end in mind, you need to achieve

- engine cowling ground clearance (at its lowest point ) of 25 mm;

- nose wheel sitting just above nose U/C doors (scale likeness);

- wing root profile at 1 degree of incidence.

On this subject the ONLY way to measure the angle of wing incidence is at the final assembly inspection stage by placing the model on a flat surface known to be level. A spirit level is placed on the spine of the fuselage and the nose wheel adjusted to ensure the fuselage spine is level. Both wing root profiles are measured (and the wing tips looking for 3 degrees of washout). If the wing root is not 1 degree, then the nose wheel leg is adjusted in height. So you must have this flexibility in the nose wheel. A simple grub screw should do the trick. Failure to ensure the correct wing incidence angle is used can cause problems at the flying stage –you have been warned! If you do not have a wing incidence meter –purchase one. Vital piece of equipment.

To address your question (not that I like giving this sort of answer, because without preparing a drawing of your chosen retract mechanism, it is all measurements without a fixed reference line.)

Anyway, view the below photo of the rear U/C. The distance between the surface of the wing and the wheel surface touching the ground is 80 mm. The distance perpendicular in from the wing profile to the main U/C leg is 47 mm. The distance of the leg from the trailing edge is 116mm. Important. You can not adjust the this distance of 116mm to far. The models C of G (wrt one consideration) is set relative to the U/C position and altering this can cause problems at rotation. Consider the 80 mm as a minimum value (add say 7 mm for trimming later if you have the ability –just to be on safe side). The nose wheel leg length is adjusted just to clear the nose U/C doors and is best determined once the main rear mains are in position and the fuselage spine set at zero degrees on a flat surface.

With this basic information, you should be able to plan and design ahead.

The Frontier fuselage sides are complete now with improved decals.

Ian.
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Old 03-03-2006, 08:33 PM
  #31  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

I have recently updated the specs for the 301 version 3 (Alfa fans) at http://www.edfmodel.com/content.asp?PageID=12433.

The battery recommendation remain the same for version 2 or 3 (Graupner or Alfa).

They are

Batteries for the Hacker option - two 2s Lithium Polymer Poly-Quest 2100-3300mAh batteries wired in series.

What capacity battery?

This depends on your 301 model setup preference. Using a 3300 mAh battery will produce a flight time of around 15 minutes (with the model flown slow and scale like). However, this also produces a heavier model required to fly faster. A 2200 mAh size battery will provide a lighter model with flight times of around 10 minutes.

What brand of battery?

New generation of batteries are always appearing and it depends on whether you want the latest. There are two Polyquest selections and a Hyperion choice.

From the below options two 2s batteries are required to be joined in series.

Option #1 - Poly-Quest -latest development in batteries

Poly-Quest PQ-2100XP 20-30C Packs - 2100mAh, 42.0A Continuous
Poly-Quest PQ-2500XP 20-30C Packs - 2500mAh, 50.0A Continuous
Poly-Quest PQ-3300XP 20-30C Packs - 3300mAh, 66.0A Continuous

Option #2 - Poly-Quest -old design and still around (slightly cheaper)

Poly-Quest 2200mAh SLIM 12C-16C Lithium-Polymer
Poly-Quest 2200mAh SLIM 12C-16C Lithium-Polymer
Poly-Quest 3100mAh SLIM 12C-16C Lithium-Polymer

Option #3 - Hyperion -slightly higher discharge rates

HP-LVX2100 20-30C Packs - 2100mAh, 42.0A Continuous
HP-LVX2500 20-30C Packs - 2500mAh, 50.0A Continuous
HP-LVX3300 20-30C Packs - 3300mAh, 66.0A Continuous


Ian.

Old 03-03-2006, 08:43 PM
  #32  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

a) I have two brand new Hacker B40's motors still in their boxes and never been used that would suit the Graupner fan option. These are going cheap. Anyone wishing them please send PM.

b) The Graupner fan option is a good option for the 301 and it flies well. If you preference is to upgrade your 301 model to version 3 (Alfa fan) and you have not assembled the carbon flat pylon to the wing please let me know and I will send you new pylons. This is the only major difference in kit. Send PM. It is still possible even if the pylons have been assembled with extension elements.

Ian.
Old 03-03-2006, 08:55 PM
  #33  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

I have complete the tail for the Frontier (for anyone who has not seen Frontier -they use pictures of wild animals on the fin). It is quite effective.

The fin is EPS covered in white self adhesive vinyl. Decals are then applied. The forward curved fairing is not taped into place until the fuselage is complete. This ensures a good mating been fin and fuselage.

Ian.
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Old 03-05-2006, 02:33 AM
  #34  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

Once the the decals are done, a lot of the hard work is over and assembly begins.



More later on steps to get this far.

Ian.
Old 03-08-2006, 08:18 PM
  #35  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

Taking a step backwards a little and looking at how the fuselage is put together.

One common difficulty some modellers have had is in cutting the fuselage joiner strips straight and accurately. There is an easy way to do this. A Metre long steel rule, two pairs of hands and a sharp heavy knife. I think the problem starts with the assumption cutting a strip of plastic 10 mm wide, 900 mm long is too easy. However if the ruler moves on you or an attempt is made to cut the plastic with one pass of the knife, then the strip edges are not straight and one has to start again.

Having said that, use two pairs of hands, cut the plastic with two passes of the knife and with patience it is easy.

The next step is to glue the joiner strips together. Tape the 12 mm strip in a straight line to the table surface. Scratch a line down the center of the strip and with Zap or Flash CA (only) place a thin line of glue along the strip length. The scratch holds the CA glue in place. Use the nozzle provided with the glue. Progressively lay the strips one atop of the other and the job is done. One tip is to ensure the 10 and 12 mm strips are glued with the opposite natural curve of the plastic opposing.

There joiner strips are taped temporarily into position on the outside of one fuselage shell, fuselages joined and masking tape placed on the inside over the joiner strips. A strong fuselage shell is achieved.

How is everyone else getting on?

Ian.
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Old 03-08-2006, 11:22 PM
  #36  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

Ian's dead right, the worst mistake is thinking this is easy. It's not hard but care is needed.
It can be done without an extra pair of hands if you don't keep spares

Tape the 1m rule to your bench. Butt the plastic sheet up to it and tape the sheet's opposite edge to the bench along it's entire length, this ensures the plastic is straight to start with. I tape the two sides as well, we do not want it to move.
Lift the rule. Tape the rule to the sheet and bench at your first set of marks along it's entire length so noooo slipage can occur. With the plastic and rule all taped down, the cut isn't hard. Light pressure on the knife , 3 or 4 passes at least but take as many as you need, heavy pressure will distort the edge and tend to want to move the plastic. Move and tape the rule to the next set of marks and repeat.
This method works well, it does take meters of tape but there's no arguements about who let the rule slip, or who wasn't careful with the knife.
Oh yeah ... use a NEW blade it's worth it, a neat job here helps the fuse go together more easily , and the top strip is of course a 'finish' item that will be seen.
Old 03-09-2006, 10:05 AM
  #37  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

Ian, do you actually have strips reinforcing the inside AND outside of the fuse? Or, are the ones that appear to be on the outside just temporary?

Also, the joined fuse looks great. How did you get the brilliant white finish?

Lastly, snap a picture of the Hacker motors and post them here and I'll put them up for sale in the market area.

Michael
Old 03-09-2006, 03:47 PM
  #38  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

The outside ones are only temporary , but really necessary. Firstly to stop the combined strip falling out behind you as you insert it into the fuse half, and secondly to hold it straight as you go. Then to hold it nice and straight as you join the two fuse halves. I can't stress enough how important this is, the straightness of the whole deal. Important only cosmetically really, but this strip runs the entire length of the spine of the aircraft, any wiggles, waves, dips or hollows are very visible , the eye picks it up very easily.
That makes it sound hard, it's not really, just take it carefully. And if you get it wrong first go it's very easy to fix because it's just all tape, no glue at this stage, just strip it off and start again.

The shiny finish is part of Ian's design philosophy, just like an RC Car the fuse is either painted from the inside in the case of clear fuse parts, like the nose cone, the fuse halves are usually vac molded in white plastic although I think Ian can supply clear molded fuse halves for models of A/C that don't have basically white colour. Silver fuse's painted from the inside look really effective. The best part of this is that just like RC Cars this arrangement is very resistant to crash or hanger damage, you can't scratch the paint at all.

Excuse me for jumping in, it may save Ian some time for designing the next model
Old 03-09-2006, 04:48 PM
  #39  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

Hey Splitpin,

Thanks for the insight. So at the end of the build process, the top longitudinal strip comes off right? Now, is there some sort of smoothing or fillet process to make a perfectly smooth fuse or do we keep the seam (because it's so narrow as to be largely invisible)?

mk
Old 03-09-2006, 05:14 PM
  #40  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

Hi MK
No the top strip stays, if I understand your meaning.
We glued 3 strips together, starting from the bottom, a 12mm , a 4mm and a 10mm strip. making a H on it's side stip. The gaps in the H take the two fuse sides slipped in. And this is taped to the fuse inside, both sides. Any 'helping' tape on the outside is now removed. But our 10mm plastic strip showing on the outside covering the join of the 2 fuse halves stays, thats why my pedantic rave on how straight it must be.
Hope that helps and didn't further confuse anyone.
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Old 03-09-2006, 05:18 PM
  #41  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

Much clearer now.
Old 03-12-2006, 11:17 PM
  #42  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

My 301 contruction is in progress. I have not yet started assembling the fuselage, since I have been busy with the wings. I have changed the plan a little bit for a scale look while trying to maintain the flight characteristics of the finished model. There is one little exception: I have changed the elevator design and split the stabilizer from the elevators. This will change the controllability of the model (will make it less responsive).

Attached are photos for the contruction in progress:

The fin with the rudder
The stabilizer with the split elevators
The wing with a slighly modified aileron and extending split flaps
The pylon (balsa) which will house the servo arm and rails for the carbon fiber flap connection rods
I have also added the drawing of the extending flaps for those of you who might be interested. As you can see, when the flap extends, it will move away from the wing and also downwards. In a fully extended state, it will be 1 inch away from the wing and 15 degrees (from the wing bottom). It works as follows: The flaps are connected to two rods (carbon). Each rod goes through one of the slits on the pylon. When the servo arm pushes the flap, the rods make it move in the desired position. Well there is no other drawing to clarify but you got the idea...

Cheers
Serdar
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Old 03-13-2006, 04:23 AM
  #43  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

Serdar

Well done -looks seriously interesting. Can not wait to see the wing complete and flaps working.

(Just for the benefit of those who have not seen our kits, I should point out there is absolutely no balsa wood in the 301 kit at all. It is a material we do not use).

Ian.
Old 03-13-2006, 10:17 AM
  #44  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

Serdark,

Wow! That is amazing. Hey Ian, any new eye candy coming our way?

Michael
Old 03-13-2006, 10:24 AM
  #45  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

To re-iterate the point which Ian is making:

The Original EDF Models do NOT use balsa. The original kit is PERFECTLY fine to build and fly an outstanding aircraft.
In fact adding balsa to the model would make it heavier and unless you are experimenting like myself, I would NOT recommend it.

The 301 kit I am assembling is an experimental model, which is being assembled more like a display model, rather than a kit one would fly at the park on the weekend. Although, it will still be flight worthy, it is NOT as robust as the original 301kit; in a crash, the original kit would likely survive with a few scratches, but my plane will almost certainly disintegrate.

For those of you out there, please be warned: I am NOT recommending any changes to the kit. The original design is excellent and does not need any changes at all.

Serdar
Old 03-13-2006, 06:19 PM
  #46  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

Serdar

You are too modest.

Your increase in camber in the wings (flaps) will almost certainly enable your 301 to fly

-significantly slower (and I mean significantly)
-more scale like on landing (and this is what model airliners are about)
-your retracts will reduce drag
-the increased wing loading is unlikely to be noticed when it counts (such as a down wind turn).

The over-all impact resistance is lower but then a lot of what can go wrong is on the trailing edge and fairly well protected.

So overall I would say you are on the winning side with your modifications and we all can not wait to see it fly.

As a postscript, my comment on balsa was made because I personally do not like it as a building material. However that certainly does not mean it is not a valid building material and can not be put to very good use as you have clearly demonstrated.

Modify the 301 in many ways is the very answer. Serdar, what you are doing is the correct answer and I hope many follow. Well done.

Ian.
Old 03-13-2006, 11:02 PM
  #47  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

Hello Ian,

It is great to see your vote of confidence on all the changes I am making.

I would be a liar if I tell you I am not deeply concerned about the changes, since the only way to find out if I messed up is by flying the plane, and by then, it would be too late.

The biggest concern/unknown at this time is the angle of incidence of the stabilizer. Since I am making the leading edge fixed, I better get it right, or the plane may climb too steep or nose dive, especially with the smaller elevator surfaces.

Could you please recommend the angle of incidence of the stabilizer for level flight when the elevators are level with the stabilizer plane? Can I assume that the stabilizer should also have a 1 degree incidence like the wings?

Also could you please remind me of the CG, since the changes I have made have already changed it, and as such I need to return it to its original place. Please note that my model would be using the Alfa fans.

Thanks
Serdar
Old 03-13-2006, 11:14 PM
  #48  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

Serdar

Cheers -

Set the angle of incidence at zero degrees for the stabiliser (that is zero degrees with respect to the carbon chassis).

Assuming you have the rear U/C legs in the same position as the original model, a maximum of 25 mm forward of that position will be a starting point for the C of G. If you have done something else let me know. The realtionship between U/C legs and C of G becomes quite important when discussing ROG. Otherwise such things as models leaping into the air can happen.

Ian
Old 03-14-2006, 01:44 PM
  #49  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

Hello Ian,

Thank you for your prompt response. I am NOT changing the main gear locations, and adding all additional hardware within the center line (parallel to the wing). The additional weight associated with the split elevator design will be counter balanced by the additonal servo for the extending flaps. The purpose is to minimize the need for additional dead-weight to balance the model.

I have also designed the stabilizer/elevator to maintain the original stabilizer surface control for the coarse adjustment of the stabilizer plane. In other words, I will be able to change the angle of incidence of the combined stabilizer/elevator all together. So, if the elevator is down (say 10 degrees), then if I adjust the stabilizer up (say 5 degrees), the entire structure will move up by 5 degrees, while maintaining the relative 10 degree position of the elevator with respect to the stabilizer.

So what if I set the stabilizer incorrectly and crash the plane: I hope the following step will help me save my hardwork:

For the initial flight, I will set the flaps at 0 degrees (fully retracted) and will temporarily glue them. I will use the flap servo to control the stabilizer (similar to the original kit), while maintaining the separate elevator control. I will set the (temporary stabilizer) servo for 0 degrees During the first few flights, I will adjust the stabilizer for level flight (if needed) and then measure the angle of incidence upon landing. This will provide the chance to fine tune the plane's attitude and handling. Once set, I will return the flap controls and set the stabilizer permanently.

Cheers
Serdar

Old 03-21-2006, 05:31 AM
  #50  
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Default RE: EDF Airliner build thread

Progress continues.

Frontier airlines have this fabulously rich green colour on their engine cowlings and this has come up a treat. The engine might suffer minor ground strike, so be sure to use only polycarbonate paint as an acrylic will likely flake. I am looking forward to their assembly to the model. The green will off-set the white body wonderfully.

The tail plane is nearly complete and only requires the addition of silver vinyl (no balsa here).

Although I am jumpy around a bit with various sub assemblies –it really makes no difference to model construction. Final assembly is when all the parts are bolted together.

Anyone else started their 301?

Ian.
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