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Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars

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Old 03-08-2008, 10:37 AM
  #51  
shschon
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars

Realflight Website:

http://www.realflight.com/


Retailer website
http://www.towerhobbies.com/


Try it out you can usually find one you can try for free at a good sized hobby shop.

I have FMS and realflight. After first try of Realflight I never look back. You really get what you pay for.

Also these RC sims are reproducing the flight characteristics of RC models, NOT THE REAL PLANE. You give description of real plane you won't get the same response as a RC model.

As to the A-10 in realflight add-on 3, don't expect too much. It is one of those plane models in real flight add-on that have some issues. It floats too much when you try to land.

ORIGINAL: websterphreaky


ORIGINAL: RysiuM

Yes, I used FMS. I found FMS is often "to easy" to fly - quite unrealistic. There are many aspects of flying physics not implemented in there therefore many models don't fly like a real one, especially at the low speed or high angle of attack. Actually for A-10 it may by OK, as A-10 supposed to fly on the wing and that part of simulation is OK in FMS. But as soon as you slow down to stall speed and then apply control inputs the FMS does not behave naturally. For most propeller powered planes I found Real Flight (G2 or G3) quite good. I simulated GWS C-47 which in the simulation flies 100% like my real one with the only exception of taxi - the real model is not as responsive to the rudder input as the simulated one. I have also simulated few 3D planes and RF was very accurate - saved me few bucks as I was prepared for weired slow speed behaviour during the maiden flight.

I don't have all disks for RF so I did not try A-10, but I'm going to buy Add-Ons Vol3 with Warthog, then I will be able to modify all values to Guanli model's data. Then I can tell.
I've tried the Demo's of "ClearView RC Simulator" (kind of cheezy, the scenery is just a picture file), "RC Flight Master" ( either cheezy picture scenery or computer generated files not much better than FMS), and the nicest one but expesive "PRE-Flight RC Simulator" (too limited on flight models). I couldn't find any info on your Real Flight simulator. Where is that one listed on the web?

I disagree on the flight physics employed in FMS and I think most of their serious sim model developers would too. I talked to a couple of the FMS model developers and they have told me that they put in 12 to 20 hours of computer design time on the available kit planes and heli's airframes and flight characteristics files. My son and I are working one guy on a sim model of a super accurate 1/7th scale "gas" AH-1G Cobra we are building from scratch. I flew the AH-1G in Nam. The Dev is telling me to plan for a good 30 hours computer time from him based on the info we give him.

Perhaps some of the FMS sim devs are sloppy on the physics, but I noticed that two of the three Simulator programs above, either use the same FMS models or let you import the FMS sim models. They can't be bad if "pay for" Simulators uses those sim models.

Anyway, we're hoping that the sim model we're having made will be accurate enough to practice with.

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Old 03-08-2008, 07:14 PM
  #52  
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars


ORIGINAL: shschon
I have FMS and realflight. After first try of Realflight I never look back. You really get what you pay for.
I second that. I have both - installed but FMS is just to enjoy the view of the plane not the flying properties. The problem in FMS is that the program has very simple flying physics regardless of the model, and the model data input parameters to built in functions. It doesn't work that way. I don't know why it is like that but in example if Cap 232 has the same dimmensions and profile as Extra 300 it doesn't fly like Extra.

Missing in FMS is in example propwash affecting control surfaces, ground effect, tip stall, engine torque - just to name few. But it is great free simulator to learn "which way is up/down and left-right". I used it a lot before I got RF G2. I tried RF 3 and 4 and they are even better, but not as much to be worth buying new top of the line PC.

ORIGINAL: shschon
As to the A-10 in realflight add-on 3, don't expect too much. It is one of those plane models in real flight add-on that have some issues. It floats too much when you try to land.
Man, I just ordered Volume-3. I will try to replicate this Guanli A-10 and see how it goes. GWS C-47 worked great and it is 100% accurate to the flying real model.
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Old 03-08-2008, 08:28 PM
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars


ORIGINAL: cyclops2

The most accurate & realistic military aircraft simulator is....... Jayne's..Fighters Anthology.

It had full scary , unexpected flat spins. In correct Delta wings. The A-10 is fantastic against ground and air with cannon.

Stall warnings, body shudder, Targets track and fire on you. Waddle or die.

Has most every jet, bomber & heli.

Great for us frusrated & grounded fighter jocks.

Rich

I think we're talking about RC Model Simulators here, not FPS for hundreds of bucks. I flew real combat 1969 - 71, anything simulating that on a computer screen is a "game".
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Old 03-09-2008, 02:10 PM
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars


$20 2 discs. You can fly in or out of the plane, zoom out to practise flying and landing, plus it will stall the plane & collapase the landing gear if you are abusive or lazy.

No, you can not plug in your Futaba transmitter. But for getting the hand - eye cordination, it is great.
How many of us have a live firing A-10 ?

Enjoy

Rich
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Old 03-12-2008, 02:19 AM
  #55  
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars

I installed Add-ons volume 3 and started to play with A-10. I took measurements from Guanli model and it was around 33% of the scale of A-10 that came with add-ons 3. I made sure, that I got the CG, Landing gear and weight right. I also "converted" it to EDF with simulating fan units for the thrust that I got.

Now for the flying I found it just flies exactly the same as Guanli model. Takes forever to lift off, and then long flight in the ground effect to pic up some speed. Then the model can cruse. If I tried to force the model up it will end up in high angle of attack and then these engines can not overcome the drag, so model eventually will fall down.

Then I increased engine's rpm about 30%. This is different kind of flying. Model does not go unlimited vertical (the static thrust is about 15-20oz, but climbs very well. All these things listed in the ad are possible (rolls, inside and outside loops). So the model can fly very well just need much more than stock power. Model doers not float on landing - it behaves exactly the same way as it did at the field.

I noticed very strange thing on RF G2. When I put the model vertical until it looses all speed it goes into spin and never recovers. I wonder if this is only RF G2 bug or the real model will do the same.
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Old 03-12-2008, 12:50 PM
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars

Is this sim model of the Guanli A-10 exportable to use on the FMS Simulator program? If it is, can I get a download from you?
Interesting results, should help decide which direction to go for updated motors and battery.


WARNING on NitroPlanes.com !!

While we're on the subject of this Guanli A-10 which it seems we all bought from Nitro Planes (AKA RaidenTech, AKA eGrandBuy.com and few other AKA's - watch for the SAME phone number!) These guys can be real jerks. I decided to buy my youngest son a 4CH FW-190 they sell (also Gunali) for $89. When the box arrived and we opened the shipping box we were shocked to find that they INSTEAD sent us a 4CH ME-109!! (apparently their dope shipping clerk can't tell the difference between FW-190 and ME-109)

The order emails they sent us clearly stated I ordered the FW-190 and the shipping manifest on the box said FW-190, but it was an ME-109 in the box. I tried calling their phone number 25 times in one day - either busy or no answer! I tried to clear this up with their "online chat" agent, who torld me to "call them" - that was a waste of time! I Emailed them three times in two days, telling them to correct their mistake, send me a return prepaid shipping labels and ship me the FW-190 we ordered. Finally three days later, they wrote "ship it back (at your expense) and we'll give you a shipping credit" !! B S, it was their goof!

I've ordered two other planes and a Heli from them before (thank god they got those right), and this is a terrible way to treat a customer. I will never buy from them again. So BEWARE of this dealer. You'll never get through to them by phone if you have a problem and you'll be paying to return any item that's wrong or defective.
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Old 03-12-2008, 02:00 PM
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars


ORIGINAL: websterphreaky

Is this sim model of the Guanli A-10 exportable to use on the FMS Simulator program? If it is, can I get a download from you?
Interesting results, should help decide which direction to go for updated motors and battery.
No. Real Flight G2 in Add-Ons Volume 3 has giant scale turbine A-10 simulated (it's about 20lb model). I used this model (flying profile) and changed all parameters (measurements and weight) from Guanli Styro model, then I changed powerplant to EDF using similar to GWS EDF-55 (it was quite tricky to get the trust numbers right). Simulated model weight 1.6lb and depends on power (easy controlled by number of cells) it behaves like with stock motors or simulated brushless setup.

I really like RF G2 because it gives the "feel" of the model and it is easy to check it the model "can do that" without breaking it into pieces. Real Flight has something in it (I don't know how it works) that the flying characteristics depends not only on measurements and profile, but it varies from one model to another. In example if you modify CAP 232 and put all measurements from GP Patty Wagstaff Extra it will not behave like the real model. But if you modify Extra 300 and put exactly the same numbers, it will fly like a real one. Something is telling me, that RF G2 has some "hidden" calculations that varies from model to model. This is why it is important to modify the same airplane type to achieve replication of your model. I did it for many of my models and results were amazing.

Sorry for your messed up order at nitroplanes. I have read about them and theirs terrible customer service many times. If you get lucky and your order is not messed up, package is not damaged or factory did not screwed up, you can get good deal from them. If you have problems (and it happened many times) better take the loss and save yourself from frustration. I guess not having customer service is the reason for their low prices. Unlike Walmart, they don't get any returns from customers
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Old 03-12-2008, 10:41 PM
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars


ORIGINAL: RysiuM


ORIGINAL: websterphreaky

Is this sim model of the Guanli A-10 exportable to use on the FMS Simulator program? If it is, can I get a download from you?
Interesting results, should help decide which direction to go for updated motors and battery.
No. Real Flight G2 in Add-Ons Volume 3 has giant scale turbine A-10 simulated (it's about 20lb model). I used this model (flying profile) and changed all parameters (measurements and weight) from Guanli Styro model, then I changed powerplant to EDF using similar to GWS EDF-55 (it was quite tricky to get the trust numbers right). Simulated model weight 1.6lb and depends on power (easy controlled by number of cells) it behaves like with stock motors or simulated brushless setup.

Sorry for your messed up order at nitroplanes. I have read about them and theirs terrible customer service many times. If you get lucky and your order is not messed up, package is not damaged or factory did not screwed up, you can get good deal from them. If you have problems (and it happened many times) better take the loss and save yourself from frustration. I guess not having customer service is the reason for their low prices. Unlike Walmart, they don't get any returns from customers

I guess my Son and I are going to have to scratch together some bucks and buy Real Flight soon.

re. The jerks at NitroPlanes, - I called Discover Card and filed a "Dispute" with NitroPlanes charge. Mailed them a copy of my order confirmation and pictures of the shipping manifest and a pictures of the wrong plane in the shipping box. Discover Card froze the CC payment to NitroPlanes and has written them a letter telling them to rectify the order with return shipping label and shipping the right plane to us. I won't have to pay until Discover sees this happen.
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Old 03-12-2008, 11:59 PM
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars


ORIGINAL: websterphreaky
re. The jerks at NitroPlanes....I won't have to pay until Discover sees this happen.
Prices at Nitroplanes a going to go up
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Old 03-14-2008, 10:01 PM
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars


ORIGINAL: RysiuM


ORIGINAL: websterphreaky
re. The jerks at NitroPlanes....I won't have to pay until Discover sees this happen.
Prices at Nitroplanes a going to go up
Hey, I posted a ranting complaint about this lousy CS treatment from them on the NitroPlanes section of RCUniverse forum for all to see .... guess the public flogging got some attention, because I just got two emails from NP - one was a FedEx notification that they shipped out (I'm assuiming) the right (FW-190) plane, and another email with a Prepaid FedEx return shipping label for the wrong (ME-109) plane they sent.

Kicking some public ass works. My youngest son will be all smiles soon.
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Old 03-19-2008, 02:50 PM
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars

RysiuM,

Where did you get the pilot to use in the cockpit of your GL A-10? What scale is the pilot and what is it made of? Extremely light? Looking for one of the correct scale and lightness to use on my youngest sons GL FW-190 (we finally got it from NitroPlanes).

Also, any progress on your choice of A-10 replacement brushless motors, speed controller and battery size/type/brand? What brands and model numbers?

You're the guru here on the GL A-10 so far.
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:35 PM
  #62  
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars


ORIGINAL: websterphreaky
Where did you get the pilot to use in the cockpit of your GL A-10? What scale is the pilot and what is it made of? Extremely light?
Please don't laugh. I carved them from pink foam. He is not really scale looking pilot, as I'm not really an artist.. But because he is small and behind the glass, the paint did good covering job.

ORIGINAL: websterphreaky
Also, any progress on your choice of A-10 replacement brushless motors, speed controller and battery size/type/brand? What brands and model numbers?
Yes. My ordes was just shipped today. I hope to get it this or next week. Two TowerPro n20 ESC and two HXT 2435 (4040kv) Bl motors. I read that this motor is good combination for EDF-55. I will see when the order arrives.
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Old 03-20-2008, 12:11 AM
  #63  
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars

Well with Pink foam you did a pretty damn good job, could have fooled me, thought it was store bought!

All I could find that would fit under the canopy of the GL FW-190 (a figure only 1-1/2 to 1-3/4 inch high) are the last ones on this site: http://www.hobby-lobby.com/pilots.htm

The "SIR312 Fighter 1:12 Scale Pilot Head ..... $ 4.60" could pass for a WWII german pilot if I repaint him with a green uniform. SIR412 Cougar 1:12 Scale Pilot Head ..... $ 4.60 could work in the A-10, but I don't think that there is anyway I can get the canopy off now.

Say, I have a Global Tequila Sunrise 25 (glow) I never built, about 2 years old in the box now. Noticed one guy here on the forum converted one to be "e powered". I think I may take a stab at it so I wrote him to ask what he used for the conversion. I have a much larger 45 Tequila Sunrise I fly Nitro, but a small electric might be fun too.
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Old 03-20-2008, 09:40 AM
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars

I tried 1:12 heads but they are way too big. This Guanli A-10 is about 1:20 scale so 1:12 scale pilot looks unreasonable big. This is why I decided to carve something by myself.[8D]
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Old 03-22-2008, 12:15 AM
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars


ORIGINAL: RysiuM

I tried 1:12 heads but they are way too big. This Guanli A-10 is about 1:20 scale so 1:12 scale pilot looks unreasonable big. This is why I decided to carve something by myself.[8D]
Found a different pilot figure at the local Hobby People shop, it's smaller than 1/12th scale and fits the Guanli FW-190 perfectly. http://www.hobbypeople.net/gallery/553220.asp While the figure isn't really a WWII German pilot, it's close enough. They only had ones with the red leather "skull cap" helmet, but we thought it still looked cool as a contrast to the primarily shades of green camo FW.

Speaking of the Guanli FW-190, a bit disappointing model, but my kid is still happy to have it (finally). 4 CH - Throttle, Rudder, Elevators and Ailerons. 7 cell 8.4v 650 mAh NiMH battery. Construction is on par with the A-10, bit soft styro, details aren't bad and some details like the canopy are quite nice for the price. But some things in the engineering of the kit stink. The stabilizer is about 2 degrees off from the plane of the wing at the best we can fit it. No matter what you do to adjust parts in the cut out they made, it never lines up. You'd have to start cutting styro to get it right. Also the engine mount (balsa) built into the styro cowling makes the brushed motor off center to 2 o'clock by a 1/4 inch. It look noticeable lop-sided from the front (see pictures). The landing gear wire is even worse (softer) than on the A-10. We'll definetly have to replace that after a couple hard learning landings. The tail wheel is horrible, wobbly and we had to engineer a way to keep wheel on straight because it wanted to slide around the bend in the wire, which is too small diameter. Rudder steers the tail wheel. Again, sloppy engineering on small things to bug you. Typical Commie Chinese sloppy manufacturing.

The servos are crap as usual and it again comes with a POS 27mHz AM radio (we'll make a couple test flight with that, then replace the radio), trouble is that you can't get to the rudder and stabilizer flaps servos to replace them where they were pre-installed. The brushed motor seems to make lots of torque and it feels strong enough for good flight. We'll see next week or so. The access hatch to the battery and recvr compartment is an excellent fit and the compartment is big.

Think we'll write up a review of the kit for the Forum after we've flown it as is.

I still like the first electric plane I bought from NitroPlanes (guess I was lucky), it's small park flyer (lot's of small parks and ball-fields near us). The plane is a "Exceed RC" 3 CH J3 Piper (Throttle, Rudder, Elevator). Much nicer Styro than the Guanli or GWS planes. It has a brushed motor and 7 cell NiMH 650 mAh battery, but the plane is so well engineered aerodynamically that it flies very well under 1/2 power for 10 -12 minutes easily in light wind from a rolling take off - up in the air in less than 25 feet. Comes with a strange 3 CH Transmitter that has a slide pot for the throttle and joy stick for the Rudder / Stabilizer. It's still 27 Mhz, but at least it's FM digital proportional and not AM junk like the Guanli kits.

Say, did you try a higher mAh rated (same 9.6v) battery with the stock A-10 engines and ESC? I have a Watt-Age 8 (4 x 2 AAA inline) cell 9.6v 800 mAh battery that weighs about the same. Think it's worth trying, or would it burn up the stock ESC or motors? (We're still learning the in and outs of electric powered - we've also been glow or gas heli's and planes).

take care!
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Old 03-29-2008, 07:22 PM
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars

My UH order arrived - not bad: 8 days (including weekend) from placing the order to arriving it at my door. The lowest shipping (AirMail).

First thing - the motor I ordered was HXT 2435 (370S) 4040kv Brushless Inrunner (see picture below), what I got was the same looking motor but gold instead of purple and the name on the motor was: TURNIGY AERODRIVE xp B2435-4040. I don't know either brand so I don't really care - both are specified as 4040kv, and have the same size and weight. I believe this is the same motor, and brand name is not important. I will not complain about good working motor for 17 dollars.

The second thing as I expected, the motor does not fit GWS EDF-55. This fan can accept motors up to 23.80mm diameter, but this brushless motor is 24.20mm dia. Now don't cream at me . I put the motor on my lathe and I took 0.2mm of the case 14 mm long. It did not hurt the motor but mad it fit int EDF very nicely. The shaft is 2mm so no problem here.

And I should add, that I'm experimenting on my spare EDF unit (the old type with orange rotor). I programmed ESC to the safest parameters (very low timing) and then run it on 2s LiPo. BTW I ordered also Tower pro programming box - very easy to program their ESC.
At WOT the fan got 22k rpm at 6.8V taking 8.7A. This is way to low than I expected. I was looking into 27k rpm from 2s LiPo and current around 12A. This means for that voltage probably the better engine will be something around 5000kv.

Anyway, since my setup does not give me the thrust I wanted, I connected 3s Lipo and measured that. I got around 28-30k rpm (couldn't measure accurate as the EDF unit tried to ingest my rpm meter) and the current was around 15A. This is more like the right power for this bird.

So I will need 3s battery that can deliver 30A const (probably 2500mAh will be OK) and this plane will do all the acrobatics that are specified in the ad.
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Old 03-29-2008, 10:39 PM
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars

Good news - bad news.

These fans are not GWS units. It looks more like a copy.

Bad news: I made a special tool to pull the fan out. It was sitting very tight. I used 25mm M2 screws that I screwed into the shaft and hard bent hard steel wire with hooks at the end that grabbed the fan be the hub. Thys way puling by the wire against the M2 screw at the center Slowly I was able to take out the fan out of the metal "shaft adapter". So far it is like GWS. Now the shaft adapter does nothave a set screw. It is press fit on the motor. No way to take it out. Even heated with torch did not want to let go. It is not necessery to remove the adapter before removing the motor. There is no center part in the fan unit like GWS has. So now I have plastic fan rotor, but I don't have adapter. I'm going to make them myslef on my mini lathe if I will not be able to buy new GWS rotor or adapter.

Good news: brushed motors installeed in A-10 are 24.20mm diameter. And, surprise, the fan unit can take my BL motors without turning them down. They will slide down easy.

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Old 03-30-2008, 09:37 PM
  #68  
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars

Thank you for your post , very knowledgeable. I plan to mimic your set- up if you are ok with it. I want to get the most out of my plane and spend the least on it as possible. keep me posted on how things turn out and your next set of mods. I am getting better at flying mine( get it in the air on most attempts) and plan on ordering a new kit and upgrades soon.

Have a great week!!

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Old 03-31-2008, 12:54 AM
  #69  
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars

Now I am very confused about GWS EDF-55. What is net style, what is old style? I have seen at least three versions:
1 - with orange rotor and metal hub pressed into the plastic. Two set screws attaching it to the motor shaft
2 - With black rotor and metal round hub but screwed to the plastic rotor from the front. Exactly like the one on Guanli, but instead of press fit it has two set screws to attached the hub to motor shaft
3 - The same as 2 but the hub is D-shape and the rotor has D-shape hole (not the round one).

So Simply because I did not know what I need to buy, I made the shaft adapter myself. It is exactly like the type 2 - I did not have set screws laying around, so I used some 2-56 laying around. I will replace them with 2-56 set screws. Actually I made three of them because the first one was all done, when I screwed up the shaft hole. I drilled exactly 2mm hole, and I found it was way too lose. Then i measured the engine shaft and it was 1.97mm diameter.

Now I have some pictures to show.

1. How the motor is mounted after I removed the fan rotor
2. This is the original adapter. It is press fit. I tried to take it out - did not work. I heated it wit the torch to the melting point and it still did not want get loose. I gave up. No way to reuse this part. If you want to upgrade to brushless buy set of 55mm rotors with corresponding hub.
3. This is my hub. you see the engine I turned to 23.85mm dia, so it fits standard GWS EDF.
4,5. The engine mounted in GWS EDF-55. You can see that the engine I got is not the same I ordered. But it does the job, so I will not complain. Replacing one unknown brand with another does not make a difference to me


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Old 03-31-2008, 01:14 PM
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars

One question how did you get the edf unit out of the foam enclosure( engine pod)?
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Old 03-31-2008, 01:38 PM
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars


ORIGINAL: Spawn2300
One question how did you get the edf unit out of the foam enclosure( engine pod)?
I did not. The EDF Unit on the picture is my spare GWS EDF-55. I used for testing the engine performance. Original duct are still in the plane and I don't need to remove them to replace the motor.

The good thing about the duct in A10 is, that unlike the GWS unit it does not have the center piece (just two tabs for mounting screws). This way I'm going to attached the hub to the motor first, and then insert the motor from the back of the duct. When motor is in place the rotor will be placed from the front. I made my adapters 4.57mm diameter (the hole in the rotor is 4.60mm) so the rotor slides much easier. This extra 0.03mm made a big difference but does not create any slack. So the next time I will need to replace the rotor it will be easy to slide it off by hand (no special tool will be required).
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Old 03-31-2008, 03:34 PM
  #72  
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars


ORIGINAL: RysiuM

My UH order arrived - not bad: 8 days (including weekend) from placing the order to arriving it at my door. The lowest shipping (AirMail).

First thing - the motor I ordered was HXT 2435 (370S) 4040kv Brushless Inrunner (see picture below), what I got was the same looking motor but gold instead of purple and the name on the motor was: TURNIGY AERODRIVE xp B2435-4040. I don't know either brand so I don't really care - both are specified as 4040kv, and have the same size and weight. I believe this is the same motor, and brand name is not important. I will not complain about good working motor for 17 dollars.

The second thing as I expected, the motor does not fit GWS EDF-55. This fan can accept motors up to 23.80mm diameter, but this brushless motor is 24.20mm dia. Now don't cream at me . I put the motor on my lathe and I took 0.2mm of the case 14 mm long. It did not hurt the motor but mad it fit int EDF very nicely. The shaft is 2mm so no problem here.

And I should add, that I'm experimenting on my spare EDF unit (the old type with orange rotor). I programmed ESC to the safest parameters (very low timing) and then run it on 2s LiPo. BTW I ordered also Tower pro programming box - very easy to program their ESC.
At WOT the fan got 22k rpm at 6.8V taking 8.7A. This is way to low than I expected. I was looking into 27k rpm from 2s LiPo and current around 12A. This means for that voltage probably the better engine will be something around 5000kv.

Anyway, since my setup does not give me the thrust I wanted, I connected 3s Lipo and measured that. I got around 28-30k rpm (couldn't measure accurate as the EDF unit tried to ingest my rpm meter) and the current was around 15A. This is more like the right power for this bird.

So I will need 3s battery that can deliver 30A const (probably 2500mAh will be OK) and this plane will do all the acrobatics that are specified in the ad.

I have to say that I am completely confused in your postings with what fits the Guanli DF and what doesn't, which brushless motors are a "drop-in" replacement and which aren't, or what you actually bought or had delivered and can it mount in the Guanli ... not the GWS DF's.

First I think that you need to not refer to anything GWS, it's confusing the issue here - upgradingh the Guanli A-10. The Guanli models are not GWS, but only "rip-off" copies (some good and some not so good) of the GWS models - the A-10 in particular is NOT an exact copy. From measuurements I've read, the Guanli is slightly smaller and might actually be heavier - GWS Wingspan: 38.5", Guanli: Wingspan: 34.5" and GWS: Weight: 15oz - Guanli Weight: 16 oz . The DF nacelle are not the shaped the same either, I looked at one at the local hobby store. Certainly the engine mounts wouldn't be the same I seriously doubt that Guanli is buying GWS EDF-55 units from a company that are ripping off designs from. So I wouldn't think any comparison is justified.

One thing you need to understand is that the (Red) Chinese never have or use the same component inproducts from day to day or week to week, on anything that they make. I have been dealing with Chinese manufacturers in the electronics and networking industry for 10 years and that has driven us nuts in trying to repair products they make! China is like early 1900's England and pre-post war Japan - a "Cottage Industrial" system. A "large" component mfr or "assembler" with the "brand name" you see on the product, goes to each of their "cottage" (and they ARE often a cottage or garage) small component makers daily to see who's under-bidding who for a part that the "big guy" is using in the assembling of a product. That worked fine in Britan, Japan or Taiwan where there was and is HONOR and pride and CONSISTENCY in manufacturing; but the Red Chinese have NONE of this. And that's why most things like iPuds, Macs, TV's, Radio, Networking hardware, Shavers, Toasters, etc. etc. are GARBAGE. That's why your brushless motors didn't match the specs or have the name you expected. Too many Red Chinese Mfr's are shoddyand allow things like radiator chemicals, lead or other lethal products in what they make and sell to the West.

Some of us that want to upgrade the Guanli A-10 don't have a lathe to make adapters for motors that were intended for a GWS to try to make work in the Guanli or turning motor housings down.

Also confused about your comments on the disassemly of the EDFs on the Guanli. Something about how or why it didn't come apart easily or at all. It was in another posting you had done. Can you re-explain how the disassembly went and how to do it or watch out for?

Lastly, is there ANY brushless motor that is an exact match in physical size and mounting for hte stock motors? I'd rather spend another 20 bucks than have to pay a local machinist with a lathe $120 buck per hour to modify it and the mount.

Thanks for your experimentations.
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Old 03-31-2008, 06:29 PM
  #73  
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars

Wow, so much reading and information about (Red) Chinese products. Obviously I can not make any general statements as my experience is based on only one Guanli's A-10. Maybe there are different versions of A-10 under the name Guanli, and they may use different components. I simply don't know. This is why I attach pictures and take all measurements so if you see some similarity, it is a chance, your model has the same components as mine.

Like I wrote above, I have seen three different rotor designs from GWS (brand name). I have one spare GWS EDF-55 unit that I used for DF experiments. It is much easier to try different motors in that stand unit instead of trying to handle the whole Guanli plane. But because of all similarities between GWS EDF and EDF unit built inside my A-10, I can expect quite similar performance (within 10-20% error margin probably).

This is for explanation how GWS got mixed here My apology, if it was confusing.

Now explaining the confusing parts. I used lathe because I have one - lucky me. If you don't have lathe you can not make your own parts and you are stuck with buying probably GWS parts. There is no way, you can reuse rotor adapter from Guanli A10 - the aluminum tube that is press fit on the stock motor shaft. I tried to use 5-ton press, bearing puller, even heat it with torch. This thing did not want to slide of the original motor shaft. The first adapter I scratch badly, trying to remove it. The other one I heated to the melting point and eventually it melted of the shaft. If they used glue, it must be a good one.

1. So if you replace the motor prepare yourself for replacing the entire set: Motor, adapter and rotor. My bet is that GWS rotor with adapter from EDF-55 unit will work (it did for me). In example I found at BP Hobbies page GWS EDF55 rotors for $2.50 and adapters (they call it Impeller Hub Set) for $4.50. I suspect that parts for RCMart DF55 may work too (DF55 Replacement Rotor for $9.95 and DF55 Replacement 2.3mm Rotor Hub Adapter for $5.95), but this one I'm only guessing. Just remember, when you buy motor, the shaft diameter must match the rotor adapter. GWS is designed for 2mm shaft, RCMart is for 2.3mm.


2. Disassembling the Guanli EDF was not easy, and couldn't be done using simple tools or hands. The reason for that is, that as it is very easy to remove the screw of the front of the rotor, sliding out the rotor of the adapter was quite challenging. The rotor sits very tight on the adapter. I don't know how other guys did it, but in my plane both fan units were sitting very tight. So here is what I did:

- I used 25mm M2 screw that I screwed in replacing original screw. This long screw went deep, but still was about 15mm between the front of the rotor and the screw head. This way I created the support point against which I could pull the rotor.
- 3mm hard steel wire bent in V and then two little hooks bent at both ends. This created me a tool (V shape) that I could use to grab by the rotor's hub (between fins).
- The last tool I used was spreading pliers. The kind, that when you squeeze the handle the jaws will open.
- Using these pliers between the V-end of wire and the M2 screw I was able to pull the rotor off the adapter. The force was quite big.

The same tool I used to push the original motor off the EDF unit.. I grabbed the plastic motor mount with the V-shape wire and use pliers to press on the motor's shaft.

Believe me, it took me about 30 minutes to make all these tools and 1 minute to disassemble the unit.

When you are disassembling the unit remember to not do the following things:

- do not pull the rotor by fins
- do not pull the unit by holding the plane or the engine necklaces
- do not pull the fan by holding the outer case or thee blades supporting the motor mount

3. About the motor that will fit the unit. Because the front of the motor mount is not going across the entire unit, but it has only two little tabs for the screws (see my picture above), most of 20mm motors may not fit. The key in this motor mounting is, that the motor is "held" around by the mount. GWS unit is designed for brushed motors - most of them are 23.85mm diameters. I couldn't find any brushless motor of that diameter. But my Guanli A-10 DOES NOT HAVE GWS UNIT. My A10 has EDF motor mount for motors that re 24.20mm in diameter (370 size?). Now finding any brushless inrunner of that size is quite a quest. Most of inrunners available are based on 20mm diameter, or 28mm (400 direct replacement). You can use any 20mm diameter motors but make sure the mounting holes are very outside and you will still need some spacer (like o-rings or something) that will secure the motor inside the mount.

The only motors I found of "Guanli EDF " size are:

- Feigao 280S (it is 24mm dia, 35mm long) but it has 2.3mm shaft so it will not fit GWS rotor.
- HXT 2435 (the one I wanted to buy)
- Turningy B2435 (The one I got)
- Great Planes Ammo 24-33 (or Ammo 24-45) but this one has shaft 3mm diameter so it will not fit the rotor adapter.

That's all.

If you are into experimenting with outrunners (like Go Brushless) you may figure out some mount that will fit this unit.
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Old 03-31-2008, 10:14 PM
  #74  
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars

I'm new to this message board, but I have been keeping up with your Mods on the A-10. I really appreciate all the info you have posted on here, I copied your nose gear setup on the A-10, it work so much better than the crap that came with the plane. This plane is extremally underpowered, on the first attempt to fly it, it took almost 100 ft to get it off the ground, and then at five feet off the ground a small gust of wind made it roll over and nose in the ground upside down. Broke the nose clean off, took it home and epoxied back together with added strips of balsa ply, also had to buy a new canopy. Plane looks great now!!! I bought a 3s 2300mah Lipo and a lipo saver for it, so hopefully it will have the juice it needs to get it in the air. I like the brushless route but not sure if I want to invest that much money in this plane.
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Old 03-31-2008, 10:37 PM
  #75  
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Default RE: Nitro Planes A-10 Warthog for 95 dollars


ORIGINAL: josephmichael83
I like the brushless route but not sure if I want to invest that much money in this plane.
I'm still keeping the upgrade price under the stock plane price. For two ESC, two motors and programming box I paid under 75 dollars (shipping included). I look at this from this point: if I trash the plane I will still have two motors and ESC for other projects, maybe twin
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