RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

All I can say is wow.You have done a nice job with your aircraft.I wish I could find some of your kits.I would convert my old byron set up to electric.Would love to do this project.Had one of your YF 22 Raptors.But sold before completing.Kick myself in the but now.Thank you for knowledgeable information.

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

What we need is some manufacturer to put this F-4 on the market as a kit. I have access to my old F-4 kit if I still wanted to make one that size. But it presents too many problems that I just couldn't get interested in it.

l. Any fan unit that it requires to power my F-4 kit cost a arm and a leg.

2. So does the very large ESC required.

3. And so does the "TON" of very large cell count batteries.

4. The fan unit it requires has a very short run time. Like about 3 to 4 Minutes at most.

All this just to have a larger F-4.

That is the reason for this F-4 being 55" in length. I feel this size has enough presence to impress anyone.

A mountain of study went into this F-4. This is the largest it could be and be powered by the Lander 19KV 90mm fan. I chose this fan because it is the most powerful fan of the price range that makes sense to me. $140.00+- for the unit, $130.00+- for the ESC, $80.00+- for the battery, $25.00+- for a BEC.

It is not that I can't afford the expensive stuff, I can, I was able to retire at 55 if that tells you anything. It just doesn't add up to me.

There are other fans that will fit here. Lander even makes a 90mm fan that produces more thrust and uses 10 cells. But there you go again, a whole lot more money and also a whole lot more weight increasing the wing loading drastically. To increase the power by adding more weight is stupid. The aircraft will not fly as well as if you left it as it was. This aircraft is "Bad to the Bone" as it is.

So where lies the problem with getting something like this on the market? There must be a dozen F-4 EDFs on the market. Why even E-Flite is coming out with a new one.

And what a joke that is !!! Look at the attachments here. One is taking the shot of the E-Flite F-4 and overlaying it on a scale 3-view matching the wingspans. The other is by matching the length. This thing is so far from scale I could take a Cub, bent the wings up, tail down, and come up with the same thing.

Here they are with a new F-4 on the market, costing about $1000.00 by the time you have it finished, and it looks like this!!! And this is one of the better looking ones out there.

Will it sell? Sure it will. Half the RC fliers out there don't even care if it is scale or even know it isn't scale. There are a lot of R/C fliers out there and few R/C modelers and there is a difference.

Why are all these EDF F-4s so far out of scale. Because they are being built by people who know nothing about F-4 Phantoms. They think you need to increase wing size to have a good flying F-4. They don't even know about lifting body technology. They don't even know about the balance of fuselage lift to wing lift of a F-4. Do their F-4's fly better than if they made them scale? No they do not.

Remember, just because a manufacturer is putting out a aircraft, it doesn't mean they know anything about aircraft.

I'm too old, retired, enjoying the hobby of RC after so many years of making a living at it and not getting to do or build what I wanted, I am not going back into the kit building business. (and I don't do movie work anymore either, LOL)

But I have the molds and plans for this aircraft. If anyone out there knows of someone who has the ability and the desire, I can tell you, there sure are a lot of modelers interested in this F-4.

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

Luke and George this is a good read .George i met you at the first Best in the West fan fly when you had your F-22 there. man i wouls love to be able to make some of your planes the Big F-4 for single Dynamax and the T-38 .just a shame the molds are not being used. i flew JHH jets back then ..but i was always impressed by how well your planes flew and how simple they were ...i loved yuor 38 man i wish i had one ...too bad we cannot get the molds dusted off,and waxed up .i work at edwards and im looking to retire from working on the B-2 and getting a glass bussiness going .again great to see you building ...i had herd you passed away ...glad to see you are alive and well .just wished your kits were still being made.the byron sized kits are perfect for some of the great 120 and up EDf fans. Best Regards Rodger.

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

Hi Roger,

I am sorry that I do not remember you by name Roger. In my travels I met a awful lot of people.

But I sure do remember all the "Best of the West" fan flys. Just like it way yesterday.

One of my favorite fan flys to go to. Such a great group of modelers and just about the friendliest guys one would ever want to meet.

I will never forget Bob Sumoski. Just about the nicest guy in the club. He even had me stay at his home while at the fan fly a couple of times. Now that is hospitality!!! And I even got to meet his wonderful wife.

If you are in the Muroc Model Masters club and still know of Bob, I sure would love to hear from him again.

And I still have video of my F-4 flying and hearing Lowell Wexler say on take-off: "Now that's power"

I am afraid that the rumor of my death is not correct. But that is not the first time I have heard that. I think it stems from the fact that I retired at age 55 and actually got out of RC at the same time. Why did I retire at 55? Because I could. Why did I get out of RC? Because after working for George Lucas at Industrial Light & Magic and running "Custom R/C Aircraft" for 20 years, I was just plain burned out. What people didn't know about me was that my son and I share the hobby of HO model trains and I decided to spend my time sharing that with my son.

But I am back doing RC again.

Take care and thanks for the nice words.

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

well i moved from Lancaster to Tehachapi and i lost track of Bob. last i herd he was having some Health proplems ...he was a diehard jet guy and loved flying ...he was a good friend and an inspiration. my Son and i enjoy flying R/C and it is fun to hang out with him,so i understand why you went to spend time with him. hope you continue to enjoy the hobby .you should see Lowell now ,big into big Turbine Jets ...did i say BIG!.hope Luke can get this F-4 done i cant wait to see how it flies.

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

George, glad to see you enjoying rc again, and also glad to see you enjoying your looonnngggg retirement!

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

George are you wanting to sell your 90mm F-4 molds ? i might be interested shoot me a E-mail if you are interested in selling or leaseing your molds
regards Rodger .....E-mail [email protected]

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

Dear Mr George Hello again.I 'm in love with yours T-38 .How can i find one?Do you have in stock any kit please.

I 'm your friend from athens with opel gt.

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

Hi Roger,

Needless to say these molds are something I cannot afford to have anything happen to them. The only thing I will offer anyone is that I could fiberglass a hard copy out of the molds and let someone make their own molds from it. And BTW. I wouldn't even want to guess how much it would cost to have these molds shipped anyway. They are quite heavy and large.

I will inform you, and all who are reading this thread, that this F-4 is in the process of being kitted by "Spring Air".

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

Yes, I remember you,

I have no kits laying around. You may contact "Iron Bay" but like everyone else, you probably will have no luck there.

The only kit T-38 I know of is owned by a friend of mine in our club. It is still in the box and I know he will not part with it. I do have a deal with him that if he ever does part with it, he will allow me to pull a copy off of it before he does.

Another very close friend of mine here in this area has one with a turbine in it.

This dear friend is the pilot for a corporation that owns a P-51 Mustang "Daddy's Girl" and actually took me for a ride in it. Not only did he narrate the whole flight, but he put it through every maneuver you can think of including combat maneuvers and then finished it of with a extremely low pass the length of "McClellan Air Base" runway at high speed. Needless to say, this is the dream of every modeler who has ever glued two sticks together. I'll never forget that day.

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

hey George thats cool as long as some one is kitting it ,i did'nt want to see it just sitting .i would have drivin to pick them up .but if Spring Air is going to kit it that is cool .too bad they could'nt beat E-flite to the market ...i know a bunch of guys would have bought them right now.

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

:D GEORGE ,WHAT AIRFOIL DID YOU USE ON F-4 ?? THANKS

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

Did you also send me a E-mail asking me this question? If so I answered it there. If that was not you, let me know and I will answer it here.

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

George go ahead and answer it here please. I'm interested as well.

Regards,
Bart

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

:DThanks for info and time.. Got your email.. As always, simple ,understanable answer..From someone who designs and builds "STUFF"... Your the Mythbuster of the R/C hobby..Thans again..RALPH :D

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

To me, I think airfoils is one of the most miss understood parts of model construction. So many model manufacturers and modelers have little or no knowledge or have ever studied airfoils and how they relate to model aircraft.

One very common phrase I hear from time to time is there is very little difference between models and the real aircraft. Right off the bat, this tells me this person has very little experience in designing and building model aircraft.

The only place this come any way near applying is if you are making some very simple type of scale aircraft. Like a CUB, some simple private type of aircraft, or some early type of bi-plane.

To put it in simple terms: The density of air in our scale is very different. The speed we fly at is very different. The weight of the aircraft is very different. What you are going to require the aircraft to do is very different. It goes on and on.

Many airfoils used on real aircraft will not even work in model form. When a aircraft is designed to fly at 400 MPH or so and has a airfoil for that purpose and you make it in model size, You will find that airfoil that worked doesn't work at model speed at all. The air going over that small wing does not have a chance to react to that airfoil.

So what do you run into when some manufacturer or modeler doesn't know this? You find that all kinds of things are being done and all of them do nothing but make it worse. Major down thrust and right thrust in engines. Wings set at positive incidances, tails at positive or negative incidances. You take these twisted up aircraft out, get them in the air, trim them out at your flying speed. Now just change the speed and see what happens. It no longer is in trim. Now try to land it. You got another hand full trying to hang on and get it down.

I have a friend who has a expensive kit of a GeeBee. Now there is nothing fun about a GeeBee in the first place, but I can tell you that a lot can be done to one that will greatly improve it's flying without deviating from scale to any point that anyone could ever notice.

This aircraft is so twisted up it isn't even funny. They even used the scale airfoil on it. And this airfoil will not work at the speed or this size in any way. Positive incidance in the wing and in the flight trim is the only thing that keeps this aircraft in the air. Changing the speed, doing any sort of maneuver, and especially trying to land this thing is a real night mare. And this pilot is a serious good flier and every flight is nothing but total nerve racking to him.

This is just one example. I could go on and on about this sort of stuff. But what I want you to do is go to that site where you can see my "Miss Champion" fly.

Everything is at zero on this aircraft from the engine back. The trims on this aircraft never changes from takeoff to landing and in between. I wish the person who filmed this filmed the whole flight. It is doing rolls, slow rolls, 4 point rolls, loops, inverted passes the length of the flying field. And I am not lying to you !!!! It would serve no purpose here for me to do that to you.

The only difference to this aircraft from total scale is the airfoil. The real aircraft has a fully symmetrical with the high point at 50% of the cord. It works on the real aircraft but doesn't come into real effect until the aircraft gets to about 300 mph. This model is not going there. The airfoil has been changed to a semi-symmetrical with a high point at 33%.

That is all it took. No twisting of engine or flight surfaces.

Now to answer the question of what airfoils are used on my F-4:

Major study, knowledge, testing here.

First thing one has to do is determine what type of performance one wants with this aircraft:

Did I want to go out and try to break speed records and have to fly the whole flight using energy management? NO!! Do I want the aircraft to have very short takeoff with considerable power and have excellent landing capabilities? YES !! Did I want the aircraft to be able to fly like a pattern ship and have it not bleed off energy in maneuvers? YES !! Did I want to be able to fly this aircraft without having it stretch to almost out of distinguishability. YES !! So I want this jet to have a speed of about 85 MPH in level flight.

The inboard section of the wing is fully symmetrical.

The outer section mates to the inner section, but is a semi-symmetrical airfoil. When these two different airfoils mate to each other the outer section actually winds up with about 1.5 degrees of washout. (Notice when looking at it, how the leading edge of the outer section is actually lower then the inner section.)

And the outer section goes from the semi-symmetrical at the base to Clark-Y at the tip. All this increases the lift of the outer section and makes the F-4 literally incapable of doing a tip stall.

I have intentionally stalled my F-4's at many air shows to demonstrate that all the F-4 will do when it comes to a stall is have the nose fall through and you are able to recover by simply pulling the nose up.

Filming flight is something I have difficulty with in this club. It is hard to find anyone who can even find a F-4 in flight through a camera. I myself have tried twice with my best friend flying it and just can't do it either. We are still working on it. But I will honestly tell you that this F-4 is something to see in the air.

Something else you may get a kick out of. I had a modeler from Michigan call me back in the kitting days. He and his friend both had my F-4's and they were entering them and flying them in PATTERN competition !!!! They had received waivers on engine size due to them being Duct Fans. I got a real kick out of that. But the more I thought about it, and having flown pattern myself, I realized that this actually could be done.

Try that with any other jet on the market.

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

:D IM MAKING MOLDS FOR HIS T-38 NOW

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

oh yeah ....i think i need to be on that list :D

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

Oh... sign me up...

Question for Mr. Miller,
I recently acquired a set of your A-10 plans. Do you have any advise that you could give? I would appreciate it very much...

Dave

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

I will give you suggestions, but you probably will not like them.

Decide right off what you are going to do with this aircraft. Then build it accordingly. If you are planing on going all out scale and entering it in competition, then you can figure you are going to wind up in the neighborhood of around twenty pounds at least. Mine weighed 21 pounds. Most others I have knowledge of weigh a lot more than that. And 21 pounds is just about at the limit for this aircraft to be a good flying aircraft.

If that isn't what you are building it for, then don't build it that way. LOL If you go look at the site that has my video catalog you will see two A-10's there. The second one was for a shop in Singapore, and was only for sport flying. It weighed only 16 pounds if I remember correctly. Now it was still total scale, but just didn't have a bunch of extra added detail and weight, was fiberglass fuselage and foam wings.

1. I believe the plans show my retract system I used and designed. Although it worked very well, I would go to Spring Air retracts all around. I know there are a couple companies that make custom scale gear for this A-10, but I believe they all weigh a ton.

2. If you are not building it for all out scale, it does not need those flaps. So save yourself some time and weight by not building them. This aircraft has one hell of a wing and airfoil on it. The flaps are only needed for show. Half the time I didn't even use then when flying my competition model.

3. Build the fuselage including the engine housings all as one piece and forget about hatching for the engine access. I think there are still companies that make the front and back engine housing pieces out of fiberglass. Get those and glue them on. Don't use them for the finish model, because I believe they are made out of epoxy and weigh a ton. Now give this whole than a very cheap but smooth finish.

4. You now have a plug. Take it and do a "One Off" out of fiberglass right off the plug using two layers of 6 ounce cloth, reinforcement in the strategic areas, and with Isophelic resin. In the end you will discover that not only is it a whole lot lighter, but it is stronger and also is not full of bulkheads and stringers. You won't have to eliminate the wood grain of the wood fuse or anything like that.

5. Go electric. Use Lander Fans. This allows you to save the weight of the glow engines, tune pipes sticking out the short housings, the placement of all the heavy fuel in a tank between the engines, no fooling with needle valves, fans unloading in the air and winding up too lean, or one engine failing. All this weight back here is not good. And you are definitely going to need nose weight no matter how you build this aircraft. So here you are with a aircraft with less weight behind CG and Batteries, ESC's, And a BEC that can be in the nose to balance the aircraft. Time to get with the new way of doing things.

6. The lighter and simpler you make this aircraft the more fun you will have with it. Never stop thinking of ways to save weight when building any model.

Well hows that for starters?

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

Hi George,

I will take that advise to heart! I really appreciate it. My opinion on weight is the same as you.

My plan is to power it with either 90mm or 120mm EDF units.

I thought your main retract setup was really ingenious! Simple and effective. But does make repair a bit more difficult... I plan on the e-flite 120-sized electric retract units.

Thank you again!

Dave

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

Figure what wheels you are going to use and what detail you are going to add to the struts. Then make sure those retracts can lift the wheels and detail. If they can't, return them and go to what you should use in the first place which is the Spring Air. LOL Also you want those main struts to come against a stop close to the wheels in the retracted position. That way, just like the real A-10, you can make a gear up landing and still be on the wheels. The mains rotate forward of CG when retracted and you are able to make a landing on the wheels and the rudders

My retracts worked outstanding except for the fact that unless the radio was on, you had to be careful when you backed the aircraft up on it's wheels otherwise it would motor the retract servo and the gear would collapse. But they gave me the degree of travel I needed to have them down in the scale position and up to the stops.

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

i too have a set of those a-10 plans...really love your work. the phantom was one of my favorites and i flew that in denver. i bought it off RCU with one wing missing and rebuilt it and it still flew AWSOME.. and would put a TGA f-15 to shame.

i have both the a-10 plans and a NIB f-4 kit... but i was waiting for the electrics to settle down and me to clear projects.. so when i do them i do them right.

i also have ahead of them a ETA f-89 that i want to electrify.

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

I don't want to hijack this thread or anything, but I have some pictures of a George Miller F-4 in construction. It is coming along, after Castle finally got an ESC to me, hope this one don't catch fire.

I can only upload a few pictures at a time, so here they are starting with the nose strut I made:

RE: George Miller F-4 Build - also, welcome George!
 

Ducting