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  1. #626

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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    I should have some time to do some testing tomorrow.

    I'm not all that sure that trying to address the ringing in software is going to be the best way to go. It will be good to get things working in the short term, but we really should figure out the hall issues that Gompy demonstrated and figure out any other problems.

    If we're getting inductive ringing in the inputs and outputs I think that will continue to be a problem. One quick fix would be putting some simple filtering in the wires/connectors from the sensor and to the HV board.

    When you mentioned ringing I googled up a good article on the issue. I probably should have known that with a noisy circuit with no filtering that uses unshielded wires going to both inputs and outputs that there could be problems like these. I'm just not good enough with electronic theory to figure these out without blundering into them first.

    http://www.digikey.com/us/en/techzon...ectronics.html

    If we're getting inputs like in the first scope picture, that's going to be a problem.
    http://www.electrofunnel.com/CDI-2012/index.htm

  2. #627
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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    For a few years ago w don't have neodeenmagnets
    We use the black less stronger magnets, you can see it on every older engine.
    We use still the same hallsensor and the same components fot the HV-board.
    So the only we have change is the neodeenmagnet.
    I think this kind of magnets are much to strong for the sensor.
    Inside the sensor there is also electrocs and thats very small.
    Maybe we distroy with the neodeenmagnets a part inside the sensor ??

    I think John is also over the years gone use the *super* magnets.
    With the simple boards there are no problems, but now we use advance boards with microprocessors it can be a problem.
    CU, Rob
    http://www.electronics.gompy.net

  3. #628

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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    Yes Rob, I tend to agree.

    Only magnetic flux can turn the hall effect on so it must be coming from somewhere in your demo.

    i.e. strong flux lines.

  4. #629
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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    In my refrigerator was formerly a magnetic tape, now there are 4 magnets on the corners of the door.
    The strength that I need to get the door open is now much more than before.
    Previously the door at night sometimes open his self, you have close the door very well with some pressure.

    The Hall sensors are not only much smaller but also more sensitive.
    CU, Rob
    http://www.electronics.gompy.net

  5. #630

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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    This is the A3240 from allegro and the magnet I use. (3mm x 1 mm)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #631
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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    I use now the same you show, but first I use the black magnets.
    To day I want to try test with the magnet tape.
    I make some nice round magnets and put them into the propholder.
    First I have to fix the shutter of the petroltank of my bike.
    I find petrol under the bike and petrol cost allmost the same like gold do.
    CU, Rob
    http://www.electronics.gompy.net

  7. #632
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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    Mmmm, after some tests I found a little problem.
    Magnetic tape have a NSNSNSNSNSNSNSNS at one side of the tape.
    Depending of the size of the tape the NS can be 1mm or 5 mm or maybe more distance from each other
    I have tape there is only 2mm between N and S, so I have to find me other tape.

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiXQILw4aw4[/youtube]

    BTW, some magnetic travel games have also small normal magnets, 3 till 5 mm.

    Found it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otz7tCe_AAo[/youtube]

    On the hallsensor there is the next codes.
    1026
    9868
    A (looks gotic)
    20E

    This sensor is much to sensitive, but with a peace of magnetic tape behinde the sensor you can make it less sensitive.
    With the magnet John use, the sensor is switching within 20 mm.
    If I put a little peace of magnetic tape behinde the sensor it will be 3 till 5 mm befor the sensor is switching.

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8qT35UHK6E[/youtube]
    CU, Rob
    http://www.electronics.gompy.net

  8. #633

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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55


    ORIGINAL: gr8flyer55

    Ok, so everyone is telling me that there is no truth to the notion about the software being flawed and that nothing burned up all of my transistors on my hv boards because the SCR just happened to mysteriously latch up?
    I just ain't see in' the big picture I guess.
    There's no sense arguing about it. I'll wait till my neighbor fixes it and just use it, although Nyemi's software still works perfectly, I'd just like to have a working changeable setup like the excel spreadsheet.

    If this hall sensor equipped ignition is no better than an old transistor and points ignition where if the ignition was on an the points were closed, engine not running, that would overheat the transistor, then why are all of us wanting to use it if it has the exact same problem?


    John
    Forget about this for a moment. I uploaded a video of your "Black Box ignition" It works perfect and gives a nice strong spark. No special sensor or magnet needed. The use of any good magnet and a standard RCXEL picup works great. I did PM you a link to the video. I took a look inside the "Black Box" and noticed a very good parts arrangement and the quality looks good. A lot of other units shown in this thread...looks like experiments. So you guys that read this thread...do not wate much time reading about all this other experimental stuff. Get a unit from gr8flyer.
    Imagination is far more important than knowledge. Albert Einstein.

    http://www.lambertsrc.com/

  9. #634
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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    ORIGINAL: bluejets

    This is the A3240 from allegro and the magnet I use. (3mm x 1 mm)
    Now I see I have the same sensor (the gotic A), there is only 20E on it.

    http://www.allegromicro.com/Products...-Switches.aspx
    CU, Rob
    http://www.electronics.gompy.net

  10. #635

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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    Thanks for the encouragement John!

    I viewed you video on Smokestack.com , very good. Thank you! Actually am getting orders from the advertisement already.

    John

  11. #636

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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    I see your point with the two magnets Rob!
    I use the Ss443r sensor which is a medium gauss trigger. Never had a problem with them at all. Turn on point and release point are a short distance with these sensors. Either way, we have to use the one shot circuit added from Bluejets to solve the problem completely.

    John

  12. #637

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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    Rob, my choice from Allegro would the A1104. This is what CH uses and works quite well also.


  13. #638
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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    The a3240e will be the same i use a1120e, this is showing on the website.
    They change the typenumbers, but the function isnt change.
    But I still have some questions about the sensitive.
    20 mm distance to switch is not wat i like.
    Even with the tape the sensor pickup the magnet very fast.
    I dont have any idea wat sensor will be the best.
    Also use the black magnets can be positive, even to use tape.
    CU, Rob
    http://www.electronics.gompy.net

  14. #639
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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    Hello John, FedEx has arrived including bomb-squads.
    Because no explosives were present they wanted to know what I was going to do with all those detonators.
    I tried to explain thats for the hobby, but the next four weeks I'm in a closed device for interrogation.
    I hope that they also have a hobby room and internet so I can follow rc universe building and optimize the CDI.
    Thanks for the box, I'm going to use it well and maybe this weekend I can run the Homie.

    Without a peace of magnet tape behinde the sensor, the switch time (on) of the sensor is ~30 degrees.
    If I put a peace of magnetic tape behinde de sensor, the switch itme (on) of the sensor is only ~12 degrees.
    A other positive effect of the tape, the sensor is shut off by the magnet at the backside of the sensor.
    There are sopme articles on internet who discribe this.
    CU, Rob
    http://www.electronics.gompy.net

  15. #640

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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    These are images from my test bed, white mark on the disc is the magnet.

    Only get one pulse per pass from my unit, no problem here.

    Maybe those that are having multiple switching should do some iron filing tests.
    See where the stray magnetism is coming from.

    My bet is too large or too strong a magnet.
    Also remember the steel shaft under the aluminium collar will re-direct magnetic lines of force if you have the magnet installed in the outer circumference as Rob's videos show.

    I always run my systems with the magnet installed on the side face of the aluminium dics. This does 2 things.
    1...stops the magnet flying out under centrifugal forces and
    2... stops any re-direction of the magnetic flux.

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  16. #641

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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    Hi Rob.
    I see you got the box. I hope everything I sent is in working order.
    Now you have a new heart for your Homie.

    John

  17. #642
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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    John, have you try Jakes timersoftware with a LED or bulb instead of a HV-board ?
    If the problem with Jakes software is there, you must have the same problem with a LED or bulb.
    The LED or bulb have to stay on, same like the timer the HV-board is set on.
    This test cost less, the (HV) transistor can't be damaged.

    I have a wrong candle in the Homie (big one) and can't use your sparkcap.
    Monday I can buy a new candle, over the weekend they are closed.
    Maybe I can try the old sparkcap from the flywheel ignition.
    CU, Rob
    http://www.electronics.gompy.net

  18. #643

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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    Ok, I've now tried the extra 10k resistor and .1uf cap on the input signal section of the ignition board to make it a one shot trigger per pulse on the hv board. While that works as it was intended, there are multiple pulses coming from the pic chip which really indicates where these are coming from, the pic chip and not the hall sensor.
    This is what I said from the beginning. We hooked it up to a scope and sure enough, there were the extra pulses. So, editing the lines for that condition to stop them works. However, it is now pointing to the MSD feature causing the condition!!
    Where the lines are deciding how many sparks to produce, and the actual instructions to produce those pulses to the SCR is giving us this condition. So, now we have to actually edit those instructions for a solid operation in the "engine not yet running" condition. Anything over 200 rpms gets us out of that routine and rpm then determines when the pulses will occur. This works fine in our tests so far as we can tell.
    Getting there guys! A few more edits and the source code is fixed.

    John

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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    I'm sorry Rob. I thought all Homies used the smaller sparkplugs like we have here in the U.S.
    You could temporarily use the old boot-cap from the old magneto to get it running for sure. I do have the larger 3/4" hex caps here. You can also use a Bosch shielded cap if you can find them there in The Netherlands.
    Things are so different in your country, I keep forgetting how easy it is here to get the correct parts you need.

    John

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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    I will post a picture of the large Bosch cap if you need to see it.
    It has a 1k resistor built into it also.

    John

  21. #646
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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    It can't cost me a fortune, but I have to wait untill monday.
    The old candle was broken, I can't start the engine with it.
    This candle I was found it into a box and the engine was started with it.
    I never have thinking about the sparkcap, from a magneto the size doesn't matter, the rubber cap will fit allways.

    I start to make a stronger HV-board and hope also more reable.
    No transistors and the HV will be shut off when spark is given and Voltage is high enough.
    It will be a very small board and also less components, like your board.
    The cost will be the same, there are no exotic components on it.
    I only have to build a test unit, hope this weekend to be done.

    The weather is bad, rain and cold, so test the homie is out of the question (I only build the CDI ready to use on the rig)
    CU, Rob
    http://www.electronics.gompy.net

  22. #647
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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    My 2 cents in the kitty.
    Well this is my first post on this web site but, I've been around for a while. I also have built several ignitions, mind you they were for drag racing and msd inductive with 40 amp coilcharging. Anyway, I agree with John that a one-shot should be used in this circuit (timing) along with a lot more filtering around the cpu and on the HV board. I see some people are trying to make this work without using an oscilliscope which is almost impossible. I also agree with John that there is a bug in the code with regrards to the ringing when the magnet is parked under the hall effect.

    The big thing about hall-effects is that they are not like a inductive pickup where there is a rise and fall in the signal and there is no signal if the magnet is not moving. The hall-effect will remain on so long as the magnet is at the pickup, so the cpu sees on,now is the cpu looking for a 'change' or just 'on'. If it is looking for 'on' then this could cause ringing. With MegaSquirt we get a lot of cpu resets from noise, I;m not saying this is a problem here but, from the schematics I've looked at there is almost no signal filtering on the HV board other than pull-up and pull-down resistors which will amplify any noise though the coupling cap. I would put a 5.6v zener between the signal and groundnext tothe scr gate to pull away over voltsand C7 should be a polarized cap tohelp with surges.

    All ignition coils produce ringing and it is not always easy to get rid of. Some circuits make use of a 'clamp' or a low ohmage current resistor, what works best depends on the circuit. All hall-effects have a gauss (g)rating that determines when the switch will pickup and drop out, this in turn determines the strength of the magnet needed and the distance between sensor and magnet.

    Part# /Operate Point (G) /Release Point (G)
    A1120 <50 (typ 35) >5 (typ 25)


    I hope I helped if not then it only cost me 2 cents.

    Ray
    Everything is easy......Once you know how.

  23. #648
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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    There are several causes that something is not working.
    Saturation of the coils / cores, time of opening and closing of the thyristor, interference / interference and so I can mention a hundred things that affect the CDI.
    Not everything can be solved with a scope, some things just happen.
    Remember that test reports are done in a laboratory environment and not to the hobbyist to the workbench.
    Most of what we have invented the model is perfected at the factory with a lot of money, and that is something we do not.
    We need experience of people who want to test, we have not that expensive devices to make it perfect.
    But that's no problem, it just takes a little longer, but do have more satisfaction when it works.
    CU, Rob
    http://www.electronics.gompy.net

  24. #649

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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    Hey Ray !
    First of all, welcome to the forum and our continuing software nightmare.
    Any and all suggestions are much welcomed and encouraged. You have excellent ideas, and there is always room for hardware improvement in this project. Basically, with the right software, (already proven to work) the hardware functions just about flawless. I've just got home from talking with my neighbor, who understands our problem now with too many pulses coming from the pic in in the below 200 rpm, engine not yet running mode of the software. It seems that a wrong bit is being set in one of the registers. Finding out which one and why it's doing this is our present concern. Once we locate the conditions causing the random bit setting, the few lines of code requiring the change will be put into the source code and recompiled for testing. He is looking at it right now to see where it is. He said he'll email the edits to me so I can post it here.

    I want to make use of your suggestions for the SCR gate overvoltage protection, since is a great idea and only one part easily soldered in place. Every idea is worth a look. I'm taking your 2 cents and investing it!

    Thanks again for your input Ray, much appreciated!

    John

  25. #650

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    RE: CDI gr8flyer55

    Hey...after reading Ray,s first post I am getting a lot more interested all of a sudden. I bet there is many more ignition buffs reading this thread...probably in several different languages around the globe! This stuff always did interest me. Wish I was a youn pup again!

    Capt,n
    Imagination is far more important than knowledge. Albert Einstein.

    http://www.lambertsrc.com/


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